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We can look to the name Israel and know:
Jacob: "heel-grabber" or "suplanter" (struggles with flesh)
becomes
Israel: "struggles with El"
And Jacob thought he was still struggling with man until he saw Him face to face.
So is it the church? I think it depends on how we define church. Because the borders are spiritual.
Do we make God in our image and assume His authority for ourselves like Jacob?
Or do we long to know who He really is?
I believe the latter is the church. They just don't know it because they are being led astray.
Jacob thought he could divide the camp so that half would be saved. But that's not what YHWH told him to do. He just said "go back."
The "church" should be spiritual Israel. And just like the genetic descendents, they are dispersed among the nations, not clumped up together in Jersey and the middle east.
Jacob: "heel-grabber" or "suplanter" (struggles with flesh)
becomes
Israel: "struggles with El"
And Jacob thought he was still struggling with man until he saw Him face to face.
So is it the church? I think it depends on how we define church. Because the borders are spiritual.
Do we make God in our image and assume His authority for ourselves like Jacob?
Or do we long to know who He really is?
I believe the latter is the church. They just don't know it because they are being led astray.
Jacob thought he could divide the camp so that half would be saved. But that's not what YHWH told him to do. He just said "go back."
The "church" should be spiritual Israel. And just like the genetic descendents, they are dispersed among the nations, not clumped up together in Jersey and the middle east.
New covenant circumcision of the heart for starters. God didn't change His plan, He sent Y'Shua to wake up our hearts.
First to the jew, then to the gentile. You have only been told you were a gentile, because you don't wear a funny hat. But scripture says we're dispersed among all nations. Your heart reveals your identity.
We might be one spiritually (though we may still be asleep), we might be one genetically (though we may look like a "color"), and I think both usually go hand in hand, people just don't know it's even possible because of that funny hat vs. cross necklace separation that has been presented to us.
Israel was always God's chosen people because their hearts were different than all the other people around them. Coincidentally, "few in number."
Then secondly, maybe I'm not what most people expect a "christian" to be, but I can't read the bible without it being obvious that idealistic Israel is the idealistic church, the good woman, and wayward Israel is the wayward church, the harlot. Take the latest chapter in my signature for example. Read the whole chapter if you want to see a reality check on what modern christianity is doing today. I don't think this prophecy of "the day of YHWH" is centered around a tiny religious group in the middle east.
Not to say you or me or any particular person fit that prophecy, but rather the scene as a whole.
Untempered mortar: fast food faith. A wall and a shield serve the same purpose, both to be faith.
Pillows: modern version of evangelism. "Go get'em boys. Take a hankerchief to wipe your sweat, cause the more you save, the more you please God." and "Just say the word Jesus so I can click my counter and you can lay back down. Cool, thanks."
The borders are spiritual. We all know "christians" who are far from love. We all know "pagans" who cling to hope and love but won't embrace "christianity" because it's face is twisted.
First to the jew, then to the gentile. You have only been told you were a gentile, because you don't wear a funny hat. But scripture says we're dispersed among all nations. Your heart reveals your identity.
We might be one spiritually (though we may still be asleep), we might be one genetically (though we may look like a "color"), and I think both usually go hand in hand, people just don't know it's even possible because of that funny hat vs. cross necklace separation that has been presented to us.
Israel was always God's chosen people because their hearts were different than all the other people around them. Coincidentally, "few in number."
Then secondly, maybe I'm not what most people expect a "christian" to be, but I can't read the bible without it being obvious that idealistic Israel is the idealistic church, the good woman, and wayward Israel is the wayward church, the harlot. Take the latest chapter in my signature for example. Read the whole chapter if you want to see a reality check on what modern christianity is doing today. I don't think this prophecy of "the day of YHWH" is centered around a tiny religious group in the middle east.
Not to say you or me or any particular person fit that prophecy, but rather the scene as a whole.
Untempered mortar: fast food faith. A wall and a shield serve the same purpose, both to be faith.
Pillows: modern version of evangelism. "Go get'em boys. Take a hankerchief to wipe your sweat, cause the more you save, the more you please God." and "Just say the word Jesus so I can click my counter and you can lay back down. Cool, thanks."
