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Jesus disagrees with you.
He said God is a God of the living, not the dead, and that God told Moses "I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," therefore, they are still living.
Their bodies are not still living, since they all died and were buried, so it is their spirits that are still living.
All human spirits are created immortal.
He said God is a God of the living, not the dead, and that God told Moses "I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," therefore, they are still living.
Their bodies are not still living, since they all died and were buried, so it is their spirits that are still living.
All human spirits are created immortal.
J
Before we are saved we are "dead in trespasses and sins" We see ourselves in Romans chapter one. We are "undone" we are "haters of God" . So the Lord in His sovereignty has to choose those to be saved. However we do not tell the unsaved that----we tell the unsaved that "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
IF God is drawing a person to be saved by His sovereign choice ----that person must just come and accept the gift of God. After he is saved he might see by scripture that he was "chosen before the foundation of the world "
We do not question God ----His ways are not our ways
IF God is drawing a person to be saved by His sovereign choice ----that person must just come and accept the gift of God. After he is saved he might see by scripture that he was "chosen before the foundation of the world "
We do not question God ----His ways are not our ways
I have yet to see Predestination taught in scripture without the presuppositions of Calvin. If it exists, then it should have been taught from the beginning, yet there is absolutely no record anywhere of the principles of Calvinism until Calvin himself. Even at that most sola scripturist do not accept Calvinism either.
Really. I agree that we will all be immortal in the last day, only because Christ arose from the dead. But show me anywhere that immortality of the soul (spirit) was naturally immortal.
Where did the souls exist before they entered a human being? Are you saying they are immortal as God is immortal, thus our souls are the same essence of God? How do you answer the predestination of those to hell, did God just place them in hell?
Could you then explain how those in hell exist? Only as souls?
What do you do with Acts 24:15, Rev 20:13 or I Cor 1`5:12-19? What about I Cor 15:52-54.
Where did the souls exist before they entered a human being? Are you saying they are immortal as God is immortal, thus our souls are the same essence of God? How do you answer the predestination of those to hell, did God just place them in hell?
Could you then explain how those in hell exist? Only as souls?
What do you do with Acts 24:15, Rev 20:13 or I Cor 1`5:12-19? What about I Cor 15:52-54.
As usual, you do not address the words of the text above, where Jesus shows the immortality of the human spirit.
And you do not do so for the same reason I have given before, because the text overturns your false theology, and you refuse to believe it.
It is offensive to see your disregard for the actual words of Scripture, seeking to override them with the "authority" of your human reasoning.
Nor do you know the meaning of "immortality," which is "no death," and has nothing to do with eternal pre-existence.
Our immortal spirits are created, just as our mortal bodies are created.
God is not created, he has no beginning, he always was.
After the death of our bodies, we exist as spirits only, the same way angels exist only as spirits.
These Scriptures pose no issue for immortality of the human spirit.
The resurrection is about our spirits be reunited with our glorified, risen-from-the-dead,
new eternal-dwelling bodies, about our spirits finally being "clothed" again with their bodies.
And you do not do so for the same reason I have given before, because the text overturns your false theology, and you refuse to believe it.
It is offensive to see your disregard for the actual words of Scripture, seeking to override them with the "authority" of your human reasoning.
Nor do you know the meaning of "immortality," which is "no death," and has nothing to do with eternal pre-existence.
Our immortal spirits are created, just as our mortal bodies are created.
God is not created, he has no beginning, he always was.
After the death of our bodies, we exist as spirits only, the same way angels exist only as spirits.
These Scriptures pose no issue for immortality of the human spirit.
The resurrection is about our spirits be reunited with our glorified, risen-from-the-dead,
new eternal-dwelling bodies, about our spirits finally being "clothed" again with their bodies.
Elin,
the text does address that man will be immortal eternally, but the text does not show that God created man with an immortal soul. This is only found is Augustinaianism which was adopted from his connection to Neo-Platonism.
Man sins through his rationality, his soul. If man has an immortal soul, that is Adam, then Adam would have been unable to sin. He would have been perfect, created perfect which is a denial of why God created man. It is also a direct denial of your/Calvin's view of what became known as OSAS.
You are doing a great job at showing that Calvinism just does not align with scripture. You cannot even show any evidence that some man developed the view of scripture that I explained.
