Is Open Theism Heresy?

[posthuman]

​

Hebrews 9:27​

it is appointed unto men once to die​

​

not accidental.
appointed.

 

[PaulThomson]

no, it is the same. your argument is that if God knew beforehand angels or men would sin by being given free agency, yet created them anyway, then God authored sin - and is therefore evil.

It is not a premise of Open theism that God knew man would sin. According to Open theism God knew man, as designed, was capable of sin, but was also capable of remaining faithful and not sinning. Knowing the possibilities, God did prepare a rescue plan before launch and before discovering which choices man would make. So, you have not attacked on Open theism, but a straw man that Open Theism doesn't own.

therefore you suppose God is ignorant of His own handiwork and that Satan outwitted Him by fathering sin.

There is not supposing in Open Theism that God is ignorant of His own handiwork. God designed man with a degree of autonomy, and God was very aware of the possible paths man could take because of this deliberate design feature. Again you are attacking a straw man, not actual Open theism.

that is a general argument about knowledge being equivalent to causation, not specific to God alone - - but you contradict your own logic saying that any person who purposefully has a child, knowing it will die, is not guilty of its death. in that you are correct! but you wave your hands in the air saying, this is a totally different thing, though we are His children and He appointed to us all once to die.

At what stage in history does the Bible place God's decree that a man die once? It does not seem to say anywhere that this was ordained before creation. Can you identify this decree in scripture and when it was made?

nevertheless scripture clearly says Christ dies before creation - that His plan of salvation is from the beginning,

This is what Open Theism agrees with, as explained above. You are building an elaborate straw man of beliefs foreign to Open Theism and then attacking that straw man, while spuriously claiming you are demolishing Open Theism.

that He purposefully concludes all under sin in order that by faith in Christ He is glorified,

At what point in the cosmic timeline did "scripture lock up together all under sin"?

that life in Him is salvation by mercy, not by the will, effort, works or intention of man, that it be in Him and Him alone all glory resides.

"Life IN HIM" is not "salvation by mercy". Salvation by mercy is the doorway INTO "life IN HIM" .

the open theism worldview is contrary to scripture, claiming God reactively, on His heels against Satan's unexpected mortal blow, sent His Son.

Ho. That is not the claim of Open Theism, as I explained above.

Scripture is abundantly clear that the LORD from the foundation intended these things, but you say that makes Him evil if He did so, which is patently blasphemous.

No. Scripture does not make it abundantly clear that all history, both good and evil, was intended by God from the foundation of the world.

and why?
because you consider your human agency sacrosanct and inviolable, that even God cannot tell you what you should do, or number your days.

But I don't believe any of those things you are ascribing to me.

open theism is humanism. it is not historical Christianity, not the faith passed to us from our forebears.

No. It is not humanism.

Humanism:

1. a rationalist outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters.
   • a Renaissance cultural movement which turned away from medieval scholasticism and revived interest in ancient Greek and Roman thought.
     noun: Humanism
   • (among some contemporary writers) a system of thought criticized as being centred on the notion of the rational, autonomous self and ignoring the conditioned nature of the individual.
     
     
     

 

[PaulThomson]

have you not read,

Galatians 3:22​

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.​

​

will you judge God over this?
according to you - that is, according to open theism, if you really represent it - this makes God the author of sin. but not according to scripture.

have we answered the question of the thread topic then? is open theism heresy?
if it is indeed what you are arguing, then definitively, yes.

I have responded to you re Gal 3:22 in my previous post.

 

[John146]

... which is not plan B for God...

so when the scripture says these things were ordained before the beginning of the world, and that they find their expression in us through the Lamb slain 'from' the foundation, the clear scripture informs us of what may be unclear about the word 'from' - - Christ gave His life for us before He created the world. indicating He knew that with our free will, we would sin, that He knew also us and that He did not create haphazardly without knowing what it was He was creating.

He made us, purposefully and consciously; masterfully.

that knowledge of our failures before He created us is neither authorship of sin nor causation of sin.

Genesis 6:
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

 

[Believer08]

@PaulThomson, what is the difference (the pros and cons) between exhaustive foreknowledge and the kind of foreknowledge that open theists believe?

 

[CS1]

Sorry, but I have studied these things for fifty years and so I let what I have learned shine,
but should not have dumped the whole load at once.

Logic is reasoning ability that enables folks to understand GW.

