Is Jesus God?

[KSublett]

John 10: 30 says it clearly. and answers the question short and simple.

John 10: 30 " I and the Father are one. "

But for those having gone through remedial reading 101a He did not say GOD and I are ONE.

Father, spirit (mother) and seeded son identifies the ALWAYS family of gods. God gave Jesus all of the AUTHORITY of these fathers, mothers (spirits) and son. God did not IMAGE forth three people as Philip clearly wanted to see when he asked "show us the father." Jesus was MADE BY GOD to be both Lord and Christ as the ANTITHESIS of the universal triads beginning in Babylonia.

Only after he was baptized did the visual aid of a DOVE pronounce Jesus as the Son of a Father and not the daughter of the Babylonian Mother.

In Ezekiel 8 the women worshipped Tammuz as their Messiah. This is why Christ in the prophets marks the Jews with a Covenant with Death and Hell. Inanna/Ishtar/Easter had to go into "hell" to bring Tammuz (saviour) back to life.

Click for the Women worshipping Tammuz while the men held their first sun-rise service worshiping Ishtar or EASTER.

MuTammuz

God called the worship of this trinity an ABOMINATION in the holy places

1Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God [Theos], the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord [Kurios] Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God [Theos] hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
both Lord [Kurios] and Christ.

Because the Kingdom does not come with observation meaning RELIGIOUS SERVICES, if you are trapped in an institution with a King set over you and a host of STAFF you have progressed BACK TO BABYLON which is defined for you in Revelatio 17-18.

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed,
do all in the name of the Lord Jesus,
giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other:
for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
whereby we must be saved.

Sorry but when you think that father, son and spirit are NAMES it is too late.

 

[MidniteWelder]

All of the material I will be using will be mine unless otherwise stated.
Thats fair
Mine in Blue

Things that are incommensurable cannot be measured on the same plain or compared with the same standard of measurement.
True point, although those things he reveals to us he reveals to us in perfection without error, albeit perhaps with some key points missing that he will build upon in his good timing.
An example would be the church teaching a concept for years and we going to church follow the pastor as opposed to following God.
As much as a pastor may be a truly God appointed shepherd of the flock, I have also found a pastor may repeat what he has been taught.
Then along comes God and says
"yeah well, it's actually more like this"
the once saved always saved concept would be one of these examples.

Any standard of comparison from within our own field of existence will never measure up to the reality of God. We can never truly understand God through anything learned within the framework of human experience. Human reason that is divorced from revelation can add nothing of value to the revealed text and can tell us nothing about God. Through scripture,
God allows us to see, in a limited fashion, some things about his nature, his power, his personality, his presence, his wisdom and his involvement in human affairs.
It's my belief he is involved in every step, every way possible. Whether he permits something or directs something.

Any concept of God that can be regarded as uncompromised must come from God’s own revelation about Himself.
Agreeing


THE NATURE OF GOD AND THE INCOMPATIBILITY
OF HUMAN INTELLIGENCE


The first thing that we must realize about the nature of God is that we can never sufficiently understand the nature of God.
Agreed again, Not until we're perfected, upon our resurrection. Yet between now and then, the process towards that perfection must be taking place since a sudden transformation would not be very plausible.
A sudden belief yes, a sudden relinquishing of everything one has ever known to take on the true nature of God within oneself?
Is a time process.
I doubt on ones judgement day one will be allowed to request to the judge a continuation of the proceedings to reconvene at a later date.
In other words. God would not allow a person who is still a sinner within their soul to be allowed into heaven.
That process of purification occurs here. Earth is our proving grounds. We don't get to still keep converting after we're admitted into heaven.

Perhaps the most sobering question which confronts us in this study is not how do we understand the nature of God, but how do we approach the Word of God to understand what God has revealed of himself? For the word of God to have its proper place in connection with the mind of man, it must be given its agential position. We must take everything that God has revealed about himself in scripture and allow the text to superimpose upon our minds a revealed image of his nature. Without the influence of scripture, any concept that one may have of God will always be the sole product of the individual. When one removes one’s self from the inspired text all that remains to fall back on is the uninspired world of human intelligence.

Yes, the way I like to look at it is...don't look at Gods word from our perspective...Look at it through God's perspective.
Our perspective leans toward taking scripture to either please or justify ourselves.
The word was not written to please nor cater to us but to glorify God.
I see believers do this continuously...and if it makes me angry to see I can't imagine how much fury it fuels for God's wrath.
Of course God has grace, but I doubt he would go against himself to admit grace to any still self seeking individual.

If we are to enter this study in earnest, we must first suspend for the moment everything we feel that we already know about God. Let us not be guilty of bringing anything of our own into this study. Human intelligence, being what it is, has the tendency to insist that scripture agree with long held, deeply rooted, and cherished concepts of God.
I'm not familiar with these deeply rooted traditions...and care not to study them.

