IS MARY THE WOMAN IN REVELATION CHAPTER 12?

[Ahwatukee]

If she is not the woman there then who?

And how will you explain the child bore, the suns, moon and stars with the verses of the Bible?

Good day Jameen,

You've heard the term "scripture interprets scripture?" Well, God gives us the answer to who the woman of Rev.12 is by the use of the symbols of the sun, moon and twelve stars. By comparing the symbols of Rev.12:1 with Gen.37:9-10, we are then allowing scripture to interpret scripture:

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

After Joseph tells his dream, Jacob then identifies who the sun, moon and eleven stars represent, as revealed below:

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife/wives

Eleven Stars = Eleven of Jacobs son's with Joseph being number twelve

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is symbolic representing the nation Israel as a whole. It is the remnant of Israel who will flee out into the wilderness and will be cared for by God during that last 3 1/2 years.

Unbelieving Israel gives birth a Male Child, which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will come out Israel (gives birth to) who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. These are those who will have been sealed in Rev.7:1-8 and are seen again in Rev.14:1-5 after they have been caught up and changed into their immortal and glorified bodies.

Just fyi, Jesus does not fit the criteria of the Male Child, as the Male child will be caught up to God and His throne out of the reach of Satan, where Jesus was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended.

 

[Shamah]

I think you misunderstood me. Im saying that the woman is the mother of those who are born again. She was barren, there was no second births until Christ came. Now the barren has more children than her that hath a husband (Galatians 4:27).

OK yeah I definitly misunderstood you. Thank you for clearing that up.

Psalm 141:7-8, Our bones are scattered at the mouth of the grave, As when one plows and breaks up the earth. But my eyes are upon You, O Master יהוה. In You I take refuge; Do not pour out my life.

 

[KJV1611]

Good day Jameen,

You've heard the term "scripture interprets scripture?" Well, God gives us the answer to who the woman of Rev.12 is by the use of the symbols of the sun, moon and twelve stars. By comparing the symbols of Rev.12:1 with Gen.37:9-10, we are then allowing scripture to interpret scripture:

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

After Joseph tells his dream, Jacob then identifies who the sun, moon and eleven stars represent, as revealed below:

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife/wives

Eleven Stars = Eleven of Jacobs son's with Joseph being number twelve

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is symbolic representing the nation Israel as a whole. It is the remnant of Israel who will flee out into the wilderness and will be cared for by God during that last 3 1/2 years.

Unbelieving Israel gives birth a Male Child, which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will come out Israel (gives birth to) who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. These are those who will have been sealed in Rev.7:1-8 and are seen again in Rev.14:1-5 after they have been caught up and changed into their immortal and glorified bodies.

Just fyi, Jesus does not fit the criteria of the Male Child, as the Male child will be caught up to God and His throne out of the reach of Satan, where Jesus was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended.

If the woman is Israel and she is clothed with the sun which you say is Israel also, how is the woman Israel clothed with Israel... what does that mean?

In contrast, Christ is The Sun of Righteousness (Malachi 4:2) and all believers are clothed in His righteousness.

 

[Jackson123]

If she is not the woman there then who?

And how will you explain the child bore, the suns, moon and stars with the verses of the Bible?

Revelation 12 King James Version (KJV)

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 when this story happen. Is this happen in the past, when Jesus born or Will happen in the future in the end time, or the story from the first coming to the end time.

2. Seem to me verse 1 indicate Israel, because 12 star represent 12 tribe of Israel. Mary do not had 12 star.

3. Verse 2 say she is in pain and pregnant. Israel was pregnant, because Jesus is born from Israel and in the history Israel experience a Lot of problem.

Verse 4 to 6

I believe this is what happen 2000 years ago and in the second part of ttribulation

Jesus was born, and the dragon or satan make war again Jesus, satan kill Jesus oN the cross and the child was cought up to God, mean Jesus risen from the dead and go to heaven in the throne of His Father.

Verse 13

This happen after verse 6. After Jesus risen from the death, satan persecute woman. I believe this women is spiritual Israel or Christian

Let say the woman mean Mary.

Was Mary go to jail, or stoned like apostle, after Jesus die oN the cross and back to the father in heaven? No

So the woman not Mary.


Verse 6

I believe verse 6 is the second part of tribulation, Mary not around anymore in this time, so woman is not Mary. It is spritual Israel or Christian.

 

[garee]

I don't buy into a replacement theology if thats what you are saying, there are too many prophecies about Israyl being reconciled to YHWH. Also this would go against a ton of doctrine, including being "grafted in" and Num 15:15-16, Exodus 12:47-48, Isaiah 56:1-7, Acts 10:34-36 and many more... There is only One Shepherd and one body of believers...