Jesus said it is the Holy Spirit. In John chapter 14. Jesus did not use the word Logic: "Logic is the study of how to think and reason correctly, or the science of reasoning.


If your mind has not been changed by the word of God, your logic is carnal and, therefore, flawed.

 

[GWH]

Jesus said it is the Holy Spirit. In John chapter 14. Jesus did not use the word Logic: "Logic is the study of how to think and reason correctly, or the science of reasoning.


If your mind has not been changed by the word of God, your logic is carnal and, therefore, flawed.

Logic is also a form of Logos, the Word--GW.

 

[posthuman]

It is not a premise of Open theism that God knew man would sin. According to Open theism God knew man, as designed, was capable of sin, but was also capable of remaining faithful and not sinning. Knowing the possibilities, God did prepare a rescue plan before launch and bef

then open theism does not represent the Biblical worldview - which makes sense, since it is a new theology devised by modern humsnists, not the faith passed down to us from the apostles, who received it directly from God.

• Christians were chosen and predestined to be in Christ, not to maybe be in Christ just in case it was necessary, by mercy and grace, through the forgiveness of sin by faith in His shed blood ((Eph. 1:3-5))
• Christ is the propitiation for sin from before the creation ((1 Peter 1:18-20)) not afterwards because God was playing catchup to Satan's unexpected coup de etat.
• The promise of redemption from sin, not the backup-plan, is from before the beginning of time ((Titus 1:1-2))

the gospel is not that God has an emergency procedure in place if it turns out we happen to sin.
the gospel is the eternal plan set in place before He made the world because we absolutely will sin and will need His Salvation.

that it is possible man doesn't need redemption through Christ's shed blood?
a patently false gospel that has been universally condemned from the beginning as heresy, even by Christ Himself on earth, saying no one comes to the Father except through Me

 

[posthuman]

before discovering which choices man would make.

God is not at any time ignorant.

 

[posthuman]

Genesis 6:
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

His great compassion is thereby demonstrated to all living souls and in the sight of all the angels who witnessed sin in Satan before the creation of man.

 

[posthuman]

And God saw

observed, not 'learned'

see e.g. Genesis 1 - - He saw that it was good

 

[PaulThomson]

then open theism does not represent the Biblical worldview - which makes sense, since it is a new theology devised by modern humsnists, not the faith passed down to us from the apostles, who received it directly from God.

• Christians were chosen and predestined to be in Christ, not to maybe be in Christ just in case it was necessary, by mercy and grace, through the forgiveness of sin by faith in His shed blood ((Eph. 1:3-5))
• Christ is the propitiation for sin from before the creation ((1 Peter 1:18-20)) not afterwards because God was playing catchup to Satan's unexpected coup de etat.
• The promise of redemption from sin, not the backup-plan, is from before the beginning of time ((Titus 1:1-2))

the gospel is not that God has an emergency procedure in place if it turns out we happen to sin.
the gospel is the eternal plan set in place before He made the world because we absolutely will sin and will need His Salvation.

that it is possible man doesn't need redemption through Christ's shed blood?
a patently false gospel that has been universally condemned from the beginning as heresy, even by Christ Himself on earth, saying no one comes to the Father except through Me

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According-as he-chose us-in-him before-the-foundation-of-the-world, to-be holy-and-without-blame before-him in-love:
Eph 1:5 Having-predestinated-us unto-the-adoption-of-children by-Jesus-Christ to-himself, according-to-the-good-pleasure-of-his-will,


The way Greek grammar works, and the way words may be connected sometimes in several different grouping, and those groupings may be rearranged into several possible orders, we can interpret Eph. 1:4 as saying:

According-as before-the-foundation-of-the-world he-chose us-in-him (i.e. the church) to-be holy-and-without-blame before-Him in-love.
That is, God chose, before the foundation of the world, a bride for His Son, namely us, the church as a collective entity, who would holy and without blame before Him in love.

Paul does not say "According-as he-chose each-of-us-in-him (i.e. each member of the church) before-the-foundation-of-the-world, to-be holy-and-without-blame before-him in-love:" He does not use ekastos (each) in that verse.

Also, Eph. 1:5 says "
Having-predestinated-us unto-the-adoption-of-children by-Jesus-Christ to-himself, according-to-the-good-pleasure-of-his-will,

This can be reasonably interpreted as "God predestined us (the church: the collective entity of all those who have believed themselves into Christ) for a resurrection - by Jesus Christ to Himself - in glorified redeemed bodies... " since Paul identifies the adoption, not as the regeneration of our spirit, but as the redemption of our bodies, which we are still waiting for, whereas born again regeneration has already happened for us.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[PaulThomson]

then open theism does not represent the Biblical worldview - which makes sense, since it is a new theology devised by modern humsnists, not the faith passed down to us from the apostles, who received it directly from God.