We must be willing to set aside experiential logic and begin with the word of God allowing scripture to influence and entrain the mind.
This would be the easiest and most beneficial time God is able to get through ones head.

This means that we may need to change the way we think, the way we speak, the way we read scripture and certainly the way we understand reality. This may challenge many of our ideas about God, which, for some of us, may prove to be very uncomfortable.
Agreed, many people have a difficult time with changing the way they think or forgetting everything they've ever been taught because psychologically this is relinquishing a part of themselves. A belief that is part of their own character which one has held onto for so long. It helped build them in their process of growing up...even if built upon a crumbling foundation. They trust the crumbling foundation because it's what they are familiar with and is what they know...even though Gods solid foundation needs to replace many beliefs and concepts.
Self being the key word, selfish being the root motive. (aka: pride)
Phrases like:
"Thats the way I was raised" irrelevant..who says ones parents are right? is one still a teenager and haven't left under their parents roof"
"this is what my friends said" irrelevant...the blind cannot lead the blind
"this is what Ive always been taught in church" irrelevant...There is no perfect church except Christs church.
These are the things said by the blind still searching for answers.
If ones beliefs are wrong, regardless of how passionate about them they are...it doesn't make ones beliefs any more correct.

Nevertheless, the word of God must be allowed to overturn all unrevealed ideologies about the nature of God. Unrevealed ideologies are inherently the product of socialization. As such, it will prove a great hindrance to the development of a biblically constructed theology.



The Limited Nature of Revelation


When I speak of revelation, I am speaking of the Bible as the exclusive written representation of the mind of God given to us by the Almighty about himself. What I mean by limited is that God has not revealed everything to us about himself,
Of course not, certain information is on a need to know basis.
Some things God reveals to one person while keeps them hidden from another.
Certain people cannot handle certain info and keep it to themselves until Gods appointed time to release said info.
Therefore he only reveals certain secrets of the kingdom to chosen individuals...
I'm sure you know many things I don't, and likely cannot reveal them...unless God gives the go ahead.
There's a war, a spiritual one...and the enemy cannot know Gods plans.

Deuteronomy 29:29 and 1Corintheans 2:9-10. What he has revealed linguistically is found only within the Bible. Revelation is limited because of the limited capacity of the human mind to comprehend things it cannot envision and because of the inability of human language to explain things of the non-natural world. Revelation about God is very often anthropomorphic. This is because man can only understand that with which he has an experiential frame of reference. In order for God to reveal himself in scripture, he uses human language to present himself to us in terms with which we are all familiar and to which each of us can relate based on our own individual experiences. For example, in his relationship to man God speaks of himself as father, friend, shepherd, master, judge, king, and husband. He speaks of such physical traits as hair, wings, thigh, hand, arm, heart, and bosom. He speaks of character traits such as love, knowledge, wisdom, hate, will, anger, mercy, tenderness, and compassion. We are all familiar with these terms and can relate to them based on our own experiences, but only to a limited degree. We can only understand these terms to the degree that each of us experiences them at the personal level.
Unless one experiences them on God's level
For instance is there anything you've ever experienced as a believer you would not have otherwise?
Compassion, judgement, wrath, love, etc for an individual you may have otherwise cared less had it not been for God allowing you to feel and be moved by him to show a certain action toward another.

This means that each of us will have developed different levels of understanding about each of these concepts. Regardless of one’s level of understanding of these terms, we can never fully understand them to the degree that they relate to God.
Yes, which is the reason why when one has been revealed privileged information we may collaborate with another to become more as one with the Father.
That's what Jesus wanted, not just him being one with the Father, but all of us.

I am still in agreement with you, even if you may not still be in agreement with me

 

[KSublett]

QUOTE ABOUT REVELATION from above: we seem to be getting things mixed up. but I was attacked here

David and ALL of Israel had been abandoned to worship the starry host (Acts 7) BECAUSE of musical idolatry. The shofar was NOT a musical instruments: the rest are the instruments of the vile women such as those camp followers with whom David danced and went naked.

Psalms 150 1PraiseH1984 ye the LORDH3050. PraiseH1984 GodH410 in his sanctuaryH6944: praiseH1984 him in the firmamentH7549 of his powerH5797.

H1984 hâlal haw-lal' A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify:—(make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

From which we get LUCIFER a well documented figure in Greek and Latin literature. Probably Abaddon or Apollyon who has been unleashed as the LEADER of the MUSES or LOCUSTS to readers of the Classics.

H1966 hêylêl hay-lale' From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star:—lucifer.

lucifer is the FALSE Logos.

H2490 châlal khaw-lal' A primitive root (compare H2470 ); properly to bore, that is, (by implication) to wound, to dissolve; figuratively to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one’s word), to begin (as if by an opening-wedge); denominatively (from H2485 ) to play (the flute):—begin (X men began), defile, X break, defile, X eat (as common things), X first, X gather the grape thereof, X take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.

