Is justification by faith alone?

[SeaBass]

I can believe that a plane is able to get from point A to point B but I am afraid to fly because the plane may have problems getting me there - so no faith in the plane actually doing it.


Is that the answer you are looking for, EG!

So you can believe the plane can get from A to B but have no faith for being afraid to fly.

Or you can have no fear of flying and believe the plane can get from point A to B and have faith it will do so.

So depending on circumstances, the question can be answered with a 'yes' or a 'no'.

(Hopefully my post here does not derail us from getting "the point")

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can believe that a plane is able to get from point A to point B but I am afraid to fly because the plane may have problems getting me there - so no faith in the plane actually doing it.


Is that the answer you are looking for, EG!

You must have some faith in it. or you would never get on the plane would you?? Even a little faith (faith of a mustard seed) will cause work will it not?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you can believe the plane can get from A to B but have no faith for being afraid to fly.

Or you can have no fear of flying and believe the plane can get from point A to B and have faith it will do so.

So depending on circumstances, the question can be answered with a 'yes' or a 'no'.

(Hopefully my post here does not derail us from getting "the point")

No,

if you had no faith period (your faith was dead). you would never get on the plane. You must have some faith in order to do the work of getting on the plane, period.

 

[SeaBass]

I have never seen anyone so afraid. why is that?

question. Can I believe in something, and NOT HAVE faith in that very thing.

Answer. YES.

I can believe a plane will get me to point B, But not have trust that plane will do so. In which case, I will NOT DO THE WORK TO GET ON THE PLANE.

But you asked me the question and from my perspective I have trust/faith the plane can get from A to B so I do the work of getting on the plane.

So my belief that the plane can get from point A to B shows in my working faith to get on the plane.

But if my belief is the plane cannot get from point A to point B then I will not have faith (dead faith) in doing no work to get on the plane. The fact my faith will not let me do the work to get on the plane does not mean that my belief does not exist, it exists as seen by me NOT getting on the plane. It's a dead belief where I will do not works but it still exists.

If the belief I have that the plane cannot get from point A to point B does NOT exist, then why would I have fear of getting on the plane? The fact I do not do the work of getting on the plane proves that dead belief exists.

I can BELIEVE God will raise my child from the dead to keep his promise, (as in the case of Abraham) yet NOT TRUST HIM (have faith) TO DO IT. In which case, I am not going to do the work of sacrificing my sin, why? I do not trust God to keep his promise that he is my heir.

I can believe God is one God, and not the God of the pagans (even the demons believe and tremble) yet not have Faith in what God says. As a result. I may believe him, I may even believe what he says (I am a sinner and need to be saved) but if I do not trust him. I am not going to do the work to change my life, to do what he says, to do anything for him, BECAUSE I DO NOT TRUST HIM.

In ALL these examples. we have a person who BELIEVED in something, But he DID NOT HAVE FAITH (ASSURANCE OR TRUST) In the thing they claimed to believe in. Why? THEIR FAITH WAS DEAD, NON EXISTANT, LIFELESS, HAD NO POWER. HAD NOTHING.

This is what James is trying to share with the people of Israel he wrote to. Are you hearers of the word only (do you just believe in it) or are you doers of the word (proving you actually have faith in what the word says)

Huh?

James said the devils believe. If the devils believe then there must be some type of belief that exists within the devils for if it did not exist James would have said the devils have a non-existing belief.

The fact they do not works proves their belief is dead, inactive. Just like my belief the plane will not get me from point A to point B keeps me from getting on the plane. That belief exists for it keeps me from doing the work of getting on the plane. So it is a dead belief that I have for it keeps me from working - getting on the plane.


When James speaks of a "dead" faith he is contrasting "dead" to a "working/obedient" faith as Abraham had. James is not comparing "dead' to "non-existing".

The devils believe, it exists, but is "dead" for it is not "working/obedient"

 

[SeaBass]

No,

if you had no faith period (your faith was dead). you would never get on the plane. You must have some faith in order to do the work of getting on the plane, period.

IF I had no faith the plane will get from point A to point B, I would not do the work of getting on the plane. So my faith would be dead for it does not have the work of getting on the plane. Yet my belief /faith must still exist for that belief /faith in the plane not getting from point A to point B is what keeps me from doing the work of getting on the plane.