• Christians were chosen and predestined to be in Christ, not to maybe be in Christ just in case it was necessary, by mercy and grace, through the forgiveness of sin by faith in His shed blood ((Eph. 1:3-5))
• Christ is the propitiation for sin from before the creation ((1 Peter 1:18-20)) not afterwards because God was playing catchup to Satan's unexpected coup de etat.
• The promise of redemption from sin, not the backup-plan, is from before the beginning of time ((Titus 1:1-2))

the gospel is not that God has an emergency procedure in place if it turns out we happen to sin.
the gospel is the eternal plan set in place before He made the world because we absolutely will sin and will need His Salvation.

that it is possible man doesn't need redemption through Christ's shed blood?
a patently false gospel that has been universally condemned from the beginning as heresy, even by Christ Himself on earth, saying no one comes to the Father except through Me

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

As I have already affirmed, inherent in the design that made love possible for us, was the potential for a rebellion. And thise potential was recognised before creation, and a fix was devised before beginning the project. So, Open Theists agree that the sacrifice of the Lamb was foreknown/anticipated (proegnOsmenou, προεγνωσμένου) as a possibility, before the foundation of the world. We affirm what 1 Peter 1:18-20 says.

 

[PaulThomson]

then open theism does not represent the Biblical worldview - which makes sense, since it is a new theology devised by modern humsnists, not the faith passed down to us from the apostles, who received it directly from God.

• Christians were chosen and predestined to be in Christ, not to maybe be in Christ just in case it was necessary, by mercy and grace, through the forgiveness of sin by faith in His shed blood ((Eph. 1:3-5))
• Christ is the propitiation for sin from before the creation ((1 Peter 1:18-20)) not afterwards because God was playing catchup to Satan's unexpected coup de etat.
• The promise of redemption from sin, not the backup-plan, is from before the beginning of time ((Titus 1:1-2))

the gospel is not that God has an emergency procedure in place if it turns out we happen to sin.
the gospel is the eternal plan set in place before He made the world because we absolutely will sin and will need His Salvation.

that it is possible man doesn't need redemption through Christ's shed blood?
a patently false gospel that has been universally condemned from the beginning as heresy, even by Christ Himself on earth, saying no one comes to the Father except through Me

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began (πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων, literally "before aeonous times);

This says that eternal life was promised before aeonous times. The promise to Eve that her seed would crush the serpent's head was given "before aeonous times". The Greek text does not actually say "before the world began." Open Theists affirm this statement by Paul to Titus.

 

[PaulThomson]

God is not at any time ignorant.

I understand what your theological presuppositions are. Your merely stating them with confidence does not make them biblical or correct.

 

[PaulThomson]

@PaulThomson, what is the difference (the pros and cons) between exhaustive foreknowledge and the kind of foreknowledge that open theists believe?

Exhaustive Divine Foreknowledge (EDF) means that God knows, and has never not known, every detail of the history of reality. from infinity past to infinity future. This is problematic, because it logically entails that all the evil that happens has always been in God's mind and there never was a time He was not free from contemplating all of these atrocities. It also entails that everything is eternal, beginningless and endless from God's perspective. If EDF were true, God has never been free to be in any way different from what He is, nor is He free to change any aspect of reality from the version that has always been ever present in His mind as EDF. It denies God the freedom of power to change the position of even one atom from the position it has always had in His mind as EDF. God cannot respond differently to His creation than the EDF version of reality, and try something new to adjust it for the better after His free creatures have done some particular damage to it, otherwise His EDF was wrong, which EDF denies is possible.

Open Theists believe God is free to change however He chooses to change, and is free to change creation in whatever ways He chooses to change it. We believe that knowledge of the future is not knowledge of the inevitable, but anticipation of possibilities and imagined plans to make such and such happen at a future time. God anticipates possibilities and probabilities better than any mere creature, but because of the nature of time and the degree of freedom He has granted to creatures, God's ability to predict everything with certainty decreases the further out the time frame, except in cases where He induces the behaviour, and sometimes forces behaviours to achieve His predicted outcomes. So, in Open Theism, God can predict some future events and use His omnipotence to make them happen. And sometimes He does, to prove His ability to keep His promises. But often God prophesies things that He does not do, because the subjects of the prophecies change their behaviour and escape the consequences God forewarned them of. Open Theist argue that the future as described in scripture is at least sometimes open, and God as described in scripture at least sometimes changes His mind and does not do what He had thought to do. Any openness in God's plans or responses to unfolding history, or any openness in future possibilities renders EDF impossible.