Tyre, whose king built Solomon a similar temple, was the PERSONIFICATION of Lucifer whom Christ calls the "singing and harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden]

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy TABRETS and of thy PIPES was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. [Bara means Cast Down]
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

 

[Bowman]

But for those having gone through remedial reading 101a He did not say GOD and I are ONE.

Study up before you hurt yourself...


I and the Father are One!Then again the Jews took up stones, that they might stone Him. Jesus answered them, I showed you many good works from My Father. For which work of them do you stone Me? The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone You concerning a good work, but concerning blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself God. (John 10.30 – 33)

 

[oldhermit]

I am still in agreement with you, even if you may not still be in agreement with me

THE INCARNATION OF THE SECOND POSITION
John 1:1-18
​

THE LOGOS OF GOD AS A FUNCTION OF DEITY
​

In John’s prologue, it seems that the Holy Spirit is more interested in dealing with the function of the Second Position than with the question of his identity. This will also be the primary focus of this lesson. Although his identity is well established in the first two verses, it does not seem to be the primary focus. In order for us to maintain the integrity of the text, we must understand that the Bible should not be read as an historical document but as a representational document. This is important to remember if we are to uphold the integrity of the language in this or any other text.

The Bible is not written as merely a catalog of historical events. I certainly do not mean to infer by this that I do not hold the things recorded in it to be historically accurate. I certainly believe them to be. However, the Bible is more than just a catalog of historical events. The Bible is a representational document that reveals the mind of God. The Bible was not written to give us an accurate account of human history. It was written to show us how God has operated in human history. This being the case, it is imperative that we do not allow history to define terms for us. It is not important that we understand how Plato, Philo or any other historian or philosopher of antiquity used the word όLogosor should we concern ourselves with how this word was used in the culture of the time in which John penned this gospel. It is very important however, that we allow the Holy Spirit to elevate the language so that he can explain to us a concept beyond what the words alone can express. This is the nature of all revelation. Remember, the Holy Spirit is the author, not John.

The Logos of John’s prologue is not just some benign abstract of ideas or reason but is the personification of an eternal function of deity. The Logos functions as part of a linguistic triad who links the will of God to the mind of man. Man does not have the capacity to reach beyond the boundaries of the natural world and look into the unseen dimension of God. He must rely upon God to supply him with information. The Logos connects man to an unseen world that transcends the scope of human observation by functioning as the conduit for divine communication. What man will learn about God will come only through the function of the Logos. This is true not just in the incarnation of the Word. It is true in every instance in scripture where God communicates directly with man. All of the Old Testament examples where ‘The Angle of Jehovah’ is in direct contact with man is always Second Position function. Even that which man learns of God from creation is the result of this second position function, which initially brought all mater into existence and placed within it the evidences of God, Psalms 19:1-4 and 97:6. The Logos is the avenue of communication between two parties in two dimensions. That which will be communicated is of course the will of God. The incarnation collapses the distance between the two worlds and brings man into direct contact with God in a very personal way. Man is now confronted face-to-face and in the flesh with this LogosThis is truly a remarkable thing.

The Logos is the source of enlightenment - something is lacking on the part of man; something is not understood. In order for man to expand his understanding of God, he must first be given access to the mind of God. The function of the Logosis to link the mind of man to the mind of God so that man might be able to think the way God thinks: to reason the way God reasons. (Bearing in mind of course, this is only after a limited fashion. After all, man is still a finite creature). What will be needed on the part of man is the realization that his thinking and reasoning processes are veiled in the darkness of intellectual blindness; not just about God, but about his own place within the eternal continuum, and even his relationship to the natural world of which he is a part. In verse 18, John says, “no man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.” The word ἑώthat is translated here as ‘seen’ in most of the English translations is third person singular of ὁά which, according to Thayer, has three basic definitions. First, it means to see with the eyes. Secondly, it means to see with the mind, to know, to perceive. Thirdly, it means to become acquainted with throughpragmaticexperience (The 1981 New Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon, p 451).

If John is arguing from the first definition, this needs to be understood in the light of pragmatic Old Testament examples. We know from the many examples of theophonic manifestations in the Old Testament that God has repeatedly presented himself to man in a number of ways. At times, God availed himself only to man’s auditory senses. He spoke to Adam, to Cain, to Noah, to the Hebrew patriarchs, to Moses, to the prophets, and to others. Sometimes he visited himself upon man in the form of dreams or visions as to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah chapter six. Other times, he appears as objects such as the cloud or the pillar of fire that went before Israel in the wilderness. Still, there are other times when he visited man in human form. There are some eight accounts of this type of theophany found in the Old Testament.

