Is Jesus of Nazareth the prophesied Messiah from the O.T.?

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#41
So, you're saying that Christ didn't come to deliver Israel since it is still in "gentile hands". Therefore, you don't believe that Jesus of Nazareth os the Messiah. Or?
What did the Messiah do for Israel?
Look at the prophesies.

You refuse to answer them, but the prophesies answer your question (just not the way you want)

and also read lev 26.


40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,

41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;

if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—

42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#42
The disciples of Jesus of Nazareth believed that He was the Messiah. Otherwise, they wouldn't have left their work and family to follow Him. But I'm glad you understood that the cross was a stumbling block for a lot of them because they didn't expect their Messiah to die. However, Christ resurrected and ever since the apostles spread the good news and no longer feared death.

They confessed Christ to be the King of Kings in a world where Ceasar was perceived as king. Christ is king, not Ceasar!
He was messiah.

that is not the question

Before jesus died, Peter proved he still did not see Jesus as suffering servant who would die fot the sins of his people. He did not understand that until AFTER Christ arose. When it was opened to him.

He STILL thought jesus came to rule. that is why they asked who would serve on his right and his left. who would be greatest (have the most power) they still did not get it. Because they were looking at the messianic prophesies, NOT the servant of the lord prophesies.

The question is did he fulfill all that was said of him.. ALL. not just part.
 

GuessWho

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
1,227
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48
#43
He was messiah.

that is not the question


Actually, that is the question. If Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah and if the Jews expected to be delivered from the enemy power (the traditional Babylon had been replaced by the Romans) it means, according to you, that Jesus of Nazareth isn't actually the Messiah since the Jews are still in "gentile hands".

So, if Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, what did he do for the Jews (and for all of us, in fact)?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#44
No. this was said of the servant of God. not the messiah. The servant of God was given no name, that is why the disciples could not correlate him as messiah and going through these things, not once was it told that the messiah would suffer these things.

Nothing in here shows he will be a servant, they all state he will be served, and worshiped. He will be ruler of=ver his people. And peace of his people will be everlasting. There has not been peace for Isreal or christians on the earth since he left. Quite the opposite.\


and these are but a few of the messianic prophesies, there are many more which say the same thing

But nice try.
He was messiah.

that is not the question

Before jesus died, Peter proved he still did not see Jesus as suffering servant who would die fot the sins of his people. He did not understand that until AFTER Christ arose. When it was opened to him.

He STILL thought jesus came to rule. that is why they asked who would serve on his right and his left. who would be greatest (have the most power) they still did not get it. Because they were looking at the messianic prophesies, NOT the servant of the lord prophesies.

The question is did he fulfill all that was said of him.. ALL. not just part.
You are trying to sow seeds of discord.

What is this Messiah vs "servant of the Lord" false argument?

and why downplay Messianic prophecies? They are the most amazing and most important prophecies in all of Scripture.



The Messiah is the prophet spoken of by Mosheh that we must hear and obey.

The Messiah is the Lamb of Yahweh.

The Messiah is the ruling king that will take full rule when He returns as a Lion.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#45
GuessWho do you believe that all 7 Feast days of Yahweh have already been fulfilled?
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#46
No. this was said of the servant of God. not the messiah. The servant of God was given no name, that is why the disciples could not correlate him as messiah and going through these things, not once was it told that the messiah would suffer these things.

Quite the opposite.


Zechariah 14:9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
Zechariah 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty

Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
5:4 He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.

Nothing in here shows he will be a servant, they all state he will be served, and worshiped. He will be ruler of=ver his people. And peace of his people will be everlasting. There has not been peace for Isreal or christians on the earth since he left. Quite the opposite.\


and these are but a few of the messianic prophesies, there are many more which say the same thing

But nice try.
Does a King serve his Kingdom? Does God serve his Church? Does a man serve his woman?

Ask yourself those three questions.


I will expand a little bit on Matthew here on the topic of servanthood.

Matthew 20:25-28
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


Also consider when Jesus washes his disciples' feet too (John 13)! This is an oft overlooked little episode, but is very significant.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#47
You are trying to sow seeds of discord.

What is this Messiah vs "servant of the Lord" false argument?

and why downplay Messianic prophecies? They are the most amazing and most important prophecies in all of Scripture.



The Messiah is the prophet spoken of by Mosheh that we must hear and obey.

The Messiah is the Lamb of Yahweh.

