Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

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nathan3

Guest
#61
That is called "scripture twisting".
No. It is called What the scriptures call it :


2 Timothy 2:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I don't study to shew myself approved of you or any man. But God. as it states. Lets all put aside childish name calling, and actually get into the word.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#62
Also, Alter2Ego, in the mean time, If you did not watch that video I posted here. Then please take the time. to watch the full study and take notes.
 
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Shiloah

Guest
#63
I agree Elizabeth.

Jesus warned of Hell more than he mentioned Heaven. Now why would Jesus warn us about hell, if death is the end of the wicked? Shiloah said that God would resurrect the wicked just to torch them and then they die again. What nonsense.
Everything I see you post is based on your opinion. And yet you accuse others of twisting scriptures you never even address. Different people as well as myself have posted scriptures showing that the world will be destroyed by fire and that the devil and his angels will be thrown in there. I'm sure you're very aware, or you should be since you claim to be so scripturally knowledgeable, of all the warnings in scriptures about being thrown into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels. It has also been shown repeatedly that the world will be destroyed by fire before it is made new.

You think the words SECOND DEATH are used in scriptures by mere accident? Second death, as in, you already died once? And then you're going to die again?

You cannot reconcile your ridiculous belief with all scriptures that pertain to this subject and yet you tell others they're twisting scriptures when not only do you twist them, you ignore entirely all those that don't support your position.
 
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danschance

Guest
#64
Its not a con what Christ said, in the parable, its a parable, about real people, but showing you how things really are.

What is a figure of speech you should understand is, the , fire is one of emotions that he did not make it, he is still in judgement .Not that he is in litteral flames. its a figure of speech the bible always used .

Its just a matter of us recognizing what we are reading, and the figures of speech when we see them.The hebrew sayings.

And, throwing his children into fire to burn is not in God's character, and it never was.

Just because we cant seem to understand parables and figures of speech used in the bible does not negate what we do understand, and should accept



Matthew 10:28.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jeremiah 32:35

King James Version (KJV)

35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.


So we see God is not in the habit of burning people.. The bible is not a hollywood movie. and we should remove those images from our mind about this. The Bible however, was not written in English, and at some point, we should mature enough to study it into the languages it was written in.


And God is not about scaring people into loving him... If people have a attitude to God, and want to sin, let them sin still. That is their choice, and let them have a nice trip .

Oh, I get it. To change the meaning of things you disagree with, just twist the text!!!!!!!!!!!

Like:
1) Jesus called two disciples "sons of thunder".. which means their daddy was a bolt of litghning.

2) Job had sores. Which really means he he was crying alot, cuz " She weepeth sore in the night" Lamentations 1:2

3) So when King Nebuchadnezzar put Shadrach, meshach and Abednego in the furnace it really meant they were angry.

[video=youtube;eh8eb_ACLl8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh8eb_ACLl8[/video]
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#65
Well I'm out of this thread. It's getting too hateful.
 
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Shiloah

Guest
#66
Yeah, right... it is a "parable" wink, wink.

1) What a ridicules argument. It is a story not a parable! No parable ever includes the names of real people.

2) Even if it is a parable it is still about Hell. WHy would Jesus add a "parable" of hell if hell is not real? Jesus would never tell a "parable" if it was not about true?

Jesus said "22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.." Luke 16:22

Why would Jesus say that after Lazarus died the angels carried him to Abraham's bosom, if there is no such place? Why would Jesus even talk about life after death if it is not real? Why would Jesus say the rich man was in torment after death if this is not true for some?

Jesus used parables to teach kingdom principles. The only principle I can see taught in this "parable" is that we are warned of Hell. We are informed of a reward or a dire punishment. Unless you plan on twisting this further.

Utterly ridicules.
Same old ridiculous claim that parables can't use actual names when no where in scriptures does it say this.

I have noticed that people with totally bogus beliefs that refuse regardless of proof to abandon them repeatedly make the same accusations no matter how many time those accusations have been proved wrong to them. It's like their brains are broken records that continually skip back to the start of their argument every time they readdress the issue. They apparently have no ability to think beyond the maze of their own thinking of which invariable runs into a brick. They run into a brick wall? Hey! Let's just go back and start over!