The word ‘theophany’ is derived from two Greek words, ὸmeaning God and ήmeaning sound or voice. A theophany then is a hearing of the voice of God. Theophonic experiences in scripture assume many forms, yet all seem to have a singular function. They communicate the will of God to man. They provide man with a point of reference that man can comprehend. In so doing, God is demonstrating compassion for the limitations of the human mind to understand things that are beyond his ability to comprehend. In some theophonic experiences, God will accommodate only man’s sense of hearing. One only heard the voice of God. God speaking to Noah in Genesis 6 is just such an example. Another is Genesis 12 where God spoke to Abraham. Sometimes, these theophanies would be accompanied by some type of material phenomenon such as fire, wind, or earthquake as in the cases of Moses in Exodus 3, the nation of Israel in Exodus 13 and Elijah in 1Kings 19. Each of these accompanying natural phenomena would appeal to a broader range of physical senses as God sometimes chose to speak in these things. Still, at other times, God chose to assume an anthropomorphic form as in Genesis 18 when he appeared to Abraham in the company of two angels, all in human form. For further reference, one might examine these examples of anthropomorphic theophanies. What appears in each of these is the repeated phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” 22:15-18; 31:11-13; 48:15-16, Joshua 5:13-15, Judges 6:11-24, and Judges 13:15-23.

In each example where the phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” is used, God is represented as the messenger of Jehovah. The phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” is only used to describe the spokesman of deity. This term is never applied to anyone else in scripture. He is always functioning as the spokesman of the divine triad. In each case, this is deity appearing in human form. In every example, those to whom The Angel of Jehovah appeared always understood, at some point, that he was God and they honored him as such. The Angel of Jehovah will always assume divine authority in each of these Old Testament exemplars. He will always be seen serving as the agent of communication, hence the term “The Angel of Jehovah.” He is angelic not in nature but in function. In nature, he is God. In function, he is the messenger in the triadic unity.

The apostle Paul points out in 1Corinthians 10:1-4 that Jesus was the Rock who followed Israel through the desert. Therefore, scripture shows us that man has after a limited fashion, experienced God in varying degrees at the sensory level. He has seen and heard God. However, if what John is talking about in verse eighteen is experiencing the essence of God, it is certainly true that man has never looked upon the unshielded essence of the Almighty. Of all men, Moses seems to have been granted the most intimate privilege of experiencing the presence of God in his essence. In Exodus chapters 33 and 34, God allows all of his goodness to pass before Moses while shielding him in a rock and covering him with his hand. After God had passed by and declared the name of Jehovah, he then removed his hand and the text says that Moses was allowed to see his back or hind parts. Perhaps more properly, he saw what was behind him. The LXX translation of this text reads καὶότεὄψειὰὀπίσωμου – “and then you see the back, behind, or after me.” The ὀπίσωdoes not refer to anything anthropomorphic but suggests the element of time. Moses would see only where God had been after he had passed by.

If ἑώis understood as an intellectual limitation, this would seem to fit better with the closing statement of this prologue. “He has explained him.” The Greek word ἐή is third person singular aorist first indicative active of ἐέ meaning to detail, to set forth in language, to make known or to reveal (George V. Wagram’s Analytical Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, 1983). This is the etymology of our word to ‘exegete’. In other words, “No man has understood or comprehended God at any time. The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he has EXPLAINED him.” The Logos presents God to the mind of man through the medium of human language in such a way that man is now able to understand something of the nature and character of God that he could never know from his observation of the natural world. Only the one who came out of the very presence of God could have done this.

In the 1980 printing of The Expositors Greek Testament on the gospel of John p 692, the expositor makes an interesting observation in contrast to Meyer. He says that ἐήrefers to the “work” which Christ accomplished while he was on earth. This emphasizes a particular function of the Second Position. Having come from this eternal intimate relationship with the Father, he is thus “equipped” to translate the mind of God to the mind of man. The linking of these two minds is intended to create an isomorphic state of thinking. As we see in verses 10-12, this response on the part of man would be both positive and negative. As man begins the process of learning to think and reason as God, he will learn to re-symbolize his relationship both to God and to the natural world. He will have to learn to think differently, to speak differently, and to behave differently. Reality will take on a new definition. This would not be met favorably among the majority of humanity, not in that generation nor in this one.

Overview of Credentials

The Holy Spirit gives us a catalog of five distinct divine attributes that serve as credentials of the Logos as the absolute spokesman of deity and legitimize his message. 1) The Logos himself is God - ὸἧ ὁ ό 2) He is eternal. 3) He is the Creator (Estranged Creator, verse 10). 4) He is the giver and the sustainer of life. 5) He is the source of grace and truth. Truth represents the mind of God as the ultimate reality. Grace is the channel for divine acceptance. As the revealer of God, he explained God to us. These credentials stand in contrast to all others who through history have spoken of behalf of God. While they were only men, this spokesman is God. With such a resume as this, it would behoove us to do as the Hebrew writer commands and “give the more earnest heed…to the things we have heard” Hebrews 2:1, NKJV.