Acts 15:14-18,14 “Shim‛on has declared how Elohim first visited the nations to take out of them a people for His Name."15 “And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it has been written:"16 ‘After this I shall return and rebuild the Booth of Dawiḏ which has fallen down. And I shall rebuild its ruins, and I shall set it up,"17 so that the remnant of mankind shall seek יהוה, even all the nations on whom My Name has been called, says יהוה who is doing all this,’"18 who has made this known from of old.”

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying...

Its not about replacement theology but is about new creatures , neither male no female, Jew or Gentile ...Newly created or born again theology.

The Son of man Jesus said of his own flesh it profits for zero. the one time demonstration is over the veil is rent .Never again do we look for another fleshly demonstration.(2 Corinthians 5:16)

It has nothing to do with the corrupted flesh of nations .God is no respecter of people. She represents the bride of Christ in respect to the spiritual seed Christ by which all men are born again as the new Jerusalem the "mother of us all". She is made up of all the nations of the word .Having the time keepers Sun and moon) under her feet meaning time has come to an end.

 

[garee]

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

After Joseph tells his dream, Jacob then identifies who the sun, moon and eleven stars represent, as revealed below:

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

The answer was no they will not literaly bow down to Josef's corrupted flesh used as one of the many to represent the one spiritual unseen seed, "Christ"

Bowing down is the same as under the feet of His bride the church .The twelve star represent all the born again children of God. Twelve speaks of the authority of God in parables throughout the scriptures.It as under the feet simply means longer subject to time elements . A picture of the bride in the new heavens and earth

But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). Revelation21:22-25

 

[jameen]

Good day Jameen,

You've heard the term "scripture interprets scripture?" Well, God gives us the answer to who the woman of Rev.12 is by the use of the symbols of the sun, moon and twelve stars. By comparing the symbols of Rev.12:1 with Gen.37:9-10, we are then allowing scripture to interpret scripture:

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

After Joseph tells his dream, Jacob then identifies who the sun, moon and eleven stars represent, as revealed below:

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife/wives

Eleven Stars = Eleven of Jacobs son's with Joseph being number twelve

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is symbolic representing the nation Israel as a whole. It is the remnant of Israel who will flee out into the wilderness and will be cared for by God during that last 3 1/2 years.

Unbelieving Israel gives birth a Male Child, which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will come out Israel (gives birth to) who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. These are those who will have been sealed in Rev.7:1-8 and are seen again in Rev.14:1-5 after they have been caught up and changed into their immortal and glorified bodies.

Just fyi, Jesus does not fit the criteria of the Male Child, as the Male child will be caught up to God and His throne out of the reach of Satan, where Jesus was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended.

I believe Jesus is not the man child in Revelation 12:5. it believe it symbolizes the Christian Church.

Galatians 4:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe Jesus is not the man child in Revelation 12:5. it believe it symbolizes the Christian Church.

Galatians 4:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Hello again Jameen! The man child is not the church and for a couple of reasons:

1). Since the "Woman" has been identified in Gen.37:9-10 as representing the nation Israel, the church cannot be the male child whom she gives birth to. However, the 144,000 are those who come out of Israel and are sealed.

2). The Male Child is caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years when Satan and his angels are cast to the earth. Therefore, if the Male Child was symbolically representing the church, it would put the living church through the majority of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer and which Jesus says He will keep believers out of.

3). The last time the church is mentioned is at the very end of chapter 3. The church is never mentioned throughout the narrative of God's wrath, which spans from chapter 6 through 18 of Revelation.

4). Rev.4:1-2 is a prophet allusion to the church being caught up, with John representing that event.

If you can find me anywhere where the word church is used after chapter 3 and before Revelation 22:16, then I will believe you.

 

[garee]

Hello again Jameen! The man child is not the church and for a couple of reasons:

It is the husband of the church for one reason. It is Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God by which all new creatures have been born again through

As new creatures we are not today what we will be when on the last day we do receive the end of the promise... our new incorruptible bodies. No longer male or female Jew nor Gentile but a new creation.

The man child is the spiritual seed . The same seed that Jameen offered in respect to the surrogate mother, the bride of Christ. The heavenly city of New Jerusalem.

Galatians 4:19 King James Version (KJV)19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

The same spiritual seed (one) found in Genesis 3 not pertaining to the fleshly seeds, that the eyes see . The seed that crushes the head of the god of this world.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.Genesis 3:15

Paul again acting as the surrogate mother is shown preparing Timothy as a chaste virgin bride for her husband Christ .

