Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

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M

Michael50

Banned
#581
May 24, 2013
682
10
0
#581
leonardronaldo said:
Ok, Sir. So are you saying Satan and all his angels will not get an everlasting punishment forever as well?
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Satan will be punished. He will get to burn longer than any other sinner. He is responsible for the sins of every person and angel that has ever sinned. That's why he (satan) will burn for a long time. And ultimately, he will be killed.

"Therefore I brought fire from your midst. It devoured you. And I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you.....You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever." (Ezekiel 28:18-19)

Satan is destroyed. Turned into ashes.

"But the wicked shall perish,,,And the enemies of the Lord shall vanish,, into smoke they shall vanish away" (Psalm 37:20)

What will become of wicked humans?

"For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven. And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble....You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day I do this." Says the Lord of Hosts. (Malachi 4:1-3)

Ashes,, like satan and his angels,, humans will be turned into ashes.

Their Sentence: Eternal Death,, with no Ressurection from the 2nd death. It's final!
 
R

rstrats

Senior Member
#582
Aug 28, 2011
723
42
28
#582
leonardronaldo,

re: "So are you saying Satan and all his angels will not get an everlasting punishment forever as well?"

No. And I am also not saying that anyone will not recieve an everlasting punishment.
 
L

leonardronaldo

Guest
#583
#583
Michael50 said:
Satan will be punished. He will get to burn longer than any other sinner. He is responsible for the sins of every person and angel that has ever sinned. That's why he (satan) will burn for a long time. And ultimately, he will be killed.

"Therefore I brought fire from your midst. It devoured you. And I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you.....You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever." (Ezekiel 28:18-19)

Satan is destroyed. Turned into ashes.

"But the wicked shall perish,,,And the enemies of the Lord shall vanish,, into smoke they shall vanish away" (Psalm 37:20)

What will become of wicked humans?

"For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven. And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble....You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day I do this." Says the Lord of Hosts. (Malachi 4:1-3)

Ashes,, like satan and his angels,, humans will be turned into ashes.

Their Sentence: Eternal Death,, with no Ressurection from the 2nd death. It's final!
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interesting point (Ezekiel 28), but how do you say then with the revelation 20:10? Are you gonna interpret forever and ever into ages now?
Psalms 37 and Malachi 4 are arguable though.
 
L

leonardronaldo

Guest
#584
#584
rstrats said:
leonardronaldo,

re: "So are you saying Satan and all his angels will not get an everlasting punishment forever as well?"

No. And I am also not saying that anyone will not recieve an everlasting punishment.
Click to expand...
Ok so what do you think the Bible says about the punishment of Satan in the future? Because if you read verse 41-46, the wicked goats are gonna be departed to the same place as Satan and his angels.
 
R

rstrats

Senior Member
#585
Aug 28, 2011
723
42
28
#585
leonardronaldo,

re: "Ok so what do you think the Bible says about the punishment of Satan in the future?"


Revelation 20:10 in the KJV says that the devil will be cast into the lake of fire where he will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
L

leonardronaldo

Guest
#586
#586
rstrats said:
leonardronaldo,

re: "Ok so what do you think the Bible says about the punishment of Satan in the future?"


Revelation 20:10 in the KJV says that the devil will be cast into the lake of fire where he will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Click to expand...
Cool.
So what did the passage in Matthew 25 say; What the King commands to the wicked goats in His left?
 
M

Michael50

Banned
#587
May 24, 2013
682
10
0
#587
leonardronaldo said:
interesting point (Ezekiel 28), but how do you say then with the revelation 20:10? Are you gonna interpret forever and ever into ages now?
Psalms 37 and Malachi 4 are arguable though.
Click to expand...
The Bible says "the former things shall pass away"... If sin and sinners exist forever in an Eternal Torture Chamber,, that statment would be false.

The Greek word translated "for ever" in this verse "aion",,,where we get the word eon, means ,"an indefinitely long period of time; an age." it is used many time in the bible in connection with things that have already ended.

In Jonah 2:6 "for ever" means three days and three nights. See also Jonah 1:17

In the case of man's punishment, this means,, "as long as he lives" or "until death." See 1 samuel 1:22,28 Exodus 21:6 and Psalm 48:14

So, the wicked will burn in the lake of fire as long as they deserve,,until death.


Think about it,, Most kids don't even reach the age of accountability until about 10 or older,, depending on each individual. So,, if a kid lives to be 20,, and rejects God and dies. How long has this kid been sinning since the age of accountabiblity???