 

[posthuman]

Deuteronomy 29:29 and 1Corintheans 2:9-10. What he has revealed linguistically is found only within the Bible. Revelation is limited because of the limited capacity of the human mind to comprehend things it cannot envision and because of the inability of human language to explain things of the non-natural world. Revelation about God is very often anthropomorphic.This is because man can only understand that with which he has an experiential frame of reference. In order for God to reveal himself in scripture, he uses human language to present himself to us in terms with which we are all familiar and to which each of us can relate based on our own individual experiences. For example, in his relationship to man God speaks of himself as father, friend, shepherd, master, judge, king, and husband.He speaks of such physical traits as hair, wings, thigh, hand, arm, heart, and bosom. He speaks of character traits such as love, knowledge, wisdom, hate, will, anger, mercy, tenderness, and compassion. We are all familiar with these terms and can relate to them based on our own experiences, but only to a limited degree. We can only understand these terms to the degree that each of us experiences them at the personal level.
Unless one experiences them on God's level
For instance is there anything you've ever experienced as a believer you would not have otherwise?
Compassion, judgement, wrath, love, etc for an individual you may have otherwise cared less had it not been for God allowing you to feel and be moved by him to show a certain action toward another.

i do - and trust other believers likewise do - become moved by passions that aren't in keeping with my own nature but reflect what i understand to be the nature of God, and this has increased in my life in direct proportion to the degree to which i search for Him in scripture and prayer, and also with maturity - though that may be explained by a proportionate maturity of understanding and sensitivity. it is in my heart though that we have yet infinitely farther to be perfected before we can speak of experiencing things "on God's level." that is the blessed hope i have in Christ, that 'the work he has begun in me, He will not fail to complete' - for this is also the character of God, whose 'word does not go out from Him and return void' (Isaiah 55:11).

this is the 'incommensurablity' - or at least (i hope) humility in my thinking. as a mathematician, i would say that man's measure is finite, but God is immeasurable (because no σ-finite, bounded function can cover Him), so to understand Him in our present state, only having a foretaste of Him, is like drawing a 3, 4 or 11 dimensional picture of an infinite dimensional object. we see a projection, in however many dimensions He has given us to know - for now - just like looking 'through a glass, darkly' we see a 3-d world on a 2-d plane, and that, indistinctly & within a frame. that doesn't mean what we see doesn't carry information about Him, but it does imply that our understanding of Him in our present life is 'bounded from above.'

This means that each of us will have developed different levels of understanding about each of these concepts. Regardless of one’s level of understanding of these terms, we can never fully understand them to the degree that they relate to God.
Yes, which is the reason why when one has been revealed privileged information we may collaborate with another to become more as one with the Father.
That's what Jesus wanted, not just him being one with the Father, but all of us.

amen! isn't God good to us!

 

[Richie_2uk]

But for those having gone through remedial reading 101a He did not say GOD and I are ONE.

Father, spirit (mother) and seeded son identifies the ALWAYS family of gods. God gave Jesus all of the AUTHORITY of these fathers, mothers (spirits) and son. God did not IMAGE forth three people as Philip clearly wanted to see when he asked "show us the father." Jesus was MADE BY GOD to be both Lord and Christ as the ANTITHESIS of the universal triads beginning in Babylonia.

Only after he was baptized did the visual aid of a DOVE pronounce Jesus as the Son of a Father and not the daughter of the Babylonian Mother.

In Ezekiel 8 the women worshipped Tammuz as their Messiah. This is why Christ in the prophets marks the Jews with a Covenant with Death and Hell. Inanna/Ishtar/Easter had to go into "hell" to bring Tammuz (saviour) back to life.

Click for the Women worshipping Tammuz while the men held their first sun-rise service worshiping Ishtar or EASTER.

MuTammuz

God called the worship of this trinity an ABOMINATION in the holy places

1Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God [Theos], the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord [Kurios] Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God [Theos] hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
both Lord [Kurios] and Christ.

Because the Kingdom does not come with observation meaning RELIGIOUS SERVICES, if you are trapped in an institution with a King set over you and a host of STAFF you have progressed BACK TO BABYLON which is defined for you in Revelatio 17-18.

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed,
do all in the name of the Lord Jesus,
giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other:
for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
whereby we must be saved.

Sorry but when you think that father, son and spirit are NAMES it is too late.

Well I go by what the bible say, not what man assumes and thinks. Its says clearly that Jesus is the son, and are one in the father. What you wrote, is a denial and sorry to say put doubt into the world. And I'm sorry to say, doubts, denials, and lies, come from the enemy.

You will find in all bibles quote the same verse in John 10: 30. Says I, and the father are one. We don't believe accodings to, or what other denying religions or thoerists believe. We believe what it says, and states clearly in the bible. That Jesus, Meaning I, and the Father God are one.

The enemy knows the truth, but he twists them for his own gain, and I'm sorry to say. If you are going to believe in what people say according to them? then you are falling for the enemies Denial of the truth. God bless. Believe in truth, not twisted accordings.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

But for those having gone through remedial reading 101a He did not say GOD and I are ONE.

He certainly did say that. You can read it remedially all day long and it will still say the same thing. You could argue semantics if you wanted and say it says "The Father", but "The Father" obviously is God.