The borders are spiritual. We all know "christians" who are far from love. We all know "pagans" who cling to hope and love but won't embrace "christianity" because it's face is twisted.
GALATIANS CHAPTER 3
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”a 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”b 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”c 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”d 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”e 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”f 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
The Law and the Promise
15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”g meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christh that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Sons of God
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”a 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”b 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”c 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”d 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”e 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”f 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
The Law and the Promise
15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”g meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christh that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Sons of God
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
B
Has the Church replaced Israel? Is God done with Israel? Do people not see the Jewish people gathering back to Israel and becoming a nation again in 1948 as being significant?
This is something I read online at letusreason.org. What are your thoughts on it?
Many transfer the promises and the covenants of Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this. The Church is not spiritual Israel. Look up this phrase; you’ll never find the term or concept in the Bible. There are only two verses that are used to validate this view, both are unsupported when they are read in their full context.
There was no Church in the Old Testament because there was no incarnation, no revelation of the Son, nor his sacrifice that broke down the middle wall of partition that separated the Jews from the Gentiles (Eph.2:14). For the Church is made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles, not so for Israel.
Gal.3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham but this does not make them descendants of Jacob, who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arabs, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob. God had specially promised to Israel salvation and the believing Jews received it through the gospel. But Paul explains that not all the natural descendants of Jacob were embraced in this “Israel;” for that “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel” (Rom. 9:6). As Paul already declared in an earlier chapter: “He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly” (Rom. 2:28, 29). The seed which is Israel is from Jacob and the apostle and other writers make a clear distinction between this and Abraham’s seed.
“But they have not all obeyed the gospel” ( Rom. 10:16). They have not all responded to God’s call to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. This is foretold by Isaiah, who is quoted by Paul in Rom. 9:27; that only a remnant of the natural descendants of Jacob would obtain the salvation of God. “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the remnant hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded” (Rom. 11:7).
The other verse is Gal.6:16 where Paul is addressing both believing Jews and Gentiles in the church “As many as walk according to this rule (Gentile believers) and upon “the Israel of God.” This can be made clear by the preceding verses v.12-13 where Paul is tackling the topic of circumcision and the Jews influence to have the gentiles circumcised. He then tells us the mandatory rite of the Abrahamic covenant is not applicable to the believer but it is the cross that is necessary to make a new creation. In its context this term means Jews who are believers, who believe salvation is by faith in Christ contrary to what the Judaizer's were teaching that the law was needed also. Those (Jews) who obey this are the Israel of God (the remnant). Paul also addresses this in Rom.9:6-8 that there are two Israel's, one that consists of Jews and the elect, the true Israel which are the physical posterity and also have the faith of Abraham, they are the Israel of God mentioned in Gal.6. As Paul states, “ for they are not all Israel who are of Israel” (Rom.9:6). There is also “Israel” after the flesh found in 1 Cor.10:18. The Church is never called spiritual Israel or is a new Israel replacing the old. Nor does it say believers become Jews. Both gentiles and Jews participate together in the New Covenant. as Eph. 2 addresses the middle wall of partition being broken down and God making a new entity. The church is neither Jew or Gentile but consists of both. The two put together make one “new man,” a third entity that is not Israel nor gentile. The word Israel is used 73 times in the New Testament, not once is it used for the Church.
Isa.43:5 “I will bring your descendants from the east and gather you from the west...”
It is a nation that is being gathered today for the tribulation in their original homeland Israel, they are gathered first in unbelief until that fateful day where in Romans 11 Paul says they will all be saved, after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The Church (made up of both Jews and Gentiles) and is dealt with differently than the nation of Israel, God obviously has a different plan for both.
This is something I read online at letusreason.org. What are your thoughts on it?
IS THE CHURCH (spiritual) ISRAEL?
