Is Open Theism Heresy?
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A preacher/minister emailed me the following about God’s foreknowledge the other day. Here is some of it:
“Since the Son and Holy Spirit are equally God (John 1:1; 5:23; 14:9; Colossians 2:9), it would seem all of them have the ability to both know and choose not to know.
2. How can God be all knowing if He chooses not to know something? Maybe in the same way that God is all-powerful, but does not always use His power at full force, i.e. work a miracle.
3. For me a problem of saying that God MUST know everything or every detail in the advance, is limiting His power, as if God is not powerful enough to select what to know and what to not know, and have none of that effect how He governs the world.
4. Consider the example of Abraham, when God told him to offer up his son, when Abraham proceeds to follow through, God says, “Now I know that you fear God” (Genesis 22:12). Could God have known that before---yes. But I am impressed that when God runs a test, He runs a true and authentic test, a real life version. I don’t think we would want to live in a universe where we were condemned for sins that we would have committed in the future, if we have lived longer.
1. Some event in the future are fixed, i.e., Jesus is coming again, there will be a final judgment, and only two final destinations.
2. Yet in many other areas the future is flexible and open. We all have more than one possible future, depending on each and every decision. Moses told Israel this in Deut. 28-29. They could be the head or the tail. The blessings or the curses. They had more than one possible future, depending on their choices. Jeremiah 18 presents the same truth and so does Ezekiel 18, for both nations and individuals. Consider the example of Ninevah and the preaching of Jonah, God said Ninevah was going to be destroyed, they repented, and the destruction was averted—the future was changed. Thus, the future of nations and individuals is not written in stone. In a very real sense, by our daily choices, we are creating to some extent the future that shows up for us. The great news in the gospel is that you don’t have to remain as you are, and you can change your future for the better. When you become a Christian, all of a sudden many of the sins that would have happened if you stayed on the broad way---never happen.
God can know the past, present, and future, but why does it have to be that He looks at everyone’s future fate to already decide afore time when they are born?
1. I don’t believe God does this. I don’t find Jesus telling people that their future fate was already predetermined. Rather, I find the language of choice and freewill, that we play a role in selecting that fate (Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter”; 11:28-30 “Come unto me”; John 3:16 “Whoever”).
God certainly has the power to look ahead, and see all the options, changes, human interactions, ups and downs, conversations, etc…in the life of an individual. But looking ahead and seeing such---does not determine the outcome.
2. Knowing the future and determining the future are not the same thing.
3. If you and I were overlooking a highway from a great vantage point, we probably could anticipate an accident as we watched the behavior of two drivers, but anticipating it, seeing what was going to happen, will not cause the accident. God can see the direction we are taking, God can see where our heart is focused, God can see the opportunities were are seizing or ignoring, but none of this means that He is making the choice for us.
4. Added to the above, God has placed all around us: 1. An abundance of evidence for His existence (Psalm 19:1; Romans 1:20). 2. The gospel message. 3. The solution--Jesus died for everyone. 4. Godly people who are encouraging us to change. 5. All the examples of where unbelief does not end well. 6. The great examples of believers.”
[End of part of the email]
“Since the Son and Holy Spirit are equally God (John 1:1; 5:23; 14:9; Colossians 2:9), it would seem all of them have the ability to both know and choose not to know.
2. How can God be all knowing if He chooses not to know something? Maybe in the same way that God is all-powerful, but does not always use His power at full force, i.e. work a miracle.
3. For me a problem of saying that God MUST know everything or every detail in the advance, is limiting His power, as if God is not powerful enough to select what to know and what to not know, and have none of that effect how He governs the world.
4. Consider the example of Abraham, when God told him to offer up his son, when Abraham proceeds to follow through, God says, “Now I know that you fear God” (Genesis 22:12). Could God have known that before---yes. But I am impressed that when God runs a test, He runs a true and authentic test, a real life version. I don’t think we would want to live in a universe where we were condemned for sins that we would have committed in the future, if we have lived longer.
1. Some event in the future are fixed, i.e., Jesus is coming again, there will be a final judgment, and only two final destinations.
2. Yet in many other areas the future is flexible and open. We all have more than one possible future, depending on each and every decision. Moses told Israel this in Deut. 28-29. They could be the head or the tail. The blessings or the curses. They had more than one possible future, depending on their choices. Jeremiah 18 presents the same truth and so does Ezekiel 18, for both nations and individuals. Consider the example of Ninevah and the preaching of Jonah, God said Ninevah was going to be destroyed, they repented, and the destruction was averted—the future was changed. Thus, the future of nations and individuals is not written in stone. In a very real sense, by our daily choices, we are creating to some extent the future that shows up for us. The great news in the gospel is that you don’t have to remain as you are, and you can change your future for the better. When you become a Christian, all of a sudden many of the sins that would have happened if you stayed on the broad way---never happen.
God can know the past, present, and future, but why does it have to be that He looks at everyone’s future fate to already decide afore time when they are born?
1. I don’t believe God does this. I don’t find Jesus telling people that their future fate was already predetermined. Rather, I find the language of choice and freewill, that we play a role in selecting that fate (Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter”; 11:28-30 “Come unto me”; John 3:16 “Whoever”).