 

[Deadtosin]

morning star:—lucifer[/B].

every time I see that my stomach turns... Jesus is the morning star and I don't care what any "expert" tells me, Jesus doesn't make mistakes and He clearly claims to be the morning star. Lucifer - bearer of light. Jesus- Bright morning star. There is no switching it around. Lucifer will NEVER be the morning star- no matter how badly he wants to be.

 

[Deadtosin]

Ksublett, whats your take on this?

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The same was in the beginning with God.
[SUP]3[/SUP]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[KSublett]

That's true: God, His breath (spirit) and Word are ALL God. However, the text says that the LOGOS or that SPEAKING VOICE was made flesh. No man has seen GOD, The Son has DECLARED or Spoken God's Word. God has no flesh and bones and therefore as SPIRIT He did not become flesh. In historic trinity.

Father conceives or thinks
Father breaths (spirit)
Father articulates the WORD.

It was God's WORD and in W.O.R.D.S that became flesh when Jesus of Nazareth was breathed (without meter) or INSPIRED the man, Jesus of Nazareth.

Christ is the promised Messiah: If you say that Messiah was not in the FLESH then John says that you are an antichrist. If you say that God is flesh then you contradict Scripture and recorded history. Only in my lifetime did The-O-lites decide that God was THREE PEOPLE about theri size and just a bit smarter. A bit smarter knows that it was God WORDS which Jesus DECLARED which became Flesh. When Jesus said that the father and I are ONE, he was speaking a PARABLE which He said that had been God's method of HIDING from the wise or sophists from the foundation of the world. Hiding in plain sight because Paul said that until you are converted or baptized to receive A holy spirit or A good conscience you would not be able to READ the Word nor could you HEAR the word when the command is obeyed to PREACH the Word by READING the Word for comfort and doctrine; teaching is what one does when they assemble and the ONLY worhsi concept.

John 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the DOOR of the sheep.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:9 I am the DOOR: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
John 10:15 As the Father KNOWETH me,
even so KNOW I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 10:17 Therefore doth my FATHER love ME, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not:
......the works that I do in my Father’s NAME, [Yehwah]......they bear witness of me.
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Neither Jesus nor His Disciples are OF the World: the Kosmos is under the rule of the Kosmokrator. However, Jesus was sent to seek and save Lost Spirits who are NOT of the KOSMOS (The Judas bag for the mouthpieces of wind instruments: the little block attached to the flute case of the Judas-Sicarri often "drunk on wine."

glōssokomon glōssa III, komeō a case for the mouthpiece of a pipe: generally, a case, casket,

This fulfills the prophecy in Psalm 41 that Judas would try to alarm or triumph over Jesus: that is the vocal or instrumental rejoicing forbidden for the Church of Christ (the Rock) in the wilderness so they could hear the Word PREACHED by being READ each REST day.

Those NOT of the World but who are OF TRUTH will hear the gospel call of invitation and instantly recognize their rescuer FROM the world and religious oppression and warfare.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
......neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which GAVE THEM TO ME, is GREATER than ALL;
and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

All the members of the Body of Christ are ONE but not the same: Jesus said that the FATHER was greater than all but HE gave Jesus the role of seeking and saving those ready to lift off when they hear the TRUMPET QUARTETS.

 

[oldhermit]

i do - and trust other believers likewise do - become moved by passions that aren't in keeping with my own nature but reflect what i understand to be the nature of God, and this has increased in my life in direct proportion to the degree to which i search for Him in scripture and prayer, and also with maturity - though that may be explained by a proportionate maturity of understanding and sensitivity. it is in my heart though that we have yet infinitely farther to be perfected before we can speak of experiencing things "on God's level." that is the blessed hope i have in Christ, that 'the work he has begun in me, He will not fail to complete' - for this is also the character of God, whose 'word does not go out from Him and return void' (Isaiah 55:11).

this is the 'incommensurablity' - or at least (i hope) humility in my thinking. as a mathematician, i would say that man's measure is finite, but God is immeasurable (because no σ-finite, bounded function can cover Him), so to understand Him in our present state, only having a foretaste of Him, is like drawing a 3, 4 or 11 dimensional picture of an infinite dimensional object. we see a projection, in however many dimensions He has given us to know - for now - just like looking 'through a glass, darkly' we see a 3-d world on a 2-d plane, and that, indistinctly & within a frame. that doesn't mean what we see doesn't carry information about Him, but it does imply that our understanding of Him in our present life is 'bounded from above.'

amen! isn't God good to us!

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN GOD BRINGS THESE TWO WORLDS INTO A STATE OF COINCIDENCE?