I say no more than 10 years.. A decade. And if you want to throw in the time he slept and wasn't sinning,,so,, hmmmm,, if you live 10 years,, you sleep roughly 1/3,, so,,,,,,,, now it's down to 7 years of sinning....

Billions upon billions upon billions of years with no end in an Eternal Torture Chamber is no Just and Fair punishment for a 20 year old kid with 7 years of sins built up.....

If any country tortures it's citizens,, there is an International outcry, talk of Military intervention, Economic Sanctions, Placed on a Terrorist List. Charged with Human Rights Violations ect...

Yet,, many, have no problem with God torturing their own children for all eternity. Let's face it,, some of our children will not be in heaven. I could never have peace with God knowing my children are suffering in an Eternal Torture Chamber.

The wicked are killed. Make no mistake, "the wages of sin is death."
 
L

leonardronaldo

Guest
#588
#588
Michael50 said:
The Bible says "the former things shall pass away"... If sin and sinners exist forever in an Eternal Torture Chamber,, that statment would be false.

The Greek word translated "for ever" in this verse "aion",,,where we get the word eon, means ,"an indefinitely long period of time; an age." it is used many time in the bible in connection with things that have already ended.

In Jonah 2:6 "for ever" means three days and three nights. See also Jonah 1:17

In the case of man's punishment, this means,, "as long as he lives" or "until death." See 1 samuel 1:22,28 Exodus 21:6 and Psalm 48:14

So, the wicked will burn in the lake of fire as long as they deserve,,until death.


Think about it,, Most kids don't even reach the age of accountability until about 10 or older,, depending on each individual. So,, if a kid lives to be 20,, and rejects God and dies. How long has this kid been sinning since the age of accountabiblity???

I say no more than 10 years.. A decade. And if you want to throw in the time he slept and wasn't sinning,,so,, hmmmm,, if you live 10 years,, you sleep roughly 1/3,, so,,,,,,,, now it's down to 7 years of sinning....

Billions upon billions upon billions of years with no end in an Eternal Torture Chamber is no Just and Fair punishment for a 20 year old kid with 7 years of sins built up.....

If any country tortures it's citizens,, there is an International outcry, talk of Military intervention, Economic Sanctions, Placed on a Terrorist List. Charged with Human Rights Violations ect...

Yet,, many, have no problem with God torturing their own children for all eternity. Let's face it,, some of our children will not be in heaven. I could never have peace with God knowing my children are suffering in an Eternal Torture Chamber.

The wicked are killed. Make no mistake, "the wages of sin is death."
Click to expand...
ok yea, aion literally means age. but think about what Jesus says in matthew 25:46? I believe the word eternal used twice there are the same word in Greek, aren't they? So either they are limited up to some ages, or it is literally eternal.
For your argument in the last 6 paragrapgh (from think about it until the wages of sin is death, i would like you also to think about my post in post #577.
 
D

DragonSlayer

Guest
#589
#589
Geesh...I wonder why so many people don't realize they are being fooled by the false vatican's teachings...

First, ask yourself this question : Does the human spirit have eternal life in itself independently from the Lord ?
The vatican teaches for centuries the human spirit is eternal independently from the Lord,
either the person is good or bad.
What puzzles me is, most people are so eager to follow wherever the herd leads, that they never question those false teachings created by the false shepherds from the vatican.

Well, with this false teaching of eternal life in oneself independently from the Lord, you have to realize, brothers and sisters, that it subliminally teaches that every human, either good or bad, is the equal of the Lord !!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the human spirit never dies independently from the Lord, why would we need salvation then ? Why would we need to get eternal life from the Lord if the human spirit's already eternal ? Why would we physically die anyway ? Why would we fear the lake of fire if we are already the equals of the Lord ? Do you realize now the great heresy of that demonic doctrine ?

Only the Lord is the Lord ! The human spirit is mortal ! And Only the Lord is Source of Salvation and Eternal Life ! Capische ?
There is no such thing as " eternal life " in the the lake of fire. Eternal life belongs to those in Heaven only !!!!!!!!! There is an eternity of torment in the lake of fire for Satan, his demons, and all his followers who would accept to receive the mark of the beast. After that eternity of torment, they will be utterly destroyed because you know what ? Satan is a mortal spiritual creature, and so are all human spirits and physical bodies !!!!!!!!!!!

Do not be deceived, the soul is just as mortal as the physical body is; it's just that the soul has a much longer life span than the physical body, but that does not mean by any means the soul is eternal inherently and independently from the Lord either the person is good or bad, contrary to the blasphemous and demonic doctrines the satanists from the vatican propagate for centuries on billions of ignorant and innocent humans.