Immortal means no beginning, no ending, uncreated. Yet you say man's soul was created immortal. What the Greek phillosophers believed, not scripture.
niether is scripturally correct. Immortal means uncreated. Never had a beginning or end.
Our bodies were not created mortal either. Man became mortal through sin. Satan deceived man and took him captive. He subjected man and this world to decay, corruption and death. Dust to dust of the whole man, body and soul.
Because man failed in his vocation, Christ becomes the solution to recreate the world and man. It is by Christ, by God's will and grace, that man becomes immortal, body and soul.
You can continue with your pseudo-Augustinian/Calvin/Platonism but it has very little to do with scripture.
so you don't believe in the resurrection of the dead. Obviously you don't even believe that your elect will be raised in the last day. Lots of scripture you are ignoring.
but it is not addressing the spirit(soul) separately. It is addressing the resurrection of the dead because Christ, as Incarnated, taking our human nature, body and soul, raised them to immortality.
Your view actually denies the Incarnation and resurrection of Christ as well as your idea of such a falsity as a "limited atonement'.
There does not seem much of your view is scriptural. Lots of man made theories and mostly adopted from pagan ideas and wrapped in Biblical terms.
which is not possible because you think that souls were created immortal, not made immortal by God's will and grace through Christ who became man, complete man, body and soul, to give life to all. I Cor 15:22, Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:52-54.
This is not just a resurrection of believers, but of all men.
the text does address that man will be immortal eternally, but the text does not show that God created man with an immortal soul. This is only found is Augustinaianism which was adopted from his connection to Neo-Platonism.
Man sins through his rationality, his soul. If man has an immortal soul, that is Adam, then Adam would have been unable to sin. He would have been perfect, created perfect which is a denial of why God created man. It is also a direct denial of your/Calvin's view of what became known as OSAS.
You are doing a great job at showing that Calvinism just does not align with scripture. You cannot even show any evidence that some man developed the view of scripture that I explained.
Immortal means no beginning, no ending, uncreated. Yet you say man's soul was created immortal. What the Greek phillosophers believed, not scripture.
niether is scripturally correct. Immortal means uncreated. Never had a beginning or end.
Our bodies were not created mortal either. Man became mortal through sin. Satan deceived man and took him captive. He subjected man and this world to decay, corruption and death. Dust to dust of the whole man, body and soul.
Because man failed in his vocation, Christ becomes the solution to recreate the world and man. It is by Christ, by God's will and grace, that man becomes immortal, body and soul.
You can continue with your pseudo-Augustinian/Calvin/Platonism but it has very little to do with scripture.
so you don't believe in the resurrection of the dead. Obviously you don't even believe that your elect will be raised in the last day. Lots of scripture you are ignoring.
but it is not addressing the spirit(soul) separately. It is addressing the resurrection of the dead because Christ, as Incarnated, taking our human nature, body and soul, raised them to immortality.
Your view actually denies the Incarnation and resurrection of Christ as well as your idea of such a falsity as a "limited atonement'.
There does not seem much of your view is scriptural. Lots of man made theories and mostly adopted from pagan ideas and wrapped in Biblical terms.
which is not possible because you think that souls were created immortal, not made immortal by God's will and grace through Christ who became man, complete man, body and soul, to give life to all. I Cor 15:22, Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:52-54.
This is not just a resurrection of believers, but of all men.
That makes no sense.
The spirits of the patriarchs are living now because their spirits are immortal and did not die when their bodies died.
[quote]Immortal means no beginning, no ending, uncreated.[/quote]
Wrong. . .in addition to not knowing and understanding Scripture, you also do not know and understand the dictionary.
Look it up. . .
You are too uninformed and misinformed to engage in a profitable discussion of Scripture.
It would require exegesis of most of the NT to correct your multitudinous errors,
and not a small amount of educating you regarding the definition of the words involved.
I'm taking a pass on further engagement in this futile effort.
The spirits of the patriarchs are living now because their spirits are immortal and did not die when their bodies died.
[quote]Immortal means no beginning, no ending, uncreated.[/quote]
Wrong. . .in addition to not knowing and understanding Scripture, you also do not know and understand the dictionary.
Look it up. . .
You are too uninformed and misinformed to engage in a profitable discussion of Scripture.
It would require exegesis of most of the NT to correct your multitudinous errors,
and not a small amount of educating you regarding the definition of the words involved.