We now come to something that is crucial and needs to be defined to understand the new covenant. Is the Church Israel? For if it is, we are obligated to keep Sabbath day at least in a general sense. If the Church is not Israel then what sense would there be to keep the Sabbath. In the Scripture we find the Church is not Israel the nation, but a separate entity under an entirely new covenant. Israel is called the wife of Jehovah in the Old Testament, while the Church is called the bride of Christ in the New Testament. This shows distinctions in how God relates to each, and how each group is related to God. The word Israel is always descriptive of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It was Jacob whose name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons that became the nation of Israel. It is the physical posterity of Jacob that is Israel, this is what makes one Jewish. Many transfer the promises and the covenants of Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this. The Church is not spiritual Israel. Look up this phrase; you’ll never find the term or concept in the Bible. There are only two verses that are used to validate this view, both are unsupported when they are read in their full context.
There was no Church in the Old Testament because there was no incarnation, no revelation of the Son, nor his sacrifice that broke down the middle wall of partition that separated the Jews from the Gentiles (Eph.2:14). For the Church is made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles, not so for Israel.
Gal.3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham but this does not make them descendants of Jacob, who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arabs, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob. God had specially promised to Israel salvation and the believing Jews received it through the gospel. But Paul explains that not all the natural descendants of Jacob were embraced in this “Israel;” for that “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel” (Rom. 9:6). As Paul already declared in an earlier chapter: “He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly” (Rom. 2:28, 29). The seed which is Israel is from Jacob and the apostle and other writers make a clear distinction between this and Abraham’s seed.
“But they have not all obeyed the gospel” ( Rom. 10:16). They have not all responded to God’s call to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. This is foretold by Isaiah, who is quoted by Paul in Rom. 9:27; that only a remnant of the natural descendants of Jacob would obtain the salvation of God. “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the remnant hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded” (Rom. 11:7).
Gal. 3:7 “Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham." Being a son of Abraham does not make one a Jew, being a son of Jacob does, so a gentile can be a son of Abraham. But Jew’s are a son of Abraham and of Jacob.
As Paul stated in Rom. 4:11-16, the children of Abraham, are those who have the faith of Abraham, whether by their natural birth they were Jews or Gentiles. This is detailed in Galatians 3 and 4; Gal. 3:26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus” both Jews and Gentiles are spiritual brethren in the body of Christ.” The apostle says, to Gentile believers: “And if ye be Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Gal. 3:29). So those who accept the Gospel both Jews and Gentiles are of Abraham's seed, but only those who are physically Israel are from Jacobs seed. The other verse is Gal.6:16 where Paul is addressing both believing Jews and Gentiles in the church “As many as walk according to this rule (Gentile believers) and upon “the Israel of God.” This can be made clear by the preceding verses v.12-13 where Paul is tackling the topic of circumcision and the Jews influence to have the gentiles circumcised. He then tells us the mandatory rite of the Abrahamic covenant is not applicable to the believer but it is the cross that is necessary to make a new creation. In its context this term means Jews who are believers, who believe salvation is by faith in Christ contrary to what the Judaizer's were teaching that the law was needed also. Those (Jews) who obey this are the Israel of God (the remnant). Paul also addresses this in Rom.9:6-8 that there are two Israel's, one that consists of Jews and the elect, the true Israel which are the physical posterity and also have the faith of Abraham, they are the Israel of God mentioned in Gal.6. As Paul states, “ for they are not all Israel who are of Israel” (Rom.9:6). There is also “Israel” after the flesh found in 1 Cor.10:18. The Church is never called spiritual Israel or is a new Israel replacing the old. Nor does it say believers become Jews. Both gentiles and Jews participate together in the New Covenant. as Eph. 2 addresses the middle wall of partition being broken down and God making a new entity. The church is neither Jew or Gentile but consists of both. The two put together make one “new man,” a third entity that is not Israel nor gentile. The word Israel is used 73 times in the New Testament, not once is it used for the Church.
Romans 2:28-29, “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.” Notice that the whole chapter is addressing the Jews. Within Paul’s theme of the book of Romans he addresses mankind that can be outlined in 3 portions. The whole world is under condemnation of sin1:18-3:30; then he addresses the Gentiles 1:18-2:16; He addresses the Jews 2:17-3:20.