 

[Believer08]

Exhaustive Divine Foreknowledge (EDF) means that God knows, and has never not known, every detail of the history of reality. from infinity past to infinity future. This is problematic, because it logically entails that all the evil that happens has always been in God's mind and there never was a time He was not free from contemplating all of these atrocities. It also entails that everything is eternal, beginningless and endless from God's perspective. If EDF were true, God has never been free to be in any way different from what He is, nor is He free to change any aspect of reality from the version that has always been ever present in His mind as EDF. It denies God the freedom of power to change the position of even one atom from the position it has always had in His mind as EDF. God cannot respond differently to His creation than the EDF version of reality, and try something new to adjust it for the better after His free creatures have done some particular damage to it, otherwise His EDF was wrong, which EDF denies is possible.

Open Theists believe God is free to change however He chooses to change, and is free to change creation in whatever ways He chooses to change it. We believe that knowledge of the future is not knowledge of the inevitable, but anticipation of possibilities and imagined plans to make such and such happen at a future time. God anticipates possibilities and probabilities better than any mere creature, but because of the nature of time and the degree of freedom He has granted to creatures, God's ability to predict everything with certainty decreases the further out the time frame, except in cases where He induces the behaviour, and sometimes forces behaviours to achieve His predicted outcomes. So, in Open Theism, God can predict some future events and use His omnipotence to make them happen. And sometimes He does, to prove His ability to keep His promises. But often God prophesies things that He does not do, because the subjects of the prophecies change their behaviour and escape the consequences God forewarned them of. Open Theist argue that the future as described in scripture is at least sometimes open, and God as described in scripture at least sometimes changes His mind and does not do what He had thought to do. Any openness in God's plans or responses to unfolding history, or any openness in future possibilities renders EDF impossible.

Thanks for that information.

 

[GWH]

then open theism does not represent the Biblical worldview - which makes sense, since it is a new theology devised by modern humsnists, not the faith passed down to us from the apostles, who received it directly from God.

• Christians were chosen and predestined to be in Christ, not to maybe be in Christ just in case it was necessary, by mercy and grace, through the forgiveness of sin by faith in His shed blood ((Eph. 1:3-5))
• Christ is the propitiation for sin from before the creation ((1 Peter 1:18-20)) not afterwards because God was playing catchup to Satan's unexpected coup de etat.
• The promise of redemption from sin, not the backup-plan, is from before the beginning of time ((Titus 1:1-2))

the gospel is not that God has an emergency procedure in place if it turns out we happen to sin.
the gospel is the eternal plan set in place before He made the world because we absolutely will sin and will need His Salvation.

that it is possible man doesn't need redemption through Christ's shed blood?
a patently false gospel that has been universally condemned from the beginning as heresy, even by Christ Himself on earth, saying no one comes to the Father except through Me

My understanding of the doctrine of election in Ephesians 1:3-14 is as follows:

1:3, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

In the EPH passage we can see that Christ is the Chosen One (LK 23:35), and believers become chosen by becoming one with Christ. Also, what the all-loving God predestined was NOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for (1TM 2:3-5), if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ (2THS 2:10).

I also think Paul T. makes a good point that the meaning may be in a collective/church sense more than individual.

 

[Believer08]

My understanding of the doctrine of election in Ephesians 1:3-14 is as follows:

1:3, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

In the EPH passage we can see that Christ is the Chosen One (LK 23:35), and believers become chosen by becoming one with Christ. Also, what the all-loving God predestined was NOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for (1TM 2:3-5), if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ (2THS 2:10).

I also think Paul T. makes a good point that the meaning may be in a collective/church sense more than individual.

Amen…Jesus is indeed the Elect One (Isa. 42:1). My question to you is how do you get the plan of salvation to be what is predestined in Eph. 1:4-5?

 

[GWH]

Amen…Jesus is indeed the Elect One (Isa. 42:1). My question to you is how do you get the plan of salvation to be what is predestined in Eph. 1:4-5?

By interpreting it in light of RM 8:29, "Those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."