The definition of insanity is to keep trying the same thing expecting a different result. In this case, the definition of the refusal to accept the truth is to continually reform the same argument that is inevitably disproved, and yet what do you do? Go back to square one and reformulate that same argument, expecting a different result.

And when you can't win? You pull the "you guys are part of cult" card!
 
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danschance

Guest
#67
Well I'm out of this thread. It's getting too hateful.
It's getting surreal. Lifting one meaning from one scripture and pasting it out of context in another and calling that scholarly is twilight zone.
 
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danschance

Guest
#68
Same old ridiculous claim that parables can't use actual names when no where in scriptures does it say this.

I have noticed that people with totally bogus beliefs that refuse regardless of proof to abandon them repeatedly make the same accusations no matter how those accusations have been proved wrong. It's like their brains are broken records that continually skip back to the start of their argument every time they readdress the issue. They apparently have no ability to think beyond the maze of their own thinking of which invariable runs into a brick. They run into a brick wall? Hey! Let's just go back and start over!

The definition of insanity is to keep trying the same thing expecting a different result. In this case, the definition of the refusal to accept the truth is to continually reform the same argument that is inevitably disproved, and yet what do you do? Go back to square one and reformulate that same argument, expecting a different result.

And when you can't win? You pull the "you guys are part of cult" card!
Shiloah, can you think of one more "parable" Jesus told that includes a personal name?
 
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nathan3

Guest
#69
Oh, I get it. To change the meaning of things you disagree with, just twist the text!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, your not addressing any, of the scriptures posted. You can't refute what is plainly written. So why dont you comment on the scriptures posted ?

I wount be posting in the thread till I do some word studies here. be back some time later. in the week.
 
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Shiloah

Guest
#70
Shiloah, can you think of one more "parable Jesus told that includes a personal name?
It wouldn't matter if there was no other parable with a name in it; that would not prove it wasn't a parable. How about you actually read through a quality article here? I've no idea if it belongs to one of what you think is a cult, but once again, that should have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the points made are perfectly valid.

As this passage and the parallel Scripture in Mark 4 clearly state, Yeshua spoke to the people in parables to hide the spiritual meaning of what he was saying. He only intended for his disciples to understand what the parables truly meant. It is no wonder, then, that so many have misunderstood what Christ was teaching with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Let's start by getting some background information on the situation in which Christ told this parable. Luke tells us that all the tax collectors and sinners were coming to Christ to hear what he had to say (Luke 15:1). This made the Pharisees and scribes jealous and they complained, vehemently criticizing Yeshua for receiving sinners and eating with them (Luke 15:2). They were probably envious of Christ's growing fame, afraid that his popularity would diminish their own authority and prestige.

So the Messiah first spoke a three-part parable (the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son) to those gathered around him. This parable was designed to show the tax collectors and sinners (as well as the Pharisees) that God was concerned for them and that He would seek out the lost and welcome them into His family when they repented and turned back to Him.

The self-righteous, accusing Pharisees and scribes, who Christ acknowledged as the legitimate religious teachers of the Jews (Matt. 23:1-3), should have been the ones telling these people of God's love for them. They should have been the ones teaching these sinners, exhorting them to return to God and receive His love and forgiveness. However, because of their faith in their own righteousness and their contempt for these tax collectors and sinners who didn't measure up to their standards, the Pharisees and scribes excluded them and considered them accursed (John 7:49).

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Christ related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13). The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Jesus. The final part of Christ's response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

We'll now examine this parable in detail to grasp exactly what the Messiah was teaching about the Kingdom of God.

LUKE 16:19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day." (NKJV)
We begin by scrutinizing the description Christ gives us of the rich man. First, he tells us that this man is clothed in purple and fine linen. This type of clothing would not have been out of the ordinary for one of considerable wealth during this time period. However, this raiment also has symbolic meaning. The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary says: "The wearing of purple was associated particularly with royalty . . ." ("Purple," p. 863). In addition, the New Bible Dictionary tells us: "The use of linen in OT times was prescribed for priests (Ex. 28:39). The coat, turban and girdle must be of fine linen." ("Linen," p. 702).