According to Paul’s specific aim in this portion of the letter, not all the descendants from Jacob are Israel; as he states on 9:6 “They are not all Israel who are Israel.” Not all who are named Jews are truly Jews, the true Israel of God (the Jews) are those who believe in the Messiah. Rom.2:17- 20 starts with the greater responsibility the Jews have. He points to the law that was not given to the Gentiles but the nation of Israel, and they have the responsibility of knowing God.
It never says anything about a gentile being a spiritual Jew but is explaining that one is really Jewish not by the keeping of the law, but having a born again experience and following the Messiah. Paul is directing the teaching of the promised new covenant specifically to the Jews who believe, although the Gentiles are included. Paul is not teaching Gentiles become spiritual Jews but not all Jews are true Jews. There are Jews who believe and the Jews who are in unbelief. Just as it is put in other areas of a remnant among Israel, the true believers and a non-remnant, believing Israel as the Israel of God.
A believing Gentile becomes a spiritual son of Abraham which is an inheritor of the spiritual blessings God promised to the Jews, they are grafted into the covenant he made with Israel.
According to Paul’s specific aim in this portion of the letter, not all the descendants from Jacob are Israel; as he states on 9:6 “They are not all Israel who are Israel.” Not all who are named Jews are truly Jews, the true Israel of God (the Jews) are those who believe in the Messiah. Rom.2:17- 20 starts with the greater responsibility the Jews have. He points to the law that was not given to the Gentiles but the nation of Israel, and they have the responsibility of knowing God.
It never says anything about a gentile being a spiritual Jew but is explaining that one is really Jewish not by the keeping of the law, but having a born again experience and following the Messiah. Paul is directing the teaching of the promised new covenant specifically to the Jews who believe, although the Gentiles are included. Paul is not teaching Gentiles become spiritual Jews but not all Jews are true Jews. There are Jews who believe and the Jews who are in unbelief. Just as it is put in other areas of a remnant among Israel, the true believers and a non-remnant, believing Israel as the Israel of God.
A believing Gentile becomes a spiritual son of Abraham which is an inheritor of the spiritual blessings God promised to the Jews, they are grafted into the covenant he made with Israel.
As for Israel, the Jews, Jer.30:18, 31:8 “Behold I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the ends of the earth.”Isa.43:5 “I will bring your descendants from the east and gather you from the west...”
It is a nation that is being gathered today for the tribulation in their original homeland Israel, they are gathered first in unbelief until that fateful day where in Romans 11 Paul says they will all be saved, after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The Church (made up of both Jews and Gentiles) and is dealt with differently than the nation of Israel, God obviously has a different plan for both.
That;s not what you asked Bornhuman.
The thread was a question if the assembly of believers was 'spiritual' Israel.
To which the answer is yes.
That doesn't mean physical Israel is left out.
They are mutually exclusive.
One is Abram's sands of the sea that received the promise-(physical Israel);
and the other is Abraham's stars of heaven-(Spiritual Israel).
It's like comparing apples to oranges.
The thread was a question if the assembly of believers was 'spiritual' Israel.
To which the answer is yes.
That doesn't mean physical Israel is left out.
They are mutually exclusive.
One is Abram's sands of the sea that received the promise-(physical Israel);
and the other is Abraham's stars of heaven-(Spiritual Israel).
It's like comparing apples to oranges.
B
Ok, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of things. I was under the impression that people who describe the Church as spiritual Israel tend to believe that the Church has replaced Israel or that the Church inherits the promises that were given to Israel? Is that not accurate? Or is it that they just simply believe that Israel has expanded to include the Church?
I would love to hear your thinking on what I put here. New Jerusalem will come down from our God, Yahweh, in heaven. Now, not being a wise guy here, does this say anything to your mind, heart, and soul? The reference is from the Book, Revelation. Yahweh, God, bless you, and I would like very much to hear your honest application of this to your question.....
Alot of extraneous doctrines have been put forth on this subject.
Me personally? I just go by the prophecies in the book of Genesis
to Abraham by God Himself.
God told him,(Abram); that his seed would multiply to resemble the sand of the seashore
and the stars of heaven.
The traditional view held by scholars is that the sand,( being what man was made from-clay) meant
his physical lineage.
And the stars,( being in the heavens); stood for his spiritual descendents - with Abraham being the
father of faith.