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

 

[Jackson123]

Hello again Jameen! The man child is not the church and for a couple of reasons:

1). Since the "Woman" has been identified in Gen.37:9-10 as representing the nation Israel, the church cannot be the male child whom she gives birth to. However, the 144,000 are those who come out of Israel and are sealed.

2). The Male Child is caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years when Satan and his angels are cast to the earth. Therefore, if the Male Child was symbolically representing the church, it would put the living church through the majority of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer and which Jesus says He will keep believers out of.

3). The last time the church is mentioned is at the very end of chapter 3. The church is never mentioned throughout the narrative of God's wrath, which spans from chapter 6 through 18 of Revelation.

4). Rev.4:1-2 is a prophet allusion to the church being caught up, with John representing that event.

If you can find me anywhere where the word church is used after chapter 3 and before Revelation 22:16, then I will believe you.

Hello brother ahwatuke, from verse 5 seem to indicate that man child is Jesus
Rev 12
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Man child who was to rule all nation.

Mean King of King

Mean Jesus

 

[KJV1611]

I believe Jesus is not the man child in Revelation 12:5. it believe it symbolizes the Christian Church.

Galatians 4:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Why do you believe a manchild which is singular would be the church which is multiple people and also includes women?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello brother ahwatuke, from verse 5 seem to indicate that man child is Jesus
Rev 12
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Man child who was to rule all nation.

Mean King of King

Mean Jesus

Hey Jackson123,

There are three mentioned in scripture who it is said "will rule the nations with iron scepter:

The church
"And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery — just as I have received authority from My Father. " - Rev.2:26-28

The Male Child
"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." - Rev.12:5

Jesus
"And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter." - Rev.19:15

Just like with every Biblical topic, all related scriptures must be taken into consideration in order to come to a right conclusion. That being said, I have already demonstrated that Jesus does not fit the criteria as being the male child. Regarding this, I would remind you that in Rev.4:1-2 when Jesus said "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this, i.e. after the "what is now" which is the church period. Also, someone said that the male child is the church who is being caught up to God, to which I said that it is not possible because the male child is caught up in the middle of the seven years which would put the living church through the majority of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

The only reason that people interpret the Male Child as being Jesus, is because the woman is Israel and she's giving birth to a male child. The reference to "giving birth" is a metaphor referring to those 144,000 Israelites who believe in Jesus as their Messiah coming out of unbelieving Israel, ergo, gives birth to.

The other thing is that, the woman giving birth, the male child being caught up to God, the dragon pursuing the woman and the war in heaven where the dragon/Satan and his angels are cast out, are all literal future events.

To claim Jesus or the church as being the male child, would be to ignore the other scriptures that oppose this. When I teach the Male child as being a collective name for the 144,000, they can't receive it because they adhere to what they have already been taught and are unwilling to consider it and so they just continue to resist this teaching. An example of this type of thinking, is regarding the 200 million mounted troops of the 6th trumpet where they kill a third of mankind. Somewhere, some teacher passively interpreted the 200 million as being the kings of the east. However, when one examines both scriptures, there is nothing in the context that would identify them as representing the 200 million. The only thing that the two scriptures have in common is the Euphrates River. The four angels who are bound at the Euphrates and the Euphrates being dried up, which does not constitute the 200 million as being the kings of the east and their armies. It's shoddy exegesis at best.

 

[Jackson123]

Hey Jackson123,

There are three mentioned in scripture who it is said "will rule the nations with iron scepter:

The church
"And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery — just as I have received authority from My Father. " - Rev.2:26-28

The Male Child
"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." - Rev.12:5

Jesus
"And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter." - Rev.19:15

Just like with every Biblical topic, all related scriptures must be taken into consideration in order to come to a right conclusion. That being said, I have already demonstrated that Jesus does not fit the criteria as being the male child. Regarding this, I would remind you that in Rev.4:1-2 when Jesus said "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this, i.e. after the "what is now" which is the church period. Also, someone said that the male child is the church who is being caught up to God, to which I said that it is not possible because the male child is caught up in the middle of the seven years which would put the living church through the majority of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

The only reason that people interpret the Male Child as being Jesus, is because the woman is Israel and she's giving birth to a male child. The reference to "giving birth" is a metaphor referring to those 144,000 Israelites who believe in Jesus as their Messiah coming out of unbelieving Israel, ergo, gives birth to.

The other thing is that, the woman giving birth, the male child being caught up to God, the dragon pursuing the woman and the war in heaven where the dragon/Satan and his angels are cast out, are all literal future events.