God certainly has the power to look ahead, and see all the options, changes, human interactions, ups and downs, conversations, etc…in the life of an individual. But looking ahead and seeing such---does not determine the outcome.
2. Knowing the future and determining the future are not the same thing.
3. If you and I were overlooking a highway from a great vantage point, we probably could anticipate an accident as we watched the behavior of two drivers, but anticipating it, seeing what was going to happen, will not cause the accident. God can see the direction we are taking, God can see where our heart is focused, God can see the opportunities were are seizing or ignoring, but none of this means that He is making the choice for us.
4. Added to the above, God has placed all around us: 1. An abundance of evidence for His existence (Psalm 19:1; Romans 1:20). 2. The gospel message. 3. The solution--Jesus died for everyone. 4. Godly people who are encouraging us to change. 5. All the examples of where unbelief does not end well. 6. The great examples of believers.”
[End of part of the email]
Daniel 4:35~ All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’ Isaiah 14:24~ The LORD of Hosts has sworn: “Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand.” Psalm 139:16~ Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Proverbs 16:9~ In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps. Proverbs 19:21~ Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails.
I agree that omniscience is not causation, under the open theist definition of omniscience. However, if God's omniscience includes exhaustive knowledge of the entire future of the world God would choose to create rather that creating any other possible world, then that kind of omniscience does also logically entail an exhaustive divine predetermination regarding what would happen after creation began.
Scripture tells us Christ was slain from the foundation of the world - therefore before He created the world, He knew sinners would need a Savior. but we also know God is not the author of sin, despite your opinion that it is 'logically incoherent' for Him to know this before He made us.
i think, here is an example of what human thinking calls 'the foolishness of God' that is actually wiser than the wisdom of men.
knowledge is not causation in any sense, even though He gave us free will fully knowing what we would do with it. why else were there two trees in the garden?
i think, here is an example of what human thinking calls 'the foolishness of God' that is actually wiser than the wisdom of men.
knowledge is not causation in any sense, even though He gave us free will fully knowing what we would do with it. why else were there two trees in the garden?
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But if you had the power to make a child that you knew would not die or a child that you knew would die, and you chose to make the one that you knew would die, you both foreknew and predetermined that that child would die. The only reason your foreknowing of some events is not causal, is because you did not predetermine the actual causes of those events. However, if you planned to have a child for the express purpose of shedding its blood at age three, your foreknowledge would be causal in that case.
Under your theory, you are not analysing the causal power of the foreknowledge of someone who foreknows only some things they knew would happen but did not want to happen. You are analysing the power of the foreknowledge of someone who, you say, foreknew all events and initiated the advance of all those foreknown event intentionally, when they could have initiated some other sequence of events and not initiated this particular sequence. You cannot divorce causality from putting into action a sequence of events that was exhaustively foreknown before being initiated. Your analogy is not comparable to exhastive divine foreknowledge IMHO.
Under your theory, you are not analysing the causal power of the foreknowledge of someone who foreknows only some things they knew would happen but did not want to happen. You are analysing the power of the foreknowledge of someone who, you say, foreknew all events and initiated the advance of all those foreknown event intentionally, when they could have initiated some other sequence of events and not initiated this particular sequence. You cannot divorce causality from putting into action a sequence of events that was exhaustively foreknown before being initiated. Your analogy is not comparable to exhastive divine foreknowledge IMHO.
There is a point in time when God knew you as a son. "After ye are known of God..." Which, btw, destroys Calvinism.
Galatians 4:
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Galatians 4:
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
I agree and especially affirm the part about Jesus not telling people that their future fate was already predetermined, but rather implying freewill, that we play a role (Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter”; 11:28-30 “Come unto me”; John 3:16 “Whoever”).
Yes, "God's power to look ahead, and see all the options, changes, human interactions, ups and downs, conversations, etc…in the life of an individual" must not be understood as determining the outcome.
Yes, "God's power to look ahead, and see all the options, changes, human interactions, ups and downs, conversations, etc…in the life of an individual" must not be understood as determining the outcome.
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God is. The First Cause uncaused.
God knows all:
He knew before we were formed in our mother's womb
He Knows the hairs on our head
He knows the grains of sand
He knows the Stars
God sees all:
He sees our tears
“From heaven the Lord looks down and sees all mankind” Ps 33:13
“The eyes of the Lord are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good.” Prov 15:3
:For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him. " 2chron 16:9
God Hears All
God Speaks
God is all-powerful
God is Holy, And there is none like HIM. Nor any god besides him.
The very word of God testifies to the error of "Open Theisms. "
God knows all:
He knew before we were formed in our mother's womb
He Knows the hairs on our head
He knows the grains of sand
He knows the Stars
God sees all:
He sees our tears
“From heaven the Lord looks down and sees all mankind” Ps 33:13
“The eyes of the Lord are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good.” Prov 15:3
:For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him. " 2chron 16:9
God Hears All
God Speaks
God is all-powerful
God is Holy, And there is none like HIM. Nor any god besides him.
The very word of God testifies to the error of "Open Theisms. "
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Revelation 13:8 says foundation of the world, whereas three other verses say before the foundation of the world.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not
written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the
world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold
my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not
written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the
world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold
my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
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