I'm taking a pass on further engagement in this futile effort.
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I don't see "the elect" as those whom God chose over and above all others created in his image and likeness. Rather, I read scriptures as identifying the elect as those for whom God's Holy Spirit resonates the truth of the spirit of God's breath, his words that speak above the page, and call the lost heart to repentance, reunion, with the Father.
Wrong. . .in addition to not knowing and understanding Scripture, you also do not know and understand the dictionary.
Look it up. . .
You are too uninformed and misinformed to engage in a profitable discussion of Scripture.
It would require exegesis of most of the NT to correct your multitudinous errors,
and not a small amount of educating you regarding the definition of the words involved.
I'm taking a pass on further engagement in this futile effort.[/QUOTE] good choice since Calvinism will never overturn the meaning of scripture. You are kicking against the bricks.
Look it up. . .
You are too uninformed and misinformed to engage in a profitable discussion of Scripture.
It would require exegesis of most of the NT to correct your multitudinous errors,
and not a small amount of educating you regarding the definition of the words involved.
I'm taking a pass on further engagement in this futile effort.[/QUOTE] good choice since Calvinism will never overturn the meaning of scripture. You are kicking against the bricks.
It is just amazing how far from scripture some are who grabbed hold of the many man made theories out there.
One must understand the creation of man and the fall of man in order to grasp from what we are saved. Adam was deceived by Satan and sinned. The condemnation of that sin was death, physical death. Satan took man captive, as well as the world through death. Heb 2:14. Gen 3:19 is the condemnation to dust. Man under the condemnation of death does not have an eternal existence. Satan's purpose is to destroy man and God's creation.
God promised to Adam that there will be a solution, that the devil would be defeated Gen 3:15. Paul states categorically that the Messiah, Christ would save all, Rom 11:32. In Rom 3:24 Paul states that Christ reconciled the world. In Rom 5:12 Paul reiterates the condemnation of death to Adam, and all men. In following vs, this is a gift and the gift is life to all men. Paul again uses the equation in I Cor 15:12-22, states it again in vs 52:54.
It is stated II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:14-17, Heb 2:9, I John 3:8 that Christ came to defeat death and sin, the works of the devil.
The purpose of all this is so that God and man could be rejoined in an eternal union. The offer of eternal life has consequences. Man can choose Christ and inherit eternal life. Or, man can reject Christ and inherit hell.
so, very simply, if Christ did not reconcile the world to God. II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, then man has no eternal existence. The western notion that Christ is saving man from hell is found no place in scripture. Hell and heaven are choices of man. Christ does not either appoint men to heaven or hell.
To answer your question directly, just how is hell or heaven meaningful, if man exists only as a pile of dust, if Christ does not defeat death and sin, the works of the devil. The work of Satan is to destroy God's creation.
One must understand the creation of man and the fall of man in order to grasp from what we are saved. Adam was deceived by Satan and sinned. The condemnation of that sin was death, physical death. Satan took man captive, as well as the world through death. Heb 2:14. Gen 3:19 is the condemnation to dust. Man under the condemnation of death does not have an eternal existence. Satan's purpose is to destroy man and God's creation.
God promised to Adam that there will be a solution, that the devil would be defeated Gen 3:15. Paul states categorically that the Messiah, Christ would save all, Rom 11:32. In Rom 3:24 Paul states that Christ reconciled the world. In Rom 5:12 Paul reiterates the condemnation of death to Adam, and all men. In following vs, this is a gift and the gift is life to all men. Paul again uses the equation in I Cor 15:12-22, states it again in vs 52:54.
It is stated II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:14-17, Heb 2:9, I John 3:8 that Christ came to defeat death and sin, the works of the devil.
The purpose of all this is so that God and man could be rejoined in an eternal union. The offer of eternal life has consequences. Man can choose Christ and inherit eternal life. Or, man can reject Christ and inherit hell.
so, very simply, if Christ did not reconcile the world to God. II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, then man has no eternal existence. The western notion that Christ is saving man from hell is found no place in scripture. Hell and heaven are choices of man. Christ does not either appoint men to heaven or hell.
To answer your question directly, just how is hell or heaven meaningful, if man exists only as a pile of dust, if Christ does not defeat death and sin, the works of the devil. The work of Satan is to destroy God's creation.