To claim Jesus or the church as being the male child, would be to ignore the other scriptures that oppose this. When I teach the Male child as being a collective name for the 144,000, they can't receive it because they adhere to what they have already been taught and are unwilling to consider it and so they just continue to resist this teaching. An example of this type of thinking, is regarding the 200 million mounted troops of the 6th trumpet where they kill a third of mankind. Somewhere, some teacher passively interpreted the 200 million as being the kings of the east. However, when one examines both scriptures, there is nothing in the context that would identify them as representing the 200 million. The only thing that the two scriptures have in common is the Euphrates River. The four angels who are bound at the Euphrates and the Euphrates being dried up, which does not constitute the 200 million as being the kings of the east and their armies. It's shoddy exegesis at best.

Brother ahwatukee

I have question.

1. When the man child rule with rod of iron, in the past or future?

2. To my knowledge Jesus is groom, the church is bride

Who ever believe in Jesus is part of the church, so 144000 Israel that believe in Jesus is bride.

Rev 12:5 say man child. If a church or 144000 Israel that believe in Jesus consider bride, why man child, not woman child.?

 

[Jackson123]

Hey Jackson123,

There are three mentioned in scripture who it is said "will rule the nations with iron scepter:

The church
"And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery — just as I have received authority from My Father. " - Rev.2:26-28

The Male Child
"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." - Rev.12:5

Jesus
"And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter." - Rev.19:15

Just like with every Biblical topic, all related scriptures must be taken into consideration in order to come to a right conclusion. That being said, I have already demonstrated that Jesus does not fit the criteria as being the male child. Regarding this, I would remind you that in Rev.4:1-2 when Jesus said "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this, i.e. after the "what is now" which is the church period. Also, someone said that the male child is the church who is being caught up to God, to which I said that it is not possible because the male child is caught up in the middle of the seven years which would put the living church through the majority of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

The only reason that people interpret the Male Child as being Jesus, is because the woman is Israel and she's giving birth to a male child. The reference to "giving birth" is a metaphor referring to those 144,000 Israelites who believe in Jesus as their Messiah coming out of unbelieving Israel, ergo, gives birth to.

The other thing is that, the woman giving birth, the male child being caught up to God, the dragon pursuing the woman and the war in heaven where the dragon/Satan and his angels are cast out, are all literal future events.

To claim Jesus or the church as being the male child, would be to ignore the other scriptures that oppose this. When I teach the Male child as being a collective name for the 144,000, they can't receive it because they adhere to what they have already been taught and are unwilling to consider it and so they just continue to resist this teaching. An example of this type of thinking, is regarding the 200 million mounted troops of the 6th trumpet where they kill a third of mankind. Somewhere, some teacher passively interpreted the 200 million as being the kings of the east. However, when one examines both scriptures, there is nothing in the context that would identify them as representing the 200 million. The only thing that the two scriptures have in common is the Euphrates River. The four angels who are bound at the Euphrates and the Euphrates being dried up, which does not constitute the 200 million as being the kings of the east and their armies. It's shoddy exegesis at best.

Brother ahwatukee, you quote rev 2

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

And he that ....................unto the end

What is the end in this verse mean? After second coming or after 1000 year ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Brother ahwatukee

I have question.

1. When the man child rule with rod of iron, in the past or future?

2. To my knowledge Jesus is groom, the church is bride

Who ever believe in Jesus is part of the church, so 144000 Israel that believe in Jesus is bride.

Rev 12:5 say man child. If a church or 144000 Israel that believe in Jesus consider bride, why man child, not woman child.?

1. When did Jesus rule with an Iron rod? When have the nations bowed to his authority?
2. True
3. The 144000 are said to be jewish believers, Not gentile believers. So while yes they are part of the church. That is not the context. The context is 144000 people of th echildren of Israel are saved and sent out as missionaries
4. The man child is Christ, why would he be called a woman?

 

[Jackson123]

1. When did Jesus rule with an Iron rod? When have the nations bowed to his authority?
2. True
3. The 144000 are said to be jewish believers, Not gentile believers. So while yes they are part of the church. That is not the context. The context is 144000 people of th echildren of Israel are saved and sent out as missionaries
4. The man child is Christ, why would he be called a woman?

1 I believe It happen in the 1000 year when Jesus rule in the earth. After that only one nation, not nations plural.

2. Question No 3. Brother ahwatukee believe rev 12;5 a man child is the 144000 jews that believe in Jesus, If that true, why that verse say man child. They are part of the church, and church is bride/woman not man child.