I believe this to be the correct interpretation.
I also believe that the physical 'vine' as it were, will be re-grafted into God's heavenly kingdom.
I think Paul points this out in his monologue about Israel in Romans chapters 9-11.
But even when they are, still it's going to be spiritually the body of Christ, which is the church.
What I;m saying is when physical Israel is 'saved', for lack of a better term; they will become part
of the body of Christ(spiritual Israel), and not that the body of Christ will transmogrify back into
the physical nation of Israel.
Me personally? I just go by the prophecies in the book of Genesis
to Abraham by God Himself.
God told him,(Abram); that his seed would multiply to resemble the sand of the seashore
and the stars of heaven.
The traditional view held by scholars is that the sand,( being what man was made from-clay) meant
his physical lineage.
And the stars,( being in the heavens); stood for his spiritual descendents - with Abraham being the
father of faith.
I believe this to be the correct interpretation.
I also believe that the physical 'vine' as it were, will be re-grafted into God's heavenly kingdom.
I think Paul points this out in his monologue about Israel in Romans chapters 9-11.
But even when they are, still it's going to be spiritually the body of Christ, which is the church.
What I;m saying is when physical Israel is 'saved', for lack of a better term; they will become part
of the body of Christ(spiritual Israel), and not that the body of Christ will transmogrify back into
the physical nation of Israel.
The moment the Holy Spirit came into me, everything turned to light. It happened while "prayer talking" to our Maker and walking across the Quadrangle at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana, Illinois. The message coming with the infilling of the Holy Spirit was simple, at least for Yahweh, God to say. "Everything is going to be just fine." The joy cannot be related in mere words. I practically flew back to the Student Union (Illini Union), and it seemed as though my feet were not touching the ground. I headed straight to a friend, Shelly, and he could see something new about me. He asked me, "What happened to you, Jack?" I said, God's Spirit came into me, your God, Yahweh." Now, I did not know much of anything about the Bible. Previously I could not read it, but I did remember my Bible school lessons about Jesus, and that Jesus loves me, and up to that moment, that was my religion, when I though at all about anything to do with worship. I did know enough to know that our Savior came to us by way of Jews, so I knew to say Yahweh, although I did not know it is forbidden for many sects of Jews to pronounce the name.
One thing led to another, led by God, Himself, first to an odd book, it was blue and opened, in the store room of The Red Herring, a coffee house on campus. Without looking on the outside, I picked it up and began to read. The words were alive, and all I could do was to keep repeating, "right on" as youth tended to say a lot in 1969. I read and read. It turned out to be the Book of Isaiah, and the book was the Oxford Bible.
The next day, I went to the student book store and bought my own Oxford Bible. For three years it was never out of my hand. From the Student Union I went to the Rocky Mountains to camp out with the Lord, and no one else, reading His Word, eating His Word. Everything was so good and fresh. I would pray to share with some one, and God would send someone. One night, coming back to my campsite away from anyone and everyone, I prayed, "Oh Jesus, I am so tired, and I don't want to dispute with people about your truth. If you could just send five Jews who simply want to hear what you have for them through me, that would be such a rest for me, please, amen" Sitting by my campfire, I heard a bit of a ruckus, and five boys came almost falling through the surrounding brush and trees, and they were starved to hear what was to be said. Yahweh, God, gave me the words for them. When finished, they left my isolated campsite. They were five Jews traveling to the West Coast from the Bronx, or with their accent the Bron-x.
Since the moment I picked up the Book and began my The Way provided just for me by our Yeshua, I have always thought in terms of two Israels, the teaching Israel, and the true Israel, only later to realize its capitol is New Jerusalem. I have always thank Yahweh, God, for the Jews because He loved them first, and because they took very good care of His Word for all the World to be saved in Jesus, Yeshua. Blessed be every single member of the Body that is Jesus, Yeshua, amen................
One thing led to another, led by God, Himself, first to an odd book, it was blue and opened, in the store room of The Red Herring, a coffee house on campus. Without looking on the outside, I picked it up and began to read. The words were alive, and all I could do was to keep repeating, "right on" as youth tended to say a lot in 1969. I read and read. It turned out to be the Book of Isaiah, and the book was the Oxford Bible.