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Which confirms the historical record of Calvinism. It just cannot align with scripture on any of its tenets.
Apparently you think God would not know that Christ would be the solution to the works of the devil, namely death and sin. He made His first revelatory pronouncement in Gen 3:15, even before He explains the condemnation of Adams sin,
Gen 3:19. But I can assure you that God did not create man's soul immortal.
Adam would have never sinned, and if that were even possible, your/Calvin concept of redemption never occurs, that is Christ is never Incarnated as man. Incarnated man means both body and soul of man. So if Christ gives life to man by His resurrection and I Cor 15:52-54 states unequivocally that Christ will raise all men to immortality and incorruption, clearly man's soul is not created immortal either.
You have a theology that just does not align with anything. Which is why your definitions are twisted and misused. You need to support suppositions that are imposed upon scripture.
Apparently you think God would not know that Christ would be the solution to the works of the devil, namely death and sin. He made His first revelatory pronouncement in Gen 3:15, even before He explains the condemnation of Adams sin,
Gen 3:19. But I can assure you that God did not create man's soul immortal.
Adam would have never sinned, and if that were even possible, your/Calvin concept of redemption never occurs, that is Christ is never Incarnated as man. Incarnated man means both body and soul of man. So if Christ gives life to man by His resurrection and I Cor 15:52-54 states unequivocally that Christ will raise all men to immortality and incorruption, clearly man's soul is not created immortal either.
You have a theology that just does not align with anything. Which is why your definitions are twisted and misused. You need to support suppositions that are imposed upon scripture.
which area of Theology has lead to most Heresy
I see most coming from Arminian theology - sinless perfectionism, deification of human choice, pelagianism and semi-pelagianism, post modernism, oneness pentacostal, works salvation. I speak in tongues so I can live anyway I want,
What I see from Calvanism is mostly - assumption vs assurance - "I must be elect" or what should I share with that person, they obviously are not elect - where you pigeon hole people, or stop loving them because they must not be a certain way, works salvation
I see most coming from Arminian theology - sinless perfectionism, deification of human choice, pelagianism and semi-pelagianism, post modernism, oneness pentacostal, works salvation. I speak in tongues so I can live anyway I want,
What I see from Calvanism is mostly - assumption vs assurance - "I must be elect" or what should I share with that person, they obviously are not elect - where you pigeon hole people, or stop loving them because they must not be a certain way, works salvation
The record does indeed speak for itself. Christianity, the Gospel of Christ, guided and guarded within His Body has not changed in 2000 years. Which is why you cannot refute scripture as it has always meant from the beginning.
On the other hand, Calvinism can be clearly shown to be a man derived construct and with its many nuances today has only existed for 500 years. Within the sola scriptura melieu it is but one of hundreds of others all competing as to which man can come up with the best ideas.
I could ask a rhetorical question for evidence, knowing that none exists that Calvinism is not derived by man, or that it has always been understood the same from the beginning.
On the other hand, Calvinism can be clearly shown to be a man derived construct and with its many nuances today has only existed for 500 years. Within the sola scriptura melieu it is but one of hundreds of others all competing as to which man can come up with the best ideas.
I could ask a rhetorical question for evidence, knowing that none exists that Calvinism is not derived by man, or that it has always been understood the same from the beginning.
S
Matthew 22:32 refutes the penalty of Adam being postmortem nonexistence.
Death was always considered "rest", "sleep", "waiting" in the Scriptures,
and not once was it ever spoken of as being removal from existence.
***
There is One Salvation, and it is by Grace, through Faith.
Without faith, there is no salvation.
Therefore, if the are those without faith,
Salvation is not universal.
If salvation is not universal, than your understanding of Salvation being the gain of an immortal soul for all men is flawed.
***
Without disagreeing with one of the premises, the logical proof given is solid.
Cass, which premise will you attack, and how?
Death was always considered "rest", "sleep", "waiting" in the Scriptures,
and not once was it ever spoken of as being removal from existence.
***
There is One Salvation, and it is by Grace, through Faith.
Without faith, there is no salvation.
Therefore, if the are those without faith,
Salvation is not universal.
If salvation is not universal, than your understanding of Salvation being the gain of an immortal soul for all men is flawed.
***
Without disagreeing with one of the premises, the logical proof given is solid.
Cass, which premise will you attack, and how?