Shalom
 
L

leonardronaldo

Guest
#590
#590
leonardronaldo said:
ok yea, aion literally means age. but think about what Jesus says in matthew 25:46? I believe the word eternal used twice there are the same word in Greek, aren't they? So either they are limited up to some ages, or it is literally eternal.
For your argument in the last 6 paragrapgh (from think about it until the wages of sin is death, i would like you also to think about my post in post #577.
Click to expand...
and #419 if you will lol
 
L

leonardronaldo

Guest
#591
#591
DragonSlayer said:
Geesh...I wonder why so many people don't realize they are being fooled by the false vatican's teachings...

First, ask yourself this question : Does the human spirit have eternal life in itself independently from the Lord ?
The vatican teaches for centuries the human spirit is eternal independently from the Lord,
either the person is good or bad.
What puzzles me is, most people are so eager to follow wherever the herd leads, that they never question those false teachings created by the false shepherds from the vatican.

Well, with this false teaching of eternal life in oneself independently from the Lord, you have to realize, brothers and sisters, that it subliminally teaches that every human, either good or bad, is the equal of the Lord !!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the human spirit never dies independently from the Lord, why would we need salvation then ? Why would we need to get eternal life from the Lord if the human spirit's already eternal ? Why would we physically die anyway ? Why would we fear the lake of fire if we are already the equals of the Lord ? Do you realize now the great heresy of that demonic doctrine ?

Only the Lord is the Lord ! The human spirit is mortal ! And Only the Lord is Source of Salvation and Eternal Life ! Capische ?
There is no such thing as " eternal life " in the the lake of fire. Eternal life belongs to those in Heaven only !!!!!!!!! There is an eternity of torment in the lake of fire for Satan, his demons, and all his followers who would accept to receive the mark of the beast. After that eternity of torment, they will be utterly destroyed because you know what ? Satan is a mortal spiritual creature, and so are all human spirits and physical bodies !!!!!!!!!!!

Do not be deceived, the soul is just as mortal as the physical body is; it's just that the soul has a much longer life span than the physical body, but that does not mean by any means the soul is eternal inherently and independently from the Lord either the person is good or bad, contrary to the blasphemous and demonic doctrines the satanists from the vatican propagate for centuries on billions of ignorant and innocent humans.

Shalom
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feel free to join the discussion. just so you know, the OP was a Jehovah Witnesses, who doesn't even believe on the deity of Christ lol.
 
D

DragonSlayer

Guest
#592
#592
Ok, that was the reason the OP was banned. Thanks for the welcome. The Antichrist's spirit is to deny the deity of Christ.
Satan witnesses ( yes, I prefer to call them this way, Lord's name is sacred ) are lead by satanists and most don't know that.

Anyway, I was just passing by, and bringing my small contribution to the current talk show !
( 30 pages ! wow ! ) :)


Jesus is the Lord !
 
R

rstrats

Senior Member
#593
Aug 28, 2011
723
42
28
#593
leonardoronaldo,

re: "So what did the passage in Matthew 25 say; What the King commands to the wicked goats in His left?"


He commnds them to depart from him, and go into the everlasting fire that has been prepared for the devil.
 
M

Michael50

Banned
#594
May 24, 2013
682
10
0
#594
leonardronaldo said:
ok yea, aion literally means age. but think about what Jesus says in matthew 25:46? I believe the word eternal used twice there are the same word in Greek, aren't they? So either they are limited up to some ages, or it is literally eternal.
For your argument in the last 6 paragrapgh (from think about it until the wages of sin is death, i would like you also to think about my post in post #577.
Click to expand...

The cities the Sodom and Gommorah and the cities around them were destroyed with "eternal fire". Yet they are not burning today. No smoke is coming from where those cities were. So we can know, that it is the consequences of that fire that are "eternal" or "everlasting".

The lake of Fire is on the earth. The wicked surround the Holy City, and fire falls from heaven and devours them,, making the surface of the earth, a literal lake of fire.

When God makes a new heaven and a new earth,,what do you suppose happens to the former one? I tell you it shall pass away. I see no evidence of God keeping the lake of fire in the new earth,,do you? The former things are gone. Sin and sinners are no more...Gods Universe Safe from the the ravages of sin. No more temptation.

I read # 577.. I'm not sure what you were relating, so, I don't want to comment until I understand what you mean... Could you rephrase it?
 
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leonardronaldo

Guest
#595
#595
rstrats said:
leonardoronaldo,

re: "So what did the passage in Matthew 25 say; What the King commands to the wicked goats in His left?"


He commnds them to depart from him, and go into the everlasting fire that has been prepared for the devil.
Click to expand...
Thank you sir. Let's praise God for He has saved us from keep being wicked goats like we used to.
 