So even though my faith is void of the work of getting on the plane my "faith only" still exists in the plane not getting from A to B. So my "faith only" prevents me from doing the work of getting on God's plane and flying to heaven.

 

[Cobus]

Faith/Truth can be this.....

Some seed fall on the roadside and the birds ate it before there was any life in the seed. NO FAITH! Other seed fell on shallow gorund and quickly shot roots and started to grow the plant...but soon as the son came up the small plant died, Little faith that cannot stand through the heat of life. Many people I know that calls themsleves Chrsitians are in this group.

Then there is the seed that fell and was on good soil, but the weed grew with the good seed and the weed eventually overshaddow and kill the good plants. These are also MANY people that get lost in FALSE teaching (the weed) and they also never get to bear the fruit of a fullgrown Godly plant.

Then there is the seed that fell on good soil and deep roots, they grow to meaturity and shoot great fruit 30 fold 60 fold and 100 fold, BUT ALL GOOD FRUIT.... These are the ones that God takes all the way and they will have GOD'S fruit multiplying in them. Now that is the ONLY faith God gives as a GIFT of the Holy Spirit to the ones HE glorifies with the Spirit. I would say that Faith was in store with God even before the earth was made for these people that will have the Faith and the GIFT of FAITH. Faith is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and I believe it is the FAITH of a perfect man.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
For me a JUST MAN, is a perfect man. And the FAITH this man lives by is the RIGHTEOUS man's faith. not the faith to righteousness the faith OF a righteous man. This is the perfect faith God gives all believers to do GOOD WORKS.

The three words says FAITH TO FAITH... it is the faith of obedince to the FAITH of a RIGHTEOUS man JUST MAN... COMPLETE man... GOD-MAN!

MAy the Lord give me the status of a JUST MAN. Amen!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/B][/COLOR]But you asked me the question and from my perspective I have trust/faith the plane can get from A to B so I do the work of getting on the plane.

So my belief that the plane can get from point A to B shows in my working faith to get on the plane.

But if my belief is the plane cannot get from point A to point B then I will not have faith (dead faith) in doing no work to get on the plane. The fact my faith will not let me do the work to get on the plane does not mean that my belief does not exist, it exists as seen by me NOT getting on the plane. It's a dead belief where I will do not works but it still exists.

Non responsive.

belief and faith are not the same thing. (the point I was trying to show you, But knew you would not understand, which is WHY I asked you a yes or no answer. Even after I showed you. You still do not understand.. Again, I can have belief AND FAITH. But I can also have belief AND NO FAITH. in the second senerio. the persons faith was dead, yet he had belief.

Belief is just belief.

Faith is an actual trust. If you have even the slightest trust in something, You will do what it says.

If you get on the plain., Your faith was NOT DEAD. it had life. even if it was just a little life. it was still alive.

If the belief I have that the plane cannot get from point A to point B does NOT exist, then why would I have fear of getting on the plane? The fact I do not do the work of getting on the plane proves that dead belief exists.

No, the fact you did not get on the plane, shoud you had zero zip nada faith in the plane.

Again, Belief is NOT FAITH. FAITH is MUCH DEEPER.

Huh?

James said the devils believe. If the devils believe then there must be some type of belief that exists within the devils for if it did not exist James would have said the devils have a non-existing belief.

No. James said the devils believe in ONE GOD. He is saying belief is NOT ENOUGH TO SAVE YOU. It takes FAITH TO SAVE, not mere belief.

if you believe you do well, but that is not enough. DO YOU HAVE FAITH?

The fact they do not works proves their belief is dead, inactive. Just like my belief the plane will not get me from point A to point B keeps me from getting on the plane. That belief exists for it keeps me from doing the work of getting on the plane. So it is a dead belief that I have for it keeps me from working - getting on the plane.

The fact they did not do work proves they did not have faith period. It was dead. They MAY HAVE BELIEVED, But they HAD NO FAITH.

When James speaks of a "dead" faith he is contrasting "dead" to a "working/obedient" faith as Abraham had. James is not comparing "dead' to "non-existing".

The devils believe, it exists, but is "dead" for it is not "working/obedient"

wrong. When james speaks of dead faith, he is speaking of no faith at all. A faith which is dead, has NO LIFE. thus it is NO FAITH AT ALL. Just MERE BELIEF

 

[peacefulbeliever]

So you can believe the plane can get from A to B but have no faith for being afraid to fly.

