Is justification by faith alone?

[2Thewaters]

Abrahams faith
believed enough to do Gods word


what is the big problem here

if you dont have enough faith to do Gods word then you dont have true faith.

without doing what God said you are dead.

obedience is a key

did you ever lok up obedience?

without obedience to the commandments you cannot be saved

not possible.

the obedience comes THOUGH JESUS POWER IN YOU


"By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:" -Romans 1:5.


"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." -Romans 5:19.


"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" -Romans 6:16.


"For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil." -Romans 16:19.


"But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" -Romans 16:26.


"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." -1 Corinthians 14:34.


"And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him." -2 Corinthians 7:15.


"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;" -2 Corinthians 10:5.


"And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled." -2 Corinthians 10:6.


"Having confidence in thy obedience I wrote unto thee, knowing that thou wilt also do more than I say." -Philemon 1:21.


"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;" -Hebrews 5:8.


"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." -1 Peter 1:2.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

What verse says God does not need physical obedience from man for man to be saved?

Gen 22:10-12 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

In john 3:16 the word believed is used.
It doesn't say believe plus works.
You see GOD does not need to see physical work,He knows the intentions.
With Abraham,GOD saw Abrahams faith and counted it righteous.

If you believe that scripture will not contradict itself then don't you believe that paul and james were inspired by GOD.
remember GOD looks at the heart.
Man looks at the outward appearance.

 

[2Thewaters]

it says belief plus works is faith

 

[2Thewaters]

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

:

when you misunderstand the meanings of the words you have to

1. Change the definition of a word in your mind

or

2. Throw out some of the Bible

I see no one likes JAmes anymore they have decided to stick with INCORRECT word definitions instead

 

[2Thewaters]

to believe something is to DO IT

that is the definition

and the cheap gospel says to believe is NOT TO DO

that is the whole problem
wrong definition of Belief.

 

[2Thewaters]

I agree all you have to do is BELIEVE in Jesus and you will be saved

believe is a big word

Jesus is a big word

Rev 19:13 And Jesus was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.



John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;





1 Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.


how many DOZENS of verses do you want?

if you stick to predetermines arguments you will not find the truth
you have to search the bible

 

[2Thewaters]

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain,


did something

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;


did something





did something

faith is belief enough to do it


you can believe a little and be lost

you have to believe enough to do what you are told

if you do not believe the BIBLE enough to keep sabbath, you will not be with the 144,000 who keep the commandments of God
Jesus said so

 

[seed_time_harvest]

it says belief plus works is faith

The work of GOD which is faith

 

[BradC]

it says belief plus works is faith

John 6:28,29

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

2Thewaters I'm having difficulty trying to post from this phone,so if i don't respond right away its because i wanted to make a good reply and i can't edit my post without messing it all up.
wish i had internet on desktop.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

it says belief plus works is faith

No it says no works = belief only (even the demons BELIEVE yet TREMBLE

I can believe something and have no trust in it at all. If I do not trust it (faith) I will not do what it says.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

:

when you misunderstand the meanings of the words you have to

1. Change the definition of a word in your mind

or

2. Throw out some of the Bible

I see no one likes JAmes anymore they have decided to stick with INCORRECT word definitions instead

No. I love James It states a fact. Easy believism, Dead orthodoxy is a dead faith which will NEVER save anyone. And also helps me to see when I examin my own life how strong my faith has been lately, and if I need to do something to strengthen my faith.

Yet I also believe Paul when he says,

Rom 4: 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

You have to resolve these two passages. If not you have scripture contradicting itself. And it is a useless book.

 

[StoneThrower]

You have to resolve these two passages. If not you have scripture contradicting itself. And it is a useless book.

James was written before Romans so its not a contradiction, I think I have notes on this at home. Paul is just saying that true saving faith causes us to respond.
Works do nothing for gaining salvation but are the evidence of salvation.
But man always wants to be in control and in his pride and assume that there is something special about him. Once the pride and self rightousness are gone than God will save someone as God rejects the proud but gives grace to the humble.
All the false religions of the world say do do do, and there is still no assurance of salvation. Christianity says DONE, it was finished at the cross, the only scrafice that God deems as acceptable.
So you have salvation through the imputed rightousness of Christ (credited to your account)or you dont have salvation at all!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James was written before Romans so its not a contradiction, I think I have notes on this at home. Paul is just saying that true saving faith causes us to respond.
Works do nothing for gaining salvation but are the evidence of salvation.
But man always wants to be in control and in his pride and assume that there is something special about him. Once the pride and self rightousness are gone than God will save someone as God rejects the proud but gives grace to the humble.
All the false religions of the world say do do do, and there is still no assurance of salvation. Christianity says DONE, it was finished at the cross, the only scrafice that God deems as acceptable.
So you have salvation through the imputed rightousness of Christ (credited to your account)or you dont have salvation at all!