There is an immediate discontinuity between the Word and the human mind. Man did not know him because knowledge of the eternal is veiled. This veil exists because human perception is based on experiential knowledge rather than on revelation. This separation is without excuse because revelation had already been given that was adequate to recognize the Word for who he was. Indeed, some made the connection between Jesus and what the Old Testament had to say regarding the One who was to come. For the majority of humanity, sensory examination of the natural world had become their epistemological metric. In other words, man bases his knowledge on what he learns from his observation of statistical regularities operating within the natural world. They did not know him for who he was because his identity was not revealed by the natural world or by natural processes. Recognition is based on familiarity. To the eyes of those around him, they recognized only those things that were familiar to their experiences. They did not receive him as the Word of God because they received him as one of their own. All they could see was the man and experience told them that men do not legitimately claim divine status.

What exactly did they know about him that they could connect to their understanding of reality? They knew that he was born of a woman, they supposed, just like everyone else in the human collective, Matthew 13:55-56. They watched him as he grow just like his brothers and sisters and every other child in their community. On the surface, they saw nothing about him that was any different from any one of them. They saw that, as a man, he possessed all of the same physical characteristics as all other men of the Jewish family. He looked and dressed like them. He ate what they ate. He lived as they lived. He was subject to all of the same sets of determined relations that are common to all members of the human race. When he got hungry, he ate. When he got tired, he rested. In times of rejoicing, he rejoiced with them. In times of sorrow, he wept with them. As the years passed, he aged physically, mentally, emotionally, and psychologically. When he was hurt, he suffered. When they nailed him to a cross, he died. All of these things agreed with their understanding of how natural processes work; consequently, “they received Him not” for who he was but for who they thought him to be. However, the miracles he did, the claims he made, and the things he taught were all far removed from anything in their experiences. This created an immediate discontinuity. This was all contrary to everything they knew. When the Word of God is brought to bear upon the mind, socially accepted knowledge will always be confronted. When human intelligence is thrown into a state of conflict with the superior intelligence of God, ideas will inevitably be challenged. The Word of God challenges human wisdom and forces man to reassess what he regards as knowledge. Man must now choose to bow to revelation or rebel against it. This results in a conflict of ideologies and a battle of wills ensues. There will be no compromise on the part of God. This creates a disruption of the human status quo because man is confronted with the need to change the way he thinks about what is true. This was the purpose of the miracles. The miracles not only served as divine credentials, they also challenged man’s perception of reality. This met with bitter opposition from every corner of society. Since they refused to acknowledge him as the Word of God, they could not acknowledge his teaching as being from God. They were reluctant to surrender long held and cherished ideas, beliefs, practices and established ways of life. Jesus often challenged the way in which they read scripture. Many times, we find Jesus correcting their interpretation of God’s Law. Human rationalization of scripture had marginalized the truth and rendered it void through their traditions, Mark 7:1-13. The function of scripture had been lost to them. Man is now given the opportunity to see reality in quite a different way. He is being called upon to change the way in which he reads scripture and to re-discover a long abandoned epistemology. Man is shown that he can no longer rely upon his observation of natural processes to influence how he regards revelation or defines truth. Most of Jesus’ hearers refused to accept this. This is why the miracles and especially the resurrection of Jesus were such a “stumbling block and a rock of offense,” Isaiah 8:14, Romans 9:33 and 1Peter 2:8. These things could not be explained away by natural process nor could they simply be ignored. The miracles overturned everything their experiences told them about how things worked in their world. These things were contrary to all reason and “common sense” (Does this sound familiar?). After all, everyone knows that virgins do not give birth to children. Now, these may have been ignorant, unsophisticated, and uneducated people but they knew where babies came from. Of course, everyone knows that blind men cannot suddenly be made to see and that men do not walk on water. A determined relationship exists between the elements of the water, gravitational forces and the mass of the human body that make this impossible. Everything we know about the natural processes of this world tells us that once a person is dead they stay dead! There is no way to overturn the finality of this experience. With these displays of miracles, Jesus challenged every ideological reality that they had embraced based on human lived experiences. In spite of all of the evidence of the miracles, many simply could not accept him in terms of his claims. It was quite a revolutionary idea to realize that not even death is determinate. With this, came the realization that man is not in control of his world. Man would not accept that he himself is non-determinate. In retaliation, man attempts to overcome the light in the perceived interest of self-preservation. By killing him, they will attempt to prove that they are ultimately in control of their world, only to discover that the Logos is determinate, not death, and certainly not the men who put him on the cross for HE WILL NOT STAY DEAD.

For others however, this revelation produced its desired effect for some received him. This represents a changing belief structure. Some embraced the light. They recognized the reality of their own intellectual darkness. To these he gave eternal life. One lesson we learn from those who opposed the Light is that false teachers fear the truth because truth always exposes. Man must be exposed to the genuine article before he can recognize a fraud. This is precisely what the Light accomplished for those who would receive him as the Word of God.

 

[JaumeJ]

When Jesus, Yeshua, walked the earth, His earth, He was not God. Were He God at the time and not flesh, He could not have died and been reserrected for us.