L

leonardronaldo

Guest
#596
#596
Michael50 said:
The cities the Sodom and Gommorah and the cities around them were destroyed with "eternal fire". Yet they are not burning today. No smoke is coming from where those cities were. So we can know, that it is the consequences of that fire that are "eternal" or "everlasting".

The lake of Fire is on the earth. The wicked surround the Holy City, and fire falls from heaven and devours them,, making the surface of the earth, a literal lake of fire.

When God makes a new heaven and a new earth,,what do you suppose happens to the former one? I tell you it shall pass away. I see no evidence of God keeping the lake of fire in the new earth,,do you? The former things are gone. Sin and sinners are no more...Gods Universe Safe from the the ravages of sin. No more temptation.

I read # 577.. I'm not sure what you were relating, so, I don't want to comment until I understand what you mean... Could you rephrase it?
Click to expand...
Which verse is that saying eternal fire burns sodom?
Ok then i'll just repost it with the 419.

#419
How does it 'seem unjust' for God to punish eternally those who reject His Son and His Spirit of Truth?
How is it just for God to justify and later glorify eternally the other wicked sinners, but did the opposite of the first question?

#577
why do some people only believe it's just for God to receive them in His presence for just believing in a Gift and Grace from Son of God and the Holy Spirit in some 2 to 40 years or so?
Forever?
And even later glorify them?
Who are Christians, they still sin, they are not holy, what do christians' worth?

the same words 'eternal' used twice in matthew 25:46 (as i checked in greek on blueletterbible.org, also the same exact word in greek) is another proof (so not only both conditions are related and compared in one sentence). so either both the Gift of Life and the punishment is eternal or both the Gift of Life and the punishment is limited to an age.
That's what i see.
Blessings
 
R

rstrats

Senior Member
#597
Aug 28, 2011
723
42
28
#597
leonardronaldo,

re: " Let's praise God for He has saved us from keep being wicked goats like we used to."


I'm afraid I'm missing your point. I wonder if you might elaborate?
 
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leonardronaldo

Guest
#598
#598
rstrats said:
leonardronaldo,

re: " Let's praise God for He has saved us from keep being wicked goats like we used to."


I'm afraid I'm missing your point. I wonder if you might elaborate?
Click to expand...
Sure sir. Who are the Goats on the King's left? and who are the Sheeps on the King's right?
just to be completely clear.
 
R

rstrats

Senior Member
#599
Aug 28, 2011
723
42
28
#599
leonardoronaldo,

re: "Who are the Goats on the King's left? and who are the Sheeps on the King's right?"


The unsaved and the saved? Where are you going with this?
 
M

Michael50

Banned
#600
May 24, 2013
682
10
0
#600
leonardronaldo said:
Which verse is that saying eternal fire burns sodom?
Ok then i'll just repost it with the 419.

#419
How does it 'seem unjust' for God to punish eternally those who reject His Son and His Spirit of Truth?
How is it just for God to justify and later glorify eternally the other wicked sinners, but did the opposite of the first question?

#577
why do some people only believe it's just for God to receive them in His presence for just believing in a Gift and Grace from Son of God and the Holy Spirit in some 2 to 40 years or so?
Forever?
And even later glorify them?
Who are Christians, they still sin, they are not holy, what do christians' worth?

the same words 'eternal' used twice in matthew 25:46 (as i checked in greek on blueletterbible.org, also the same exact word in greek) is another proof (so not only both conditions are related and compared in one sentence). so either both the Gift of Life and the punishment is eternal or both the Gift of Life and the punishment is limited to an age.
That's what i see.
Blessings
Click to expand...
Jude 7 "eternal fire'

Torture! If you know God is going to torture you forever and ever if you reject Him,,,, then I would have to believe that heaven would be full of a bunch of people that worshipped God because they were scared of Him.

Reminds me of all the smiling faces of the Citizens of North korea when their Dear Leader tells them to be happy.

And when their Dear Leader Kim Jong il died,, they had to literally cry in the streets. And anybody that didn't cry was in trouble with the State!


Who would approach a God that Tortures His Creation out of Love? Not me.

If you believe God tortures those who reject Him for Billions upon Billions of years with no end,,, then you don't know the God I do.

I would compare a God that has an Eternal Torture Chamber to Kim Jung il,,, or Adolph Hitler,,,an evil tyrannt,, not worthy of worship.

If I had any fear that God does have an Eternal Torture Chamber where He keeps the wicked,, I wouldn't so much as enter into conversation about God. Lest He see me make a mistake and hurt me,, like many abusive parents do to their children.
 
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