Is justification by faith alone?

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#301
#301
newbirth said:
James works of faith
Romans works of the law
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wrong.

1. There was no law in Abrahams day, so it is not in context.
2. The works Paul spoke of were abraham leaving his family and going to a strange place. Trusting God and attempting to sacrifice his son. don;t destroy context so you can make your belief come true.

If abraham was saved because he left his family in faith. then he earned a wage, and he can boast he is better than everyone else.

If he was saved because he sacrificed his son, again, he earned a wage and can boast of how good he is and how much he earned the love of God and his eternal life.

Nice try.
 
R

Roaster

Guest
#302
#302
newbirth said:
James works of faith
Romans works of the law
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Very close.

I would just tweak that a bit so as to say:

James' faith works law by love.

Romans speaks of working law by one's own shabby righteousness apart from the faith in God's true righteousness through faith.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#303
#303
Roaster said:
John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

How is it that Jesus tells us all things are possible for those that believe in him but many of you yet insist that though you believe in him it is impossible for you to completely keep yourself from sinning?

Is not such belief proved to be doubt?
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lol. Ask Paul. While he wrote to the romans (long after he was made an apostle) he was still sinning. Are you better than paul?

 
R

Roaster

Guest
#304
#304
eternally-gratefull said:
lol. Ask Paul. While he wrote to the romans (long after he was made an apostle) he was still sinning. Are you better than paul?
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Prove that Paul was still sinning.

Show the scriptures which you do not understand are not saying what you think that we may discuss them.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#305
#305
Roaster said:
Very close.

I would just tweak that a bit so as to say:

James' faith works law by love.

Romans speaks of working law by one's own shabby righteousness apart from the faith in God's true righteousness.
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Still wrong.

I can agree with the james, because only one who is saved can do works of love. This is impossible for a person who has never had saving faith. Which is WHY james said faith without works is dead. It proves you were NEVER SAVED (can your faith save you)

I am amazed you people say this proves you can lose salvation when it is not even context. the context is have you ever really been saved or not. Not if you can lose salvation.

But I cannot agree with paul. Paul speaks of works of any type. A work is something you earn a wage, or can boast about.

i can boast of being baptised in water. I can boast of going to church, and not being such a bad sinner as others. i can boast of doing all works of righteousness. Whether I have faith or not.

The fact is, if work is used to gain or not lose salvation. then it is a work of merit/. NOT a work of love no matter how you slice it. THIS is what paul was preaching against/.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#306
#306
Roaster said:
Prove that Paul was still sinning.

Show the scriptures which you do not understand are not saying what you think that we may discuss them.
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Read chapter 7. He speaks in present tense.

I do not do that I want to do. I do the things I do not want to do. Oh what a wretched man I AM.

present tense.

sorry bro. You will not be sinless until you get to heaven, and only then, if you are born again by the blood of Christ.
 
R

Roaster

Guest
#307
#307
eternally-gratefull said:
Still wrong.

I can agree with the james, because only one who is saved can do works of love. This is impossible for a person who has never had saving faith. Which is WHY james said faith without works is dead. It proves you were NEVER SAVED (can your faith save you)
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There you go again with worthless diversionary tactics. You and I both know that it is only the one who has entered into learn from Christ that has such power but it suites your fancy to make me out as saying something other than that.

You half listen as you are posed to seek only fault.
 
R

Roaster

Guest
#308
#308
eternally-gratefull said:
Read chapter 7. He speaks in present tense.

I do not do that I want to do. I do the things I do not want to do. Oh what a wretched man I AM.

present tense.

sorry bro. You will not be sinless until you get to heaven, and only then, if you are born again by the blood of Christ.
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Prove to me that Romans chapter 7 claims Paul continued to sin. Do you not know that Paul was speaking as his former man before he came into Christ, as shown way back at Romans 6:19-20?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#309
#309
Roaster said:
Prove to me that Romans chapter 7 claims Paul continued to sin.
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you do not want to read it?

wow.

I already did. I showed you what he said.

. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. [SUP]16 [/SUP]If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
R

Roaster

Guest
#310
#310
Romans 7:9a "For I was alive without the law once:..."

Was Paul there speaking of his real self?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#311
#311
Roaster said:
There you go again with worthless diversionary tactics. You and I both know that it is only the one who has entered into learn from Christ that has such power but it suites your fancy to make me out as saying something other than that.

You half listen as you are posed to seek only fault.
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No I listen completely.

I see fault because there is fault.

If your trying to be saved by works. your earning a wage,And God says you will never be saved this way,

Grace and works DO NOT MIX. Paul makes this clear.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

trying to mix grace and works is like trying to mix oil and water. they do not mix.


 
R

Roaster

Guest
#312
#312
eternally-gratefull said:
you do not want to read it?

wow.

I already did. I showed you what he said.

. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. [SUP]16 [/SUP]If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
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That well describes the man before Christ and the position he is in when he first meets up with Christ, doesn't it?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#313
#313
Roaster said:
Romans 7:9a "For I was alive without the law once:..."

Was Paul there speaking of his real self?
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He was talking about how he felt before the law came in and proved his sin. Remember, Paul was a pharisee of pharisee, he thought he was sinless. When Jesus on that day showed him the true meaning of the law. He died, He realised how wrong he was.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#314
#314
Roaster said:
That well describes the man before Christ and the position he is in when he first meets up with Christ, doesn't it?
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wrong.

Before he met Christ he was not serving the law of God, he could not. it is impossible to serve the law of God apart from Christ.

Second, he speaks present tense. Not past tense. There you go twisting scripture again.
 
R

Roaster

Guest
#315
#315
eternally-gratefull said:
He was talking about how he felt before the law came in and proved his sin. Remember, Paul was a pharisee of pharisee, he thought he was sinless. When Jesus on that day showed him the true meaning of the law. He died, He realised how wrong he was.
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It would be very convenient for you to see it that way but for the fact that Paul also told us elsewhere that sin is not charged when there is no law, forming the basis for the law having been given to Moses now bringing forth death.

Now, you know i can produce scripture to back that up.

Produce scripture to back up what you there say.
 
O

oldernotwiser

Guest
#316
#316
how about this? if we truly have faith we will choose to walk as if jesus was walking the streets of wherever we live and we are following him. this would suggest that we would at least attempt to show the same love to the weak, the poor, and the outsiders we see on those streets. would this be salvation by works?
 
R

Roaster

Guest
#317
#317
eternally-gratefull said:
wrong.

Before he met Christ he was not serving the law of God, he could not. it is impossible to serve the law of God apart from Christ.

Second, he speaks present tense. Not past tense. There you go twisting scripture again.
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Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#318
#318
Roaster said:
It would be very convenient for you to see it that way but for the fact that Paul also told us elsewhere that sin is not charged when there is no law, forming the basis for the law having been given to Moses now bringing forth death.

Now, you know i can produce scripture to back that up.

Produce scripture to back up what you there say.
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I already used scripture to back up what i said,

You twist scripture to make your belief real. i do not have to.

Have fun..

Paul spoke in present tense, not past. end of story.

he did not say he WAS a wretched man, he says I AM (present tense) a wretched man)

end of story.
 
R

Roaster

Guest
#319
#319
oldernotwiser said:
how about this? if we truly have faith we will choose to walk as if jesus was walking the streets of wherever we live and we are following him. this would suggest that we would at least attempt to show the same love to the weak, the poor, and the outsiders we see on those streets. would this be salvation by works?
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Very good point.

It is the life or salvation which is found in the doing of God's words. God's works, not of our own wisdom, but of God's wisdom.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life [aka, salvation].
 
R

Roaster

Guest
#320
#320
eternally-gratefull said:

I already used scripture to back up what i said,

You twist scripture to make your belief real. i do not have to.

Have fun..

Paul spoke in present tense, not past. end of story.

he did not say he WAS a wretched man, he says I AM (present tense) a wretched man)

end of story.
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Fine, I have no desire to press you or to offend you.

We both have sufficient to think about for now so, OK, will pass by pressing it for the moment.
 
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