Yes, there is no contradiction if we interpret both correctly.

We have to remember they were writting to two different groups of people who had different issues. So they were saying the exact same thing, only in different contexts. Which is why we MUST look at context to interpret correctly.

 

[newbirth]

In john 3:16 the word believed is used.
It doesn't say believe plus works.
You see GOD does not need to see physical work,He knows the intentions.
With Abraham,GOD saw Abrahams faith and counted it righteous.

If you believe that scripture will not contradict itself then don't you believe that paul and james were inspired by GOD.
remember GOD looks at the heart.
Man looks at the outward appearance.

While I understand what you are saying it is setting a precedent for disobedience. Because if one believes Christ one will obey him. Abraham obeyed God from the time God gave the command In his eyes Isaac was dead. One can intend to do many things but never do any. Do you think God will respect that. Jesus said...Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. He did not say see your good intentions.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? These believed and asked ...What shall we do?

I ask one question How would one know the difference between one who believes and one who does not believe?
Those in John believed maybe they intended to confess but they did not.
[h=3]John 12:41-43[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]41 [/SUP]These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

[h=3]Acts 18:7-8[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.


[h=3]Acts 19:17-19[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.


[h=3]Acts 17:11-13[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

 

[StoneThrower]

Yes, there is no contradiction if we interpret both correctly.

We have to remember they were writting to two different groups of people who had different issues. So they were saying the exact same thing, only in different contexts. Which is why we MUST look at context to interpret correctly.

Amen keep the audiance in mind is very important, its part of the context. Those that pull verses in insolation
to make the text support their claims dont seem to get that.

 

[Roaster]

No. I love James It states a fact. Easy believism, Dead orthodoxy is a dead faith which will NEVER save anyone. And also helps me to see when I examin my own life how strong my faith has been lately, and if I need to do something to strengthen my faith.

Yet I also believe Paul when he says,

Rom 4: 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

You have to resolve these two passages. If not you have scripture contradicting itself. And it is a useless book.

They resolve quite easily when one understands:

Rom 4: 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham was justified by works [alone], he has something to boast about, but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who [relies on] works [alone], his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But to the one who does not [rely on] work [alone], but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

In the light of all else Paul says that is how he has to have meant the above.

Even the part where Paul says, "his faith is credited as righteousness", shows that beginning righteousness is but a credit with a specific purpose.

Many would like that purpose to be to resolve them of all further responsibility. Many are like the small child whom when his father tries to teach him how to do something, to the exasperation of the father that small child often then expects the father to do it all for him rather than to understand that the father is trying to teach him to benefit himself.

God is yet seeking to accomplish the following with the remnant who prove to be the true Israel of God:

Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:
19 Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor destroyed from before me.

Many are like that small child, too weak in themselves to see the purpose of what their Father is doing and put forth any effort of their own in response.

 

[newbirth]

No. I love James It states a fact. Easy believism, Dead orthodoxy is a dead faith which will NEVER save anyone. And also helps me to see when I examin my own life how strong my faith has been lately, and if I need to do something to strengthen my faith.

Yet I also believe Paul when he says,

Rom 4: 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

You have to resolve these two passages. If not you have scripture contradicting itself. And it is a useless book.

James works of faith
Romans works of the law

 

[Roaster]

John 6:28,29

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

How is it that Jesus tells us all things are possible for those that believe in him but many of you yet insist that though you believe in him it is impossible for you to completely keep yourself from sinning?

Is not such belief proved to be doubt?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They resolve quite easily when one understands:

Rom 4: 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham was justified by works [alone], he has something to boast about, but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who [relies on] works [alone], his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But to the one who does not [rely on] work [alone], but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

wow, so you add to the word of God. and expect me to listen to you or give you any sense of credability? Since when do we add to the word of God?

You whole idea is refuted in twos thing Paul says.

Rom 4: 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

1st. He said if he is justified of works, he has something to be proud of (take credit for)

2nd, he said if he is justified by works, he is credited as earning a wage, not grace.

a wage is something you earn. If works of ANY TYPE is done to EARN salvation. then you are earning a wage, Not being given grace (unearned favor, or a gift)

A gift is not earned. why are you trying to earn it?

if you can't get this right, and have to add to the word of God to make your belief real. we have major issues.

I have add nothing to james to get my belief Just interpret correctly. The words as written tell me what he says,