Or you can have no fear of flying and believe the plane can get from point A to B and have faith it will do so.

So depending on circumstances, the question can be answered with a 'yes' or a 'no'.

(Hopefully my post here does not derail us from getting "the point")

I won't derail but what I got from the analogy -

I can believe the plane can get me from point A to point B - I believe I am justified by Jesus Christ

But I don't trust the plane to get me from point A to point B - I don't trust that that is enough - therefore I must add works

 

[eternally-gratefull]

IF I had no faith the plane will get from point A to point B, I would not do the work of getting on the plane. So my faith would be dead for it does not have the work of getting on the plane. Yet my belief /faith must still exist for that belief /faith in the plane not getting from point A to point B is what keeps me from doing the work of getting on the plane.

um. So you do not have faith to get on the plane. thats why you did not get on. Thanks you just proved my point.

trying to twist it to say you must still have faith (the plane will not do what it says it will do) is not helping you. You still prove you have no faith in the plane. Like the people in james, had NO FAITH IN GOD. thats why they did no work. and why they were not saved.

So even though my faith is void of the work of getting on the plane my "faith only" still exists in the plane not getting from A to B. So my "faith only" prevents me from doing the work of getting on God's plane and flying to heaven.

lol. wow. I have never seen anyone so desperate..

Did you have faith in the plain?? No. Thus you did not work

Did they have faith in God? NO. Thus they did not work.

end of story.

did they have faith?? Yes. IN SELF.. which is WHY they could not come to Christ, because they could not stop trusting self/.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I won't derail but what I got from the analogy -

I can believe the plane can get me from point A to point B - I believe I am justified by Jesus Christ

But I don't trust the plane to get me from point A to point B - I don't trust that that is enough - therefore I must add works

yes, you either have faith in God, or faith in self..

faith in self exposes itself in one of two ways,

licentiousness. - james

legalism - paul.

that is why james and paul do not contradict, there context was to 2 different audiences

 

[SeaBass]

[/COLOR]
Non responsive.

belief and faith are not the same thing. (the point I was trying to show you, But knew you would not understand, which is WHY I asked you a yes or no answer. Even after I showed you. You still do not understand.. Again, I can have belief AND FAITH. But I can also have belief AND NO FAITH. in the second senerio. the persons faith was dead, yet he had belief.

Belief is just belief.

Faith is an actual trust. If you have even the slightest trust in something, You will do what it says.

If you get on the plain., Your faith was NOT DEAD. it had life. even if it was just a little life. it was still alive.





No, the fact you did not get on the plane, shoud you had zero zip nada faith in the plane.

Again, Belief is NOT FAITH. FAITH is MUCH DEEPER.



No. James said the devils believe in ONE GOD. He is saying belief is NOT ENOUGH TO SAVE YOU. It takes FAITH TO SAVE, not mere belief.

if you believe you do well, but that is not enough. DO YOU HAVE FAITH?



The fact they did not do work proves they did not have faith period. It was dead. They MAY HAVE BELIEVED, But they HAD NO FAITH.




wrong. When james speaks of dead faith, he is speaking of no faith at all. A faith which is dead, has NO LIFE. thus it is NO FAITH AT ALL. Just MERE BELIEF

Again: James 2:

21 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
22 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James is contrasting a dead faith of v21 to a working faith of v22. So a dead faith is one void of works, it does not mean non-existing.

You posted When james speaks of dead faith, he is speaking of no faith at all.

So when James said the devils believe and tremble, v19, he is saying the devisl have a dead faith that is void of works, he is not saying the devils have "no belief" for he said the "devils believe"

 

[crossnote]

I won't derail but what I got from the analogy -

I can believe the plane can get me from point A to point B - I believe I am justified by Jesus Christ

But I don't trust the plane to get me from point A to point B - I don't trust that that is enough - therefore I must add works

let me try to put a twist on this analogy, see what you think.

I believe the plane can go from point A to B. but I won't get on it out of fear or whatever....unbelief.

I believe the plane can go from point A to B, and board it...faith.