So we see that the garments worn by this rich man were symbolic of royalty and the priesthood. With that in mind, let's see what God told Moses just before giving the Israelites the Law on Mount Sinai.

EXODUS 19:6 And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel. (Brenton's LXX)

The clothing of the rich man identifies him symbolically with the people of Israel, who God chose to be a special people. They were called to be a witness to the nations surrounding them, confirming the blessings available to those who would obey God and keep His laws. Unfortunately, only infrequently did they live up to the high calling given to them by the Eternal. Eventually He had to send them into captivity for their refusal to honor their part of the covenant ratified at Mount Sinai. At the time of Christ, only the remnant of the house of Judah which had returned from the Babylonian captivity continued to have a covenant relationship with God. The rich man in this parable represents the Jews of Jesus' day, exemplified by the religious teachers, the Pharisees and scribes.

Verse 19 also tells us that the rich man "fared sumptuously every day." Figuratively, this represents the magnificent spriritual feast available only to the Jews, who were the sole remaining part of God's called people Israel. In the first century A.D., they were the only people on earth who had the true religion. Indeed, Paul recounts the glorious station of the house of Judah in Romans 9:3-5.

ROMANS 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen. (RSV)

The Jews were truly rich, feasting on God's spiritual blessings. Yet these very gifts caused them to stumble because they prompted them to self-righteousness. They gloried in the gifts, without glorifying the Eternal God who gave them. Instead of being a "royal priesthood" that was a blessing to all nations, they instead loathed and despised the surrounding Gentile peoples. Certainly, as Paul wrote, "their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them" (Rom. 11:9).

LUKE 16:20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores." (NKJV)

In contrast to the rich man, we now see Lazarus. The first thing to note is that he is depicted as a beggar. This is an apt description of the Gentiles who "laid at the gate" of Judah. Paul describes the predicament of the Gentiles before they received Christ in Ephesians 2:12.

EPHESIANS 2:12 Remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (RSV)

This Scripture is also a fitting representation of the position of the Gentile nations before the Messiah's sacrifice for the world's sins. They were certainly "excluded from the commonwealth of Israel," "strangers to the covenants of promise," and "without hope and without God in the world." The Gentiles were beggars, located outside Judah and longing to be fed spiritual crumbs from the table of the divinely blessed Jews.

Additionally, we are told that dogs came and consoled Lazarus in his misery, licking his sores. The Jews considered the surrounding Gentiles to be unclean "dogs." Even Christ himself used this unflattering comparison when he conversed with the Greek Syrophoenician woman while in the region of Tyre (Mark 7:24-30).

Also important to the story is the meaning of the name Lazarus. This Greek name is a form of the Hebrew Eleazer, and it literally means "he whom God helps." The use of this particular name is very significant to the message of the parable, for the Gentiles would indeed become "those whom God helped" through the sacrifice of His son, Yeshua.

LUKE 16:22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried." (NKJV)

The next events recorded in this parable are the deaths of Lazarus and then the rich man. Since the parable has been figurative up until this point, there is no reason to assume it becomes literal now.

First, to prove that this language is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally, let's examine exactly what we are told by Christ. He says that first, Lazarus dies and is taken to the bosom of Abraham. Notice, there is no mention of his burial here. Then later the rich man dies, and he is buried (in Hades, according to verse 23). So the time sequence given indicates that upon his death, Lazarus was taken immediately to Abraham's bosom, while afterward the rich man was buried in Hades after his death.

If this story is literal, then we have a contradiction in the Bible. Here, Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life. Yet the author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God.

HEBREWS 11:13 All these [Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc.] died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. . . . 39 And all these [including Abraham], having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. (NASB)

The great men and women of faith listed in Hebrews 11 have not yet been made perfect and given eternal life. They, along with all the saints of God from every age, are currently sleeping in their graves (Job 3:11-19; Psa. 6:5; 115:17; Ecc. 9:5, 10; I Cor. 15:20; Isa. 57:1-2; Dan. 12:2; Acts 2:29, 34; 13:36). These saints are awaiting the first resurrection, which will take place when Yeshua the Messiah returns at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Matt. 24:30-31; I Cor. 15:51-52; I The. 4:16; Rev. 11:15-18).