The next day, I went to the student book store and bought my own Oxford Bible. For three years it was never out of my hand. From the Student Union I went to the Rocky Mountains to camp out with the Lord, and no one else, reading His Word, eating His Word. Everything was so good and fresh. I would pray to share with some one, and God would send someone. One night, coming back to my campsite away from anyone and everyone, I prayed, "Oh Jesus, I am so tired, and I don't want to dispute with people about your truth. If you could just send five Jews who simply want to hear what you have for them through me, that would be such a rest for me, please, amen" Sitting by my campfire, I heard a bit of a ruckus, and five boys came almost falling through the surrounding brush and trees, and they were starved to hear what was to be said. Yahweh, God, gave me the words for them. When finished, they left my isolated campsite. They were five Jews traveling to the West Coast from the Bronx, or with their accent the Bron-x.
Since the moment I picked up the Book and began my The Way provided just for me by our Yeshua, I have always thought in terms of two Israels, the teaching Israel, and the true Israel, only later to realize its capitol is New Jerusalem. I have always thank Yahweh, God, for the Jews because He loved them first, and because they took very good care of His Word for all the World to be saved in Jesus, Yeshua. Blessed be every single member of the Body that is Jesus, Yeshua, amen................
B
This says to me that we will all be one in the eternity. Though I tend to believe for the time being that God has a separate plan for the Church and Israel. I also tend to believe God is going to redeem Israel and that there will be a 1,000 year millennial reign after the return of Christ. I'm still trying to sort all of this stuff out in my head 
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This says to me that we will all be one in the eternity. Though I tend to believe for the time being that God has a separate plan for the Church and Israel. I also tend to believe God is going to redeem Israel and that there will be a 1,000 year millennial reign after the return of Christ. I'm still trying to sort all of this stuff out in my head
C
Since you made stated the opposite about yourself to begin, I feel obligated to mention that I am not dispensationalist--so that there is no confusion about what I am talking about.
Hebrews is always where I turn for this sort of stuff, and the conclusion I draw from it is that the church is not, in fact, replacing Israel, but that Israel was not a saved community outside of Christ. The purpose of Israel was to be set apart from the nations to display God's grace and mighty works. Thus, you have prophets like Isaiah describing the coming of the world-wide multitude, saying, "Come, let us worship God on the holy hill of Zion." (note: this is a paraphrase from memory, so excuse me for the inexactness)
Hebrews discusses how no one was saved under the covenant of Moses--"the blood of bulls and goats did not cover sin" also a paraphrase--but that they looked upon something in the future and, while trusting in it, did not know it precisely. This is Christ, at least to the author of Hebrews. So, the change from Israel to the post-Christ church was not a salvatory transition but one of expectation to realization and metaphor to actualization, if that makes sense.
So, as to your precise question, I do not see the church as being the spiritual Israel, but Israel as the pre-Christ expression of God's church.
Hope that helps.
Hebrews is always where I turn for this sort of stuff, and the conclusion I draw from it is that the church is not, in fact, replacing Israel, but that Israel was not a saved community outside of Christ. The purpose of Israel was to be set apart from the nations to display God's grace and mighty works. Thus, you have prophets like Isaiah describing the coming of the world-wide multitude, saying, "Come, let us worship God on the holy hill of Zion." (note: this is a paraphrase from memory, so excuse me for the inexactness)
Hebrews discusses how no one was saved under the covenant of Moses--"the blood of bulls and goats did not cover sin" also a paraphrase--but that they looked upon something in the future and, while trusting in it, did not know it precisely. This is Christ, at least to the author of Hebrews. So, the change from Israel to the post-Christ church was not a salvatory transition but one of expectation to realization and metaphor to actualization, if that makes sense.
So, as to your precise question, I do not see the church as being the spiritual Israel, but Israel as the pre-Christ expression of God's church.
Hope that helps.
I can only tell you what I know, what our Father has planned for us is too marvelous to utter. He is so glorious and being with Him in light forever is too much to begin to understand now. It is like when the Holy Spