Is the “day of Christ” the day of the Rapture?

GRACE_ambassador · Jan 28, 2023

Appreciate that you have confidence, as, do we with our view:

So, The 'Day Of Light' Coming, Gathering/Judgment Event, when
Christ Gathers us To Himself, at the {second and last} Trump of God,
Closing The Dispensation Of Grace, "meeting The LORD In The Air"
(1Th 4:16-17) Mystery (Romans through Philemon),

is the Exact Same Event [study: Great GRACE Departure II] as...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

...[above] is the Exact Same Event as"?:

Prophecy 'Day Of Darkness' Coming, Gathering/Judgment Event (Daniel,
Matthew, and Revelation), about the prophesied 'Second Coming,' with
these choices?:

a) [as many think] at the "last trumpet of the seventh angel" (Rev 11:15)?

or

b1) at the "next [last?] trumpet"?:

"Mat_24:31 And He Shall Send His angels with a great

sound of a trumpet, and THEY shall gather together His

elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to

the other."

b2) for judgment on earth (Mat 25:31-32) [study: Great GRACE Departure I]?

Conclusion: my (and some others') Confidence in God's Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided Is That:

The Gathering (to Himself) of The Mystery 'Body Of Christ' for our judgement
in Heaven, is:

Not the SAME As, but is Vastly Different than the prophecy of:

"angels gathering His elect" of Israel, for judgment on the earth.

What do you say, precious friend? Scripturally Inconceivable?
-----------------------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

studentoftheword · Jan 28, 2023

Saul-to-Paul said:

Sorry again nice try ---but Again -----NO Cigar -------your Scripture here is talking about the Second coming of Christ -----not the Rapture -----which happens before the tribulation and His Second Coming ------

What does Revelation 1:7 mean? [⇑ See verse text ⇑]

In this verse John looks forward to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

It is important not to confuse the second coming with the rapture.

The rapture occurs when Jesus comes in the sky and catches up Christians from the earth to be with Him.

The rapture is a secret event, in the sense that only those who are saved will see Jesus.

On the other hand, the second coming is a public event. John declares that every eye will see Jesus at the second coming.

Also, the tribes of Israel will have undergone a national revival when Jesus comes again.

There is no mention of such a revival before the rapture.

John recalls what Zechariah had prophesied about Israel's revival when Jesus comes to earth again.

Zechariah 12:10 prophesies, "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."

Likely, John remembers what the angel told him and the other apostles when Jesus ascended into heaven.

The angel promised that Jesus would come again in the same way as He went into heaven. Then, Jesus ascended in a cloud from the Mount of Olives (Acts 1:11–12), and at His second coming He will return in the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4; Matthew 24:29–30).

John's joyful anticipation of Jesus' return to earth caused him to exclaim, "Even so. Amen" (Revelation 1:7).

We, too, should eagerly anticipate the second coming, because Jesus will reign over the earth, and we will reign with Him (2 Timothy 2:12).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jude 14-15 -----say in the Second coming -----Jesus comes with His Saints -to execute Judgment ------

I say
How can Jesus come with His saints if we are all here going through the Tribulation ------and are here on this earth -----

Only one answer ----He came and Raptured them before the tribulation -------as the second coming is after the tribulation-----if the Saints are here then there are no Saints in Heaven for Jesus to bring -----

Get This -------
the Lord comes with His myriads of holy ones (ten thousands of His saints)

Jude 14-15

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

14 It was of these people, moreover, that Enoch in the seventh [generation] from Adam prophesied when he said, Behold, the Lord comes with His myriads of holy ones (ten thousands of His saints)

15 To execute judgment upon all and to convict all the impious (unholy ones) of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed [in such an] ungodly [way], and of all the severe (abusive, jarring) things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

I say
it says -----Jesus comes with His Saints to what ????????----execute Judgment on the still remaining unbelievers who have gone through the Tribulation and never Received Jesus as the Saviour -------

This is where the sheep who were the unbelievers who came to received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour during the Tribulation who are now Saints are separated ------------from the unbelievers who did not receive Jesus as their Lord during the Tribulation and are judged ------

From Got questions
https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html

Jesus begins the parable by saying it concerns His return in glory to set up His kingdom (Matthew 25:31). Therefore, the setting of this event is at the beginning of the millennium, after the tribulation.

All those on earth at that time will be brought before the Lord, and He will separate them “as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left” (verses 32–33).

The sheep are those who were saved during the tribulation;

the goats are the unsaved who survived the tribulation.

I say
Matthew 24 is all about the end times -------and the Second coming of Christ -----and what happens to the people left after the tribulation ----and no where is the term Caught Up ---Raptured ----mentioned here -------

Verses
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d]

31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I say
it says His angels will gather the ELECT ------nothing about Jesus gathering His Elect and catching them up in the air with HIM at the end of the tribulation -------

Why because the Saints -------come with jesus ----------to exectute Judgment on the unsaved -after the Tribulation -------the angels gather the Saved people ------that is what scripture says ------

The Saints are already in Heaven with Jesus -------Saints can't come down with Jesus if they are on the earth after the Triubulation -----

also in Matthew 24 ---it says this ------

The Day and Hour Unknown
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

I say
So here is the thing -----and what makes sense ----is that the person left is the Saint and the person taken is the unbeliever who is to be judged -----and sent to hell

The new earth comes down from Heaven so all the saints remain here on the earth that is to be transformed into the new earth --------all the Saints come with Jesus upon His second Coming and all the Saints that are saved during the tribulation are here also and the New Earth comes down from Heaven with all people already here ------that is how I see that -------

If there is a Scripture that says -----anywhere that the Saints are caught up with Jesus in the air at His Second Coming --then let them please give it -------

Cause I see no where --where it says that Saints are caught up in the air to meet Jesus ---it definitely says the Saints COME WITH JESUS ----upon His Second Coming --------

Give me a Scripture -------caught up in the Air with Jesus at His Second Coming -----

GRACE_ambassador · Jan 28, 2023

Adstar said:

I apologize - previous post "with errors" reported for deletion...

@Adstar, appreciate that you have confidence, as, do we with our view:

So, The 'Day Of Light' Coming, Gathering/Judgment Event, when
Christ Gathers us To Himself, at the {second and last} Trump of God,
Closing The Dispensation Of Grace, "meeting The LORD In The Air"
(1Th 4:16-17) Mystery (Romans through Philemon),

is the Exact Same Event [study: Great GRACE Departure II] as...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

...[above] is the Exact Same Event as"?:

Prophecy 'Day Of Darkness' Coming, Gathering/Judgment Event (Daniel,
Matthew, and Revelation), about the prophesied 'Second Coming,' with
these choices?:

a) [as many think] at the "last trumpet of the seventh angel" (Rev 11:15)?

or

b1) at the "next [last?] trumpet"?:

"Mat_24:31 And He Shall Send His angels with a great

sound of a trumpet, and THEY shall gather together His

elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to

the other."

b2) for judgment on earth (Mat 25:31-32) [study: Great GRACE Departure I]?

Conclusion: my (and some others') Confidence in God's Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided Is That:

The Gathering (to Himself) of The Mystery 'Body Of Christ' for our
judgment in Heaven, is:

Not the SAME As, but is Vastly Different than, and should be Rightly
Divided From the prophecy of:

"angels gathering His elect" of Israel, for their judgment on the earth.

What do you say, precious friend? Scripturally Inconceivable?
-----------------------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)![/QUOTE]

GRACE_ambassador · Jan 28, 2023

Adstar said:

I apologize - previous posts "with errors" reported for deletion...
@Adstar, appreciate that you have confidence, as, do we with our view:

So, The 'Day Of Light' Coming, Gathering/Judgment Event, when
Christ Gathers us To Himself, at the {second and last} Trump of God,
Closing The Dispensation Of Grace, "meeting The LORD In The Air"
(1Th 4:16-17) Mystery (Romans through Philemon),

is the Exact Same Event [study: Great GRACE Departure II] as...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

...[above] is the Exact Same Event as"?:

Prophecy 'Day Of Darkness' Coming, Gathering/Judgment Event (Daniel,
Matthew, and Revelation), about the prophesied 'Second Coming,' with
these choices?:

a) [as many think] at the "last trumpet of the seventh angel" (Rev 11:15)?

or

b1) at the "next [last?] trumpet"?:

"Mat_24:31 And He Shall Send His angels with a great

sound of a trumpet, and THEY shall gather together His

elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to

the other."

b2) for judgment on earth (Mat 25:31-32) [study: Great GRACE Departure I]?

Conclusion: my (and some others') Confidence in God's Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided Is That:

The Gathering (to Himself) of The Mystery 'Body Of Christ' for our
judgment in Heaven, is:

Not the SAME As, but is Vastly Different than, and should be Rightly
Divided From, the prophecy of:

"angels gathering His elect" of Israel, for their judgment on the earth.

What do you say, precious friend? Scripturally Inconceivable?
-----------------------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

GaryA · Jan 28, 2023

Would you kindly STOP reposting like that...?!?!

They are not going to delete your post at your whim - just because you did not make sure the content of the post was correct before posting it the first time. They prefer to place the responsibility on you - and, allow your "errors" to remain for all the world to see...

So - it is up to you to make sure it is "good to go" before you submit it.

If you do wish to correct an error - quote only the part of the post where the error exists and make a statement of correction along with it in another post.

DO NOT repost-and-repost-and-repost the whole thing over-and-over-and-over again trying to "get it right" (So that the last copy is perfect?) - no one wants to repeatedly read through the same post to find whatever little "error" that may exist...

Be very specific to point out exactly where the error is and what the correction is.

If you do not get the post right the first time - that is your fault - don't place that burden on others!

Own up to your mistakes by admitting that they are due to your own insufficient patience and ability to "get it right" before you post it.

Before you say something stupid like "You are not a mod - so, don't tell me what to do." --- I do wish that you should feel right welcome to ask @RoboOp and @Oncefallen if this post doesn't in fact agree with them on how folks should handle "errors" in their posts - and, not repeatedly repost "the whole thing" over and over...

And, don't "report a post for deletion" due to a typo error or some such thing. Instead - take resposibility for your posts - and, "get it right" before you ever submit it the first time...

If you do make an error, and wish to make a correction - do so in a very concise and direct way - so that people know exactly what the error was - and the correction for it - without having to "figure it out" by reading the entire post again and searching for the error/correction.

Please properly understand the context of what I am saying here. There are times when it may be okay to repost something in its entirety; however, what I am speaking of here is strictly-and-specifically about making corrections to posts.

GaryA · Jan 28, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Herein lies the error...

Both 'logic' and 'faith' are necessary forms of reasoning that may be applied to the endeavor to obtain a proper understanding of scripture. However, they do not mix - each has its [own] 'realm' of operation - and, each must be applied as such - 'logic' to its realm and 'faith' to its realm. (There is one possible exception to this; however, I am not including it in the discussion of this post.)

Too many people try to "figure out" scripture by applying 'logic' to everything they read in scripture.

"That is their first mistake..."

When dealing with the 'spiritual' things in scripture, faith must be the form of reasoning used. When dealing with the 'physical' description, etc. of things in scripture, then logic may be used - inasmuch as those things are within the realm of 'logic'.

Nehemiah6 said:

I do not disagree.

Nehemiah6 said:

You do not understand the 'grammar of the language'. And, you left out the previous verse, which is vitally important in this case.

1 Corinthians 15:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The part I highlighted in the orange color "goes together" as a single-thought-action in regard to the 'event' being described; however, it has no [direct] defining effect whatsoever on what is after the colon (along with the word 'for') - because, the "thought context" has changed/shifted. The only thing upon which the highlighted portion of these verses has any direct 'definition' is the highlighted portion itself - it does not [directly] apply to anything else.

'we shall all be changed' is the 'event'
'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump' describes 'details' associated with the 'event'

Now, it is certainly associated with - and aligned with - the ending phrase of verse 52. As such, it applies to that ending phrase - but only that phrase. In other words, 'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye' applies only to 'and we shall be changed' - but, not to any other part of the verse after the colon.

In 'event' terms:

[for] the trumpet shall sound,
[and] the dead shall be raised incorruptable,
[and] we shall be changed.

Only the last one is associated with 'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye'.

Nehemiah6 said:

I believe that there are three 'sub-events' in the overall event:

1) the Resurrection - the raising of the dead saints ('raised incorruptable' does not necessarily include the "change")
2) the "change" - all of the saints receive their glorified body together - the raised dead and the still alive
3) the Rapture - the "catching up" of all of the saints

However, it is certainly nothing to split hairs over...

Nehemiah6 said:

It confirms:

1) Resurrection
2) Rapture

Be careful not to include things it does not actually say.

Nehemiah6 said:

No - the real issue is whether or not you are willing to temporarily 'suspend' all-that-you-think-you-know about the End Times Scenario and study the scriptures without "clinging to" the "assumed facts" foundation that you were taught to never-give-up-no-matter-what. (PRIDE is the 'concrete' that holds it in place.)

You and others do not even realize that you are wrapping scripture around a concept/idea that has been planted deep in your subconscience.

What you are thinking of as "clear proof" in this situation does not actually come "straight out" of scripture - it comes "straight out" of that deep-seated concept/idea - which you have been subconsciously taught to "protect" at-all-costs by wrapping whatever scripture around it that may be considered to be in support of it. I know this is hard for you to believe; however, you would do well to consider it - for your own sake, as well as that of others you may be inclined to teach.

VARob · Jan 28, 2023

GaryA said:

Herein lies the error...

Both 'logic' and 'faith' are necessary forms of reasoning that may be applied to the endeavor to obtain a proper understanding of scripture. However, they do not mix - each has its [own] 'realm' of operation - and, each must be applied as such - 'logic' to its realm and 'faith' to its realm.

Too many people try to "figure out" scripture by applying 'logic' to everything they read in scripture.

"That is their first mistake..."

When dealing with the 'spiritual' things in scripture, faith must be the form of reasoning used. When dealing with the 'physical' description, etc. of things in scripture, then logic may be used - inasmuch as those things are within the realm of 'logic'.

I do not disagree.

You do not understand the 'grammar of the language'. And, you left out the previous verse, which is vitally important in this case.

1 Corinthians 15:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The part I highlighted in the orange color "goes together" as a single-thought-action in regard to the 'event' being described; however, it has no [direct] defining effect whatsoever on what is after the colon (along with the word 'for') - because, the "thought context" has changed/shifted. The only thing upon which the highlighted portion of these verses has any direct 'definition' is the highlighted portion itself - it does not [directly] apply to anything else.

'we shall all be changed' is the 'event'
'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump' describes 'details' associated with the 'event'

Now, it is certainly associated with - and aligned with - the ending phrase of verse 52. As such, it applies to that ending phrase - but only that phrase. In other words, 'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye' applies only to 'and we shall be changed' - but, not to any other part of the verse after the colon.

In 'event' terms:

[for] the trumpet shall sound,
[and] the dead shall be raised incorruptable,
[and] we shall be changed.

Only the last one is associated with 'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye'.

I believe that there are three 'sub-events' in the overall event:

1) the Resurrection - the raising of the dead saints ('raised incorruptable' does not necessarily include the "change")
2) the "change" - all of the saints receive their glorified body together - the raised dead and the still alive
3) the Rapture - the "catching up" of all of the saints

However, it is certainly nothing to split hairs over...

It confirms:

1) Resurrection
2) Rapture

Be careful not to include things it does not actually say.

No - the real issue is whether or not you are willing to temporarily 'suspend' all-that-you-think-you-know about the End Times Scenario and study the scriptures without "clinging to" the "assumed facts" foundation that you were taught to never-give-up-no-matter-what. (PRIDE is the 'concrete' that holds it in place.)

You and others do not even realize that you are wrapping scripture around a concept/idea that has been planted deep in your subconscience.

What you are thinking of as "clear proof" in this situation does not actually come "straight out" of scripture - it comes "straight out" of that deep-seated concept/idea - which you have been subconsciously taught to "protect" at-all-costs by wrapping whatever scripture around it that may be considered to be in support of it. I know this is hard for you to believe; however, you would do well to consider it - for your own sake, as well as that of others you may be inclined to teach.

Nawww. Despite your impeccible grammar, Nehemiah is right on this. The rapture is when dead Christians will be raised from the dead and living Christians will be changed "in the blink of an eye" and we will meet Jesus Christ in the air. It will precede the second coming of Christ, when he comes TO earth.

GaryA · Jan 28, 2023

studentoftheword said:

It is important not to initially-and-permanently assume they are two events - and, then - because of it - inject error into all further interpretation of scripture on the subject.

studentoftheword · Jan 28, 2023

GaryA said:

It is very important ----TO NOTE ----- initially-and-permanently ------NOT TO -----assume they are two events and INJECT Your ERROR into your Further False Interpretation of Scripture ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT SUBJECT ------

2 SEPARATE EVENTS ------the Rapture before the Tribulation and the Separating of the Sheep and the Goats after the tribulation ------

You have given no evidence to substantiate your Claim ---Why ---because you CANNOT -------

GaryA · Jan 28, 2023

studentoftheword said:

I don't see it that you have given any evidence to substantiate your claim...

Nehemiah6 · Jan 28, 2023

GaryA said:

More baloney from Gary who is trying to twist the plain truth to fit into his ideas. You should be very fearful of corrupting God's truth.

studentoftheword · Jan 28, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

studentoftheword · Jan 28, 2023

GaryA said:

That is because Satan has you so deceived your wallowing in the mud of his lies and he has blinded your mind and he has hardened your heart to the truth of scripture -----

You don't know if your staying or going =====your very Confused

Your in Bondage to Mr Satan and he has you reeled in like a big fish on his

and he is laughing all the way to his soul bank ------

GaryA · Jan 28, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

studentoftheword said:

I sincerely hope y'all are standing in front of a mirror while saying this...

studentoftheword · Jan 28, 2023

GaryA said:

GaryA · Jan 28, 2023

GaryA said:

Without realizing it, this is exactly-and-precisely what pre-trib folks do. They consider the assumption of the [supposed] two separate events to be 'original' and 'supreme' in scripture. And then, they make sure that they interpret scripture in a way that will [only] support that built-in foundational buried-in-concrete assumption (that has no real actual support in scripture).

(This all happens in the subconscious mind - which is why they don't realize it.)

GaryA · Jan 28, 2023

GaryA said:

You must - it is a requirement - if you wish to arrive at the proper conclusion/interpretation...

GaryA · Jan 28, 2023

studentoftheword said:

Laugh now, cry later...

Saul-to-Paul · Jan 28, 2023

studentoftheword said:

That's a lie. How many times do I have to post this verse? Did you even study this chapter?

Revelation 11:11,12

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

studentoftheword · Jan 29, 2023

Saul-to-Paul said:

I say
as you will see the tribulation is still going and the unbelievers who when through the 7 seals and lived are still here on earth -----as this the 7 Trumpet phase of the Tribulation --------here we are in the 6th Trumpet -----the 7th is about to begin -------

Your Scripture Here is about the 2 Witnesses -----
it has nothing to do with the Rapture of the Church -----

The 2 Witnesses are sent from Heaven to Prophesy around the world------and they are killed and left in the street for 3 and a half days --and then are raised up and caught back up to heaven

The scripture does not give who the 2 witnesses are---- but my personal view is --------they are Moses and Elijah as there were the 2 that appeared on the Mountain when Jesus was transfigured ------

Revelation 11----see your verse 11

Easy-to-Read Version

The Two Witnesses

11 Then I was given a measuring rod as long as a walking stick. I was told, “Go and measure the temple[a] of God and the altar, and count the people worshiping there. 2 But don’t measure the yard outside the temple. Leave it alone. It has been given to those who are not God’s people. They will show their power over the holy city for 42 months.

3 And I will give power to my two witnesses. And they will prophesy for 1260 days. They will be dressed in sackcloth.”

4 These two witnesses are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to hurt the witnesses, fire comes from the mouths of the witnesses and kills their enemies. Anyone who tries to hurt them will die like this. 6 These witnesses have the power to stop the sky from raining during the time they are prophesying. These witnesses have power to make the water become blood. They have power to send every kind of plague to the earth. They can do this as many times as they want.

7 When the two witnesses have finished telling their message, the beast will fight against them. This is the beast that comes up from the bottomless pit. It will defeat and kill them.

8 The bodies of the two witnesses will lie in the street of the great city. This city is named Sodom and Egypt. These names for the city have a special meaning. This is the city where the Lord was killed.

9 People from every race of people, tribe, language, and nation will look at the bodies of the two witnesses for three and a half days. The people will refuse to bury them.

10 Everyone on the earth will be happy because these two are dead. They will have parties and send each other gifts. They will do this because these two prophets brought much suffering to the people living on earth.

11 But after three and a half days, God let life enter the two witnesses again. They stood on their feet. All those who saw them were filled with fear.

12 Then the two witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven say, “Come up here!” And both of them went up into heaven in a cloud. Their enemies watched them go.

13 At that same time there was a great earthquake. A tenth of the city was destroyed.

And 7000 people were killed in the earthquake. Those who did not die were very afraid. They gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second terror is now past. The third terror is coming soon.

The Seventh Trumpet Blast

15 The seventh angel blew his trumpet. Then there were loud voices in heaven. The voices said,
“The kingdom of the world has now become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah.
And he will rule forever and ever.”
16 Then the 24 elders bowed down on their faces and worshiped God. These are the elders who sit on their thrones before God. 17 The elders said,

Read the end here -----
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 11&version=ERV

I say
Your way 0ff base with this scripture -------as far as any prove of the rapture of the Church ----

Is the “day of Christ” the day of the Rapture?

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