Yes 144000 is children of Israel that believe in Jesus, my question is: is rev 12:5 (the man child) mean the 144000 jews that believe in Jesus? If so why man, not woman?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 I believe It happen in the 1000 year when Jesus rule in the earth. After that only one nation, not nations plural.

The bible says when Jesus rules. Nations will come worship him in jerusalem, And the nations will know he is God.. He rules the world. Not just Israel.

2. Question No 3. Brother ahwatukee believe rev 12;5 a man child is the 144000 jews that believe in Jesus, If that true, why that verse say man child. They are part of the church, and church is bride/woman not man child.

If he believes this this is wrong. The Man is not the 144000

Yes 144000 is children of Israel that believe in Jesus, my question is: is rev 12:5 (the man child) mean the 144000 jews that believe in Jesus? If so why man, not woman?

I see. I am sorry, I misunderstood.

 

[Jackson123]

The bible says when Jesus rules. Nations will come worship him in jerusalem, And the nations will know he is God.. He rules the world. Not just Israel.


If he believes this this is wrong. The Man is not the 144000

I see. I am sorry, I misunderstood.

Yes, when Jesus rule 1000 year in jerusalem, He rules all nations, than big war and new Jerusalem or heaven

 

[KJV1611]

Hey Jackson123,

There are three mentioned in scripture who it is said "will rule the nations with iron scepter:

The church
"And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery — just as I have received authority from My Father. " - Rev.2:26-28

The Male Child
"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." - Rev.12:5

Jesus
"And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter." - Rev.19:15

Just like with every Biblical topic, all related scriptures must be taken into consideration in order to come to a right conclusion. That being said, I have already demonstrated that Jesus does not fit the criteria as being the male child. Regarding this, I would remind you that in Rev.4:1-2 when Jesus said "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this, i.e. after the "what is now" which is the church period. Also, someone said that the male child is the church who is being caught up to God, to which I said that it is not possible because the male child is caught up in the middle of the seven years which would put the living church through the majority of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

The only reason that people interpret the Male Child as being Jesus, is because the woman is Israel and she's giving birth to a male child. The reference to "giving birth" is a metaphor referring to those 144,000 Israelites who believe in Jesus as their Messiah coming out of unbelieving Israel, ergo, gives birth to.

The other thing is that, the woman giving birth, the male child being caught up to God, the dragon pursuing the woman and the war in heaven where the dragon/Satan and his angels are cast out, are all literal future events.

To claim Jesus or the church as being the male child, would be to ignore the other scriptures that oppose this. When I teach the Male child as being a collective name for the 144,000, they can't receive it because they adhere to what they have already been taught and are unwilling to consider it and so they just continue to resist this teaching. An example of this type of thinking, is regarding the 200 million mounted troops of the 6th trumpet where they kill a third of mankind. Somewhere, some teacher passively interpreted the 200 million as being the kings of the east. However, when one examines both scriptures, there is nothing in the context that would identify them as representing the 200 million. The only thing that the two scriptures have in common is the Euphrates River. The four angels who are bound at the Euphrates and the Euphrates being dried up, which does not constitute the 200 million as being the kings of the east and their armies. It's shoddy exegesis at best.

Ahwatukee you missed one occurence of "rod of iron" and it's the most important one because it's the one that all of the other new testament scriptures are quoting or referencing.

Psalm 2:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The church nor the 144,000 will break anything with a rod of iron nor rule anything with a rod of iron, they are broken with a rod of iron by Jesus Christ who rules with a rod of iron.

 

[Lynnnnn]

In view of Old Testament imagery (cf. Isa. 54:1-6; Jer. 3:20; Ezek. 16:8- 14; Hos. 2:19-20) and the following reasons, the "woman" seems to symbolize the nation of Israel.557 Her identification as God's people throughout all of the ages, therefore, seems incorrect.558 She wears a "crown (Gr. stephanos) [with] twelve stars," and is clothed with the "sun," "moon," and "stars," as God pictured Israel in one of the nation's early symbolic representations (Gen. 37:9-11; cf. Isa. 26:17-18; 60:1-3, 20).
There are many figurative references to Israel as a "travailing" woman (pregnant and in labor) in the Old Testament (Is. 26:17-18; 66:7-9; Jer. 4:31; 13:21; Mic. 4:10; 5:3). She (Israel) eventually gave birth to Christ (v. 5). In Genesis 37:9-10, the "sun" corresponds to Jacob, the "moon" to Rachel, and the "12 stars" to Israel's 12 sons (cf. 7:5-8; 21:12).
In John's vision, the woman was about "to give birth," and "cried out . . . in labor [pains]." Evidently this represents Israel's national spiritual pain before Jesus Christ's appearing at His first coming.