He is the first Born of the resurrection, and He counted it nothing to be in the flesh for the sake of all souls whom He loves. He became fesh for all of us, and He perforemed the most wonderful act ever in suffering and dying on the cross so we would all realize, He, God, Yahweh, loves us.

The prophet did foretell us the Child would be called, among other names, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, God Almighty, Wonderful, and Counselor.

Anything more necessary to understand this simple truth would call for a ton of bricks to fall on the head.

Jesus Christ was not God, but He IS God.

 

[Deadtosin]

Jesus Christ always was. "before Abraham was I AM" He is the Creator of everything. He lived His life as an ensample. Of course He had to do it from the perspective of man and flesh. How could we learn otherwise? Can we raise up to God's level? never, He therefore humbled Himself to our level. Just as Jesus washed His disciples feet. Teaching us how to serve.

 

[KSublett]

The prophet did foretell us the Child would be called, among other names, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, God Almighty, Wonderful, and Counselor..

Lots of people would quibble about that prophecy. He was not called Yehwah but elohim. from the word:

H352 ah'-yil From the same as H193 ; properly strength; hence anything strong; specifically a chief (politically); also a ram (from his strength); a pilaster (as a strong support); an oak or other strong tree:—mighty (man), lintel, oak, post, ram, tree.

Someone must have received the wrong message: they called His NAME Jesus. In Zechariah the BRANCH and God's ARM is Jesus or Joshua which is Yahweh's Saviour.

God MADE JESUS TO BE both Lord and Christ. Jesus was NOT even LORD (kurios) much less THE ONE GOD [Theos] THE FATHER until He was DECLARED to be the SON of God only after His baptism.

The MAN Jesus returned to the Father to be the MEDIATOR between man and God. After His glorification Jesus received the PROMISE of the Holy Spirit which means that God gave Him the evangelistic SPIRITUAL Role: It was Jesus of Nazareth who APPEARED and SPOKE to Paul to qualify him to be "guided into all truth like the other apostles."

The "another" Comforter [paraklete] in John 14 is in 1 John 2 called Jesus Christ the Righteous as THE promised paraklete.

So, Scripture says that he is still the MAN as Mediator-Intercessor. You say that Jesus is GOD and not the MEDIATOR between man and God.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the MAN Christ Jesus;

Maybe we don't know what the meaning of MAN is.

 

[KSublett]

Jesus Christ always was. "before Abraham was I AM" He is the Creator of everything. He lived His life as an ensample. Of course He had to do it from the perspective of man and flesh. How could we learn otherwise? Can we raise up to God's level? never, He therefore humbled Himself to our level. Just as Jesus washed His disciples feet. Teaching us how to serve.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Jesus was IN THE MIND OF GOD and prophesied in Genesis where the SEED (sperm) of the Serpent would attack the seed of a woman.

The WORD of God existed from all eternity before there were any spirit beings created by God. The WORD is God's Regulative Principle: He rules by SPEAKING laws. The governing principle became flesh when the Father breathed (spirit) and Jesus Spoke.

The covenant with Abraham as the only spiritual covenant was made by God IN Christ or His instrumental means. The ROCK in the wilderness was the CHRIST of God.

John was not in the prophetic message until Malachi. We are all lost spirits and only Jesus can show us the "tiny gate" hidden by the milling masses (beasts) of religionists.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God [Theos] hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord [Kurios] and Christ.

Jesus was not God or Yahweh the ONE GOD THE FATHER but He was MADE to be LORD or Governer speaking the Logos or regulating principle by speaking ONLY what HE heard from God the Father.

 

[dcontroversal]

Study up before you hurt yourself...


I and the Father are One!Then again the Jews took up stones, that they might stone Him. Jesus answered them, I showed you many good works from My Father. For which work of them do you stone Me? The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone You concerning a good work, but concerning blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself God. (John 10.30 – 33)

Exactly as they understood completely what he was stating as it was obvious...

 

[Deadtosin]

Lots of people would quibble about that prophecy. He was not called Yehwah but elohim. from the word:

Thy throne, O God, is for ever - כסאך אלהים עולם ועד kisacha Elohim olam vaed. "O God, thy throne is for ever, and eternal!" The word Elohim here is the very first term or name by which the Supreme God has made himself known to the children of men. See Genesis 1:1; and this very verse the apostle, Hebrews 1:8, has applied to Jesus Christ. If the apostle did not believe Jesus Christ to be the true and eternal God, he has utterly misapplied this Scripture.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, Yes and yes..........and again I must say YES

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Exactly as they understood completely what he was stating as it was obvious...

Or they were accusing him of something he didn't say. All you have to do is look at the context, what does he say immediately after this?

"[SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? [SUP]35 [/SUP]If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), [SUP]36 [/SUP]do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? [SUP]37 [/SUP]If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; [SUP]38 [/SUP]but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” [SUP]39 [/SUP]Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp."


Edit: It's also helpful to have an idea of what it meant to be someone's son in Jewish thought, and the things it implied regarding inheritance, etc....but that's a completely different topic.