The Messiah is the ruling king that will take full rule when He returns as a Lion.
The people sowing seeds of discord are those saying jesus fulfilled ALL messianic prophesies.

Part of the hidden mystery is that it was well believed that the messiah would come rule. while this suffering servant would come to die.

It was not until after his ressurection, that the mystery was revealed that these two people were one in the same
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#48
Does a King serve his Kingdom? Does God serve his Church? Does a man serve his woman?

Ask yourself those three questions.


I will expand a little bit on Matthew here on the topic of servanthood.

Matthew 20:25-28
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


Also consider when Jesus washes his disciples' feet too (John 13)! This is an oft overlooked little episode, but is very significant.
You did not answer any of the questions I asked.

those verses do not show how Jesus fulfilled the prophesies spoken concerning him that I have highlighted.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#49
You did not answer any of the questions I asked.

those verses do not show how Jesus fulfilled the prophesies spoken concerning him that I have highlighted.
Your questions are answered. Does a sheperd serve his flock?

Looking at your response to Hizikiyah; indeed the suffering servant is the Messiah one in the same. Perhaps indeed some of the disciples even did not initially realize this to its fullest extent before the crucifixion and resurrection, but all this is indeed written. Jesus speaks of this throughout the Gospel and shows it even in washing of disciples feet in John 13. So there is no argument then that the servant of God is the Messiah whom is Jesus. It's just yet another proof for Jesus claim to Messiah.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
370
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#50
You did not answer any of the questions I asked.

those verses do not show how Jesus fulfilled the prophesies spoken concerning him that I have highlighted.
Your questions are answered. Does a sheperd serve his flock?

Looking at your response to Hizikiyah; indeed the suffering servant is the Messiah one in the same. Perhaps indeed some of the disciples even did not initially realize this to its fullest extent before the crucifixion and resurrection, but all this is indeed written. Jesus speaks of this throughout the Gospel and shows it even in washing of disciples feet in John 13. So there is no argument then that the servant of God is the Messiah whom is Jesus. It's just yet another proof for Jesus claim to Messiah.
Virtually none of my questions were answered...
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#51
Your questions are answered. Does a sheperd serve his flock?

Looking at your response to Hizikiyah; indeed the suffering servant is the Messiah one in the same. Perhaps indeed some ofthe disciples even did not initially realize this to its fullest extent before the crucifixion and resurrection, but all this is indeed written. Jesus speaks of this throughout the Gospel and shows it even in washing of disciples feet in John 13. So there is no argument then that the servant of God is the Messiah whom is Jesus. It's just yet another proof for Jesus claim to Messiah.
your just like your brothers.

You can not answer questions, so you give one liners and think you have, when you have not.

Before Christ death, No one on earth thought the suffering servant and messiah were one and the same, that is why NO ONE thought jesus would die, even argued with him when he said he was going to die, Peter even on Jesus last night had to be restrained because he still did not get it.

So it is not anything new. And it proves that the two, on the surface, were two different people, because they were said to do things which were the complete opposite of what the other would do.

Of course I have asked you to show where the messiah did those things said he would do. And you can;t answer. So I can not help you if you will not help yourself.

Everyone sees you not answering, your not hurting me if you do not answer. I could care less. I know the answer. it is others who see you refusing to answer that you should be worried about. because many of these people you are trying to convince you are right. And you will not do it the way your doing it.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
370
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#53
Before Christ death, No one on earth thought the suffering servant and messiah were one and the same, that is why NO ONE thought jesus would die, even argued with him when he said he was going to die, Peter even on Jesus last night had to be restrained because he still did not get it.

So it is not anything new. And it proves that the two, on the surface, were two different people, because they were said to do things which were the complete opposite of what the other would do
Before Christ death, No one on earth thought the suffering servant and messiah were one and the same... And it proves that the two, on the surface, were two different people...
No, Your logic is very broken.

Public perception does not equal truth.

Just because most that had read the Scriptures did not fully understand the chain of events does not make their misunderstanding fact.

Fact is Messiah came as a Lamb and returns as a Lion.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#54
No, Your logic is very broken.

Public perception does not equal truth.

Just because most that had read the Scriptures did not fully understand the chain of events does not make their misunderstanding fact.

Fact is Messiah came as a Lamb and returns as a Lion.
lol. Ok. My perception is broken.. lets see.

There is still no peace on earth

Israel is still scattered

Evil is still rampant.