Clearly, there is no way to reconcile the numerous Scriptures listed above with a literal understanding of the story of Lazarus and the rich man. What, then, does the death of these two men represent?

The deaths of both the rich man (who represented the Jews) and Lazarus (who represented the Gentile nations) are symbolic in this parable. Here, their demise depicts an elemental change in the status and position of the two groups.

To confirm this, let's look at the meaning of Lazarus being "carried to Abraham's bosom." The figurative meaning of being in one's bosom is to be in a position of closeness, to be highly regarded. This symbolism is indicated by the ancient practice of having guests at a feast recline on the chest of their neighbors. The place of highest honor would therefore belong to the one seated next to the host, calling to mind the example of John at the Last Supper (John 13:23). Paul explains this imagery in Galatians 3:6-9 by telling us how the Gentiles could be in this place of highest honor.

GALATIANS 3:6 . . . Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. (NKJV)

As the passage above (as well as the fourth and ninth chapters of Romans) shows, Gentile believers become "sons of Abraham" through faith in Christ. This faith allows Gentiles to no longer be "strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God" (Eph. 2:19). For centuries the Jews had received the benefits of being God's chosen people by virtue of being Abraham's physical descendants. But after the sacrifice of Christ, this place of honor and blessing would be given to the people represented by Lazarus. This is the meaning of being "carried to the bosom of Abraham" in this parable.

In contrast to Lazarus, the rich man was buried in Hades. An understanding of the original meaning of the Greek word hades is necessary to grasp the message of the parable. Regarding the possible etymology of this word, the The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states that hades ". . . comes from idein (to see) with the negative prefix, a-, and so would mean the invisible . . . In the LXX hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb. she'ol, the underworld which receives all the dead. It is the land of darkness . . ." (vol. 2, p. 206).

I could post sites to examine; you wouldn't even look at them. You aren't looking for truth because you're sure you have it. The Lazarus parable is one of five Jesus told in a row. Read through them all again.

MATTHEW 13:1 On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. 2 And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. 3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables . . . 10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 for the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.'" (NKJV)
 
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Shiloah

Guest
#71
Well I'm out of this thread. It's getting too hateful.
Nah, it's just Danchance doing his usual name calling when he finally runs out of any viable scriptural evidence to support his position by posting insulting and condescending videos and accusing people of being members of cults, like a small child throwing a temper tantrum.
 
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danschance

Guest
#72
Well, your not addressing any, of the scriptures posted. You can't refute what is plainly written. So why dont you comment on the scriptures posted ?

I wount be posting in the thread till I do some word studies here. be back some time later. in the week.
Honestly, how can I respond to a man who says the fire the rich man was in, is just a figure of speech. ...and that it really means he was angry. You ignore the context. You can not substitute a metaphor into a passage to change the meaning of that passage....and then you call that studying the bible.

Sorry, but if that is the state of your logic, no one can explain it but you. Cutting and pasting metaphors and applying them to a real situation means you can prove anything you wish in the bible. I can not argue with that sort of "Frankensteinian" theology.

I really can not debate anything with someone who uses asymmetrical logic.
 
Oct 13, 2012
107
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0
#73
So if Hell isn't eternal torment then why do people fear it so much?
If I die and don't make it to Heaven then it seems that isn't a big deal. I might be tortured, but only for a while. So if there is no eternal punishment then maybe I should stop trying so hard to be a good person. I really have nothing to fear after death. If I don't receive eternal life then Ohh well. I'll just cease to exist.
ALTER2EGO -to- ELIZABETH 619:
Because they do not realize "hell" it is nothing more than mankind's common grave. They have been lied to by false religious teachings not supported by the Judeo-Christian Bible.
 
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Shiloah

Guest
#74
Honestly, how can I respond to a man who says the fire the rich man was in, is just a figure of speech. ...and that it really means he was angry. You ignore the context. You can not substitute a metaphor into a passage to change the meaning of that passage....and then you call that studying the bible.

Sorry, but if that is the state of your logic, no one can explain it but you. Cutting and pasting metaphors and applying them to a real situation means you can prove anything you wish in the bible. I can not argue with that sort of "Frankensteinian" theology.

I really can not debate anything with someone who uses asymmetrical logic.
Golly Danchance, do you read the article I posted? Obviously not?
 
Oct 13, 2012
107
0
0
#76
So if Hell isn't eternal torment then why do people fear it so much?
If I die and don't make it to Heaven then it seems that isn't a big deal. I might be tortured, but only for a while. So if there is no eternal punishment then maybe I should stop trying so hard to be a good person. I really have nothing to fear after death. If I don't receive eternal life then Ohh well. I'll just cease to exist.

I guess what I'm saying us I'm trying too hard to follow God. Thanks guys for pointing it out to me. It's obvious from this teaching that hell isn't a big deal and there really is nothing to fear.
ALTER2EGO -to- ELIZABETH 619:
We are supposed to try hard to please our Creator out of appreciation and out of love for him, because he gives us life and because he allowed his beloved son to repurchase us from Adamic death.

You respect your parents and other loved ones and try not to displease them; CORRECT? And we both know that your loved ones do not threaten to torture you the rest of your life if you fail to please them. Yet, you do try to please them most of the time and do not do it out of fear. Now, extend that same idea to Almighty God Jehovah who is responsible for us all being here. Do that, and you will see that there is no need for people to be terrorized with threats of fictional hellfire torment in order for them to see the need to worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.


"He has told you, O earthling man, what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God?"
(Micah 6:8)


So if you need fictional hell to frighten you into doing right, be aware that Jehovah can read your motives. Not only that, it indicates you are doing right for the wrong reasons: out of fear of fictional torment from a sadistic god who is not the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible. Motives matter.


Once that fear of literal hellfire torment is removed, you are not supposed to resort to wrongdoing. You are supposed to feel relief and appreciation that our Creator is not the sadist he is being made out to be. And then use that knowledge in positive ways.

 
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danschance

Guest
#77
It wouldn't matter if there was no other parable with a name in it; that would not prove it wasn't a parable. How about you actually read through a quality article here? I've no idea if it belongs to one of what you think is a cult, but once again, that should have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the points made are perfectly valid.

As this passage and the parallel Scripture in Mark 4 clearly state, Yeshua spoke to the people in parables to hide the spiritual meaning of what he was saying. He only intended for his disciples to understand what the parables truly meant. It is no wonder, then, that so many have misunderstood what Christ was teaching with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Let's start by getting some background information on the situation in which Christ told this parable. Luke tells us that all the tax collectors and sinners were coming to Christ to hear what he had to say (Luke 15:1). This made the Pharisees and scribes jealous and they complained, vehemently criticizing Yeshua for receiving sinners and eating with them (Luke 15:2). They were probably envious of Christ's growing fame, afraid that his popularity would diminish their own authority and prestige.

So the Messiah first spoke a three-part parable (the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son) to those gathered around him. This parable was designed to show the tax collectors and sinners (as well as the Pharisees) that God was concerned for them and that He would seek out the lost and welcome them into His family when they repented and turned back to Him.

The self-righteous, accusing Pharisees and scribes, who Christ acknowledged as the legitimate religious teachers of the Jews (Matt. 23:1-3), should have been the ones telling these people of God's love for them. They should have been the ones teaching these sinners, exhorting them to return to God and receive His love and forgiveness. However, because of their faith in their own righteousness and their contempt for these tax collectors and sinners who didn't measure up to their standards, the Pharisees and scribes excluded them and considered them accursed (John 7:49).

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Christ related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13). The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Jesus. The final part of Christ's response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

We'll now examine this parable in detail to grasp exactly what the Messiah was teaching about the Kingdom of God.
LUKE 16:19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day." (NKJV)
We begin by scrutinizing the description Christ gives us of the rich man. First, he tells us that this man is clothed in purple and fine linen. This type of clothing would not have been out of the ordinary for one of considerable wealth during this time period. However, this raiment also has symbolic meaning. The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary says: "The wearing of purple was associated particularly with royalty . . ." ("Purple," p. 863). In addition, the New Bible Dictionary tells us: "The use of linen in OT times was prescribed for priests (Ex. 28:39). The coat, turban and girdle must be of fine linen." ("Linen," p. 702).

So we see that the garments worn by this rich man were symbolic of royalty and the priesthood. With that in mind, let's see what God told Moses just before giving the Israelites the Law on Mount Sinai.
EXODUS 19:6 And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel. (Brenton's LXX)

The clothing of the rich man identifies him symbolically with the people of Israel, who God chose to be a special people. They were called to be a witness to the nations surrounding them, confirming the blessings available to those who would obey God and keep His laws. Unfortunately, only infrequently did they live up to the high calling given to them by the Eternal. Eventually He had to send them into captivity for their refusal to honor their part of the covenant ratified at Mount Sinai. At the time of Christ, only the remnant of the house of Judah which had returned from the Babylonian captivity continued to have a covenant relationship with God. The rich man in this parable represents the Jews of Jesus' day, exemplified by the religious teachers, the Pharisees and scribes.

Verse 19 also tells us that the rich man "fared sumptuously every day." Figuratively, this represents the magnificent spriritual feast available only to the Jews, who were the sole remaining part of God's called people Israel. In the first century A.D., they were the only people on earth who had the true religion. Indeed, Paul recounts the glorious station of the house of Judah in Romans 9:3-5.
ROMANS 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen. (RSV)

The Jews were truly rich, feasting on God's spiritual blessings. Yet these very gifts caused them to stumble because they prompted them to self-righteousness. They gloried in the gifts, without glorifying the Eternal God who gave them. Instead of being a "royal priesthood" that was a blessing to all nations, they instead loathed and despised the surrounding Gentile peoples. Certainly, as Paul wrote, "their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them" (Rom. 11:9).
LUKE 16:20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores." (NKJV)

In contrast to the rich man, we now see Lazarus. The first thing to note is that he is depicted as a beggar. This is an apt description of the Gentiles who "laid at the gate" of Judah. Paul describes the predicament of the Gentiles before they received Christ in Ephesians 2:12.
EPHESIANS 2:12 Remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (RSV)

This Scripture is also a fitting representation of the position of the Gentile nations before the Messiah's sacrifice for the world's sins. They were certainly "excluded from the commonwealth of Israel," "strangers to the covenants of promise," and "without hope and without God in the world." The Gentiles were beggars, located outside Judah and longing to be fed spiritual crumbs from the table of the divinely blessed Jews.

Additionally, we are told that dogs came and consoled Lazarus in his misery, licking his sores. The Jews considered the surrounding Gentiles to be unclean "dogs." Even Christ himself used this unflattering comparison when he conversed with the Greek Syrophoenician woman while in the region of Tyre (Mark 7:24-30).

Also important to the story is the meaning of the name Lazarus. This Greek name is a form of the Hebrew Eleazer, and it literally means "he whom God helps." The use of this particular name is very significant to the message of the parable, for the Gentiles would indeed become "those whom God helped" through the sacrifice of His son, Yeshua.
LUKE 16:22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried." (NKJV)

The next events recorded in this parable are the deaths of Lazarus and then the rich man. Since the parable has been figurative up until this point, there is no reason to assume it becomes literal now.

First, to prove that this language is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally, let's examine exactly what we are told by Christ. He says that first, Lazarus dies and is taken to the bosom of Abraham. Notice, there is no mention of his burial here. Then later the rich man dies, and he is buried (in Hades, according to verse 23). So the time sequence given indicates that upon his death, Lazarus was taken immediately to Abraham's bosom, while afterward the rich man was buried in Hades after his death.

If this story is literal, then we have a contradiction in the Bible. Here, Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life. Yet the author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God.
HEBREWS 11:13 All these [Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc.] died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. . . . 39 And all these [including Abraham], having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. (NASB)

The great men and women of faith listed in Hebrews 11 have not yet been made perfect and given eternal life. They, along with all the saints of God from every age, are currently sleeping in their graves (Job 3:11-19; Psa. 6:5; 115:17; Ecc. 9:5, 10; I Cor. 15:20; Isa. 57:1-2; Dan. 12:2; Acts 2:29, 34; 13:36). These saints are awaiting the first resurrection, which will take place when Yeshua the Messiah returns at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Matt. 24:30-31; I Cor. 15:51-52; I The. 4:16; Rev. 11:15-18).

Clearly, there is no way to reconcile the numerous Scriptures listed above with a literal understanding of the story of Lazarus and the rich man. What, then, does the death of these two men represent?

The deaths of both the rich man (who represented the Jews) and Lazarus (who represented the Gentile nations) are symbolic in this parable. Here, their demise depicts an elemental change in the status and position of the two groups.

To confirm this, let's look at the meaning of Lazarus being "carried to Abraham's bosom." The figurative meaning of being in one's bosom is to be in a position of closeness, to be highly regarded. This symbolism is indicated by the ancient practice of having guests at a feast recline on the chest of their neighbors. The place of highest honor would therefore belong to the one seated next to the host, calling to mind the example of John at the Last Supper (John 13:23). Paul explains this imagery in Galatians 3:6-9 by telling us how the Gentiles could be in this place of highest honor.
GALATIANS 3:6 . . . Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. (NKJV)

As the passage above (as well as the fourth and ninth chapters of Romans) shows, Gentile believers become "sons of Abraham" through faith in Christ. This faith allows Gentiles to no longer be "strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God" (Eph. 2:19). For centuries the Jews had received the benefits of being God's chosen people by virtue of being Abraham's physical descendants. But after the sacrifice of Christ, this place of honor and blessing would be given to the people represented by Lazarus. This is the meaning of being "carried to the bosom of Abraham" in this parable.

In contrast to Lazarus, the rich man was buried in Hades. An understanding of the original meaning of the Greek word hades is necessary to grasp the message of the parable. Regarding the possible etymology of this word, the The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states that hades ". . . comes from idein (to see) with the negative prefix, a-, and so would mean the invisible . . . In the LXX hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb. she'ol, the underworld which receives all the dead. It is the land of darkness . . ." (vol. 2, p. 206).

I could post sites to examine; you wouldn't even look at them. You aren't looking for truth because you're sure you have it. The Lazarus parable is one of five Jesus told in a row. Read through them all again.

MATTHEW 13:1 On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. 2 And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. 3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables . . . 10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 for the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.'" (NKJV)

I understand what you are saying. I have heard this argument from Laodicea before. If you want to believe that I can't stop you, but I disagree with it.

It is also hard to respond to a wall of text. In general, you will get a better response if you keep your posts short.
 
Oct 13, 2012
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#78
Shiloah, can you think of one more "parable" Jesus told that includes a personal name?
ALTER2EGO -to- DANSCHANCE:
It does not matter that personal names were used. The fact remains the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable aka illustration. The context makes that clear. Jesus always used things (including people) that his listeners could relate during his teachings. And the Bible says he always taught by means of illustrations.



"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;" (Matthew 13:34)


I will be more than happy to direct your attention to the context of "the Rich Man and Lazarus" Biblical account. If you pay attention to the context, you will then be able to allow yourself to be corrected by God's word, the Judeo-Christian Bible.


 
D

danschance

Guest
#79
ALTER2EGO -to- DANSCHANCE:
It does not matter that personal names were used. The fact remains the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable aka illustration. The context makes that clear. Jesus always used things (including people) that his listeners could relate during his teachings. And the Bible says he always taught by means of illustrations.



"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;" (Matthew 13:34)


I will be more than happy to direct your attention to the context of "the Rich Man and Lazarus" Biblical account. If you pay attention to the context, you will then be able to allow yourself to be corrected by God's word, the Judeo-Christian Bible.


Even if it is a parable, it is still about two men who were conscious after death. One went to a place of torment and the other to a place of rest. Even if it is a parable it is still teaching something you do not believe.
 
B

Bluecomet

Guest
#80
You said you don't believe Jesus died and went to Hell. Well He did. He was there for three days preaching the Gospel to the ones that were in Hell. If they excepted Him as there Lord and Savior, He brought them out.