 

[SeaBass]

I won't derail but what I got from the analogy -

I can believe the plane can get me from point A to point B - I believe I am justified by Jesus Christ

But I don't trust the plane to get me from point A to point B - I don't trust that that is enough - therefore I must add works

If you do not trust the plane to get you from point A to point B therefore you must add works???? Is adding works going to get you to trust the plane can get you from point A to point B?

What exactly is believing or not believing a plane can get you from point A to point B suppose to be an analogy of?

Is the plane the "vehicle" that gets you to salvation? If that's the case, then not doing the work of getting on the plane will leave one lost.

Whatever the analogy is suppose to be, eternally-gratfull is trying to claim that when James speaks of a dead faith, James is saying that a dead faith is non-existing when James is actually saying a dead faith is a faith without works. The faith exists is just does not have works.

My "analogy"

If you believe/have faith a plane will not get you from point A to point B, you will not do the work of getting on the plane.

Therefore you have a belief/faith that prevents you from doing the work of getting on the plane.

So your belief/faith does not have the work of getting on the plane, it is dead but not non-existing for its existence is what keeps you from doing the work of getting on the plane. So your dead faith/belief exists, but it will not allow you to do the work of boarding the plane.

Yet if dead means non-existing, then you would not have a belief/faith that would keep you from getting on the plane. So why would you not get on the plane if the belief/faith that the plane would not get you from point A to point B did not exist?



It's a highly convoluted analogy if anything.

 

[SeaBass]

let me try to put a twist on this analogy, see what you think.

I believe the plane can go from point A to B. but I won't get on it out of fear or whatever....unbelief.

I believe the plane can go from point A to B, and board it...faith.

So your faith included the work of boarding.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again: James 2:

21 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
22 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James is contrasting a dead faith of v21 to a working faith of v22. So a dead faith is one void of works, it does not mean non-existing.

You posted When james speaks of dead faith, he is speaking of no faith at all.

So when James said the devils believe and tremble, v19, he is saying the devisl have a dead faith that is void of works, he is not saying the devils have "no belief" for he said the "devils believe"

New flash.

A faith that has no life (dead) IS NO FAITH AT ALL.

of course he said the devils believe. He was proving a point/ BELIEF IS NOT ENOUGH, FAITH SAVES. FAITH PRODUCES WORK. thus IF YOU CLAIM YOU HAVE FAITH. BUT HAVE NO WORKS. YOUR FAITH IS DEAD.

In lamens terms, (since you can not seem to understand it) When you CLAIM YOU HAD FAITH, you were a LIAR!

You want to work to earn your way to heaven, feel free. Good luck though. Your faith is in yourself. NOT GOD. Paul is speaking to you. you continued use of james to justify your works based legalistic gospel is NOT GOING to make it true.

Belief is NOT FAITH.. You can not justify by saying it is.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Out of curiosity, have either of you - SeaBass, Eternally-grateful, etc. ever even consider you can be wrong? Or do you just assume the other person is wrong and you are correct?

 

[SeaBass]

New flash.

A faith that has no life (dead) IS NO FAITH AT ALL.

of course he said the devils believe. He was proving a point/ BELIEF IS NOT ENOUGH, FAITH SAVES. FAITH PRODUCES WORK. thus IF YOU CLAIM YOU HAVE FAITH. BUT HAVE NO WORKS. YOUR FAITH IS DEAD.

In lamens terms, (since you can not seem to understand it) When you CLAIM YOU HAD FAITH, you were a LIAR!

You want to work to earn your way to heaven, feel free. Good luck though. Your faith is in yourself. NOT GOD. Paul is speaking to you. you continued use of james to justify your works based legalistic gospel is NOT GOING to make it true.

Belief is NOT FAITH.. You can not justify by saying it is.

If a faith does not produce works, James said it is dead. But being dead does not mean it does not exist. It is an existing belief that has no works.


...and of course the strawman comes out proving you really have no valid argument at all.

 

[crossnote]

So your faith included the work of boarding.

No, receiving the free ticket

 

[SeaBass]

No, the free ticket

But if you get a free ticket but do not do the work of getting on the plane, then what good is the free ticket?

 

[crossnote]

But if you get a free ticket but do not do the work of getting on the plane, then what good is the free ticket?

it was an analogy not designed to walk on all fours. Christ puts us in Him, it is not something we do.