He sent his disciples out, not to judge, but to save

He sent his disciples out to act like he was when he was on earth, not to act like the religious rulers of the world.

Yep. He sure is like a lion.







 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#55
Taken from part of my study on the hidden mystery of God,

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.

Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
5:4 He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth.

Zechariah 14:9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
Zechariah 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty

From these three passages we learn these things about who this messiah would be and what he would do.

1. He will be human, born as a child
2. He will be a ruler (government will be on his shoulders)
3. He will be God himself (He will be called mighty God)
4. His kingdom will be eternal, it will never end.
5. He will NEVER DIE
6. He will come from Judah, and rule isreal, and his kingdom will be worldwide in scope. and his kingdom will come from the strength of God himself. it can not be defeated.
7. Those who rebelled againsed him, and survived the final battle will come and worship him. No one will look down on him, but look up to him. and serve him and him only.
8. He will be served, not be a servant.
9. We are given his name: Messiah, or as we know it Christ.

Even if we look at it from todays perspective, The only thing that resembles what we know Christ did was be born as a child. All other things spoken of him do not resemble Christ, or his earthly ministry he fullfilled over 2000 years ago.

Scripture also tells of another. One it calles the servant of the Lord. Many theologions call him Gods "suffering" servant.

Isaiah 53:2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. 3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face, He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living, For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied;By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

What do we see about this person?

1. He will be human.
2. He will have no kingdom, no one will look up to him, they will look down on him.
3. He is not said to be God (although he is not said not to be God)
4. He takes our punsihment for our sin.
5. He dies a horrible death
6. He will rise from the dead
7. His death will justify many.
8. He is given no name. so we do not know who he will be.

If we look at and compair the two, we see two completely different people. with no possibility of even thinking they could even be the same person.

The messiah will come and take over, reign as king, and vanquish his foes.
the servant will come and suffer, pay for sin, and die badly!

How can anyone see these two as the same person? It would be practically impossible. (even though we know today they are one and the same, they could have not known this when Christ walked the earth)


Yep. I have not studied this at all.. And people still can not tell me how these two men could ever be seeing as one and the same. Paul had to spend time in scripture showing people how jesus was this messiah who came and suffered for the sake of the people. and why he did not come as the one who would rule the people after vanquishing his foes.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
370
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#56
In the number of debates we have had, much of what I say and ask is not mentioned but turned into more questions for me. So I was jumping on the bandwagon. Just calling it the way I see it. Example,

you said
Why did messiah die, when the messiah was told would never die?
One Scripture in Daniyl proved this wrong yet you did not let that stop the doctrine that has this as a supporting factor, not even addressing your error.

Daniyl 9:25-26, "Know therefore, and understand that from the going forth ofthe commandment to restore and to rebuild Yerusalem, fto the Messiah the Prince, will be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; the street will be rebuilt again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, without a successor; and the people of the prince that will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end will be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#57
Virtually none of my questions were answered...
Like him your questions are also answered. In your case you answered your own questions within your own post brother and brother eternally-gratefull did not pose any question thus they are all ready answered. I pose my own questions I ask and I suppose answered them myself. If it is not clear, I am of the mind that a sheperd serves his flock by leading it and guarding it, a king serves his Kingdom by ruling it, a man serves his wife by being a husband, and God serves his Church by being the righteous God.

Because all this is displayed in Jesus, he is Messiah.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#58
In the number of debates we have had, much of what I say and ask is not mentioned but turned into more questions for me. So I was jumping on the bandwagon. Just calling it the way I see it. Example,

you said

One Scripture in Daniyl proved this wrong yet you did not let that stop the doctrine that has this as a supporting factor, not even addressing your error.

Daniyl 9:25-26, "Know therefore, and understand that from the going forth ofthe commandment to restore and to rebuild Yerusalem, fto the Messiah the Prince, will be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; the street will be rebuilt again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, without a successor; and the people of the prince that will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end will be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
funny how Peter did not understand that up until the the day Jesus died.

Why is that? why is it the men who followed for three years, and told countless times he would die for the sin of the people. did they not get it?


They did not even see that part. remember, he came to rule. not to save, they did not need saved.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#59
eternally-gratefull did not pose any question thus they are all ready answered..
are you serious?

This thread was started because I asked you in another post the question. When did jesus fulfill the highlighted parts of the point I made.

and you say I did not ask a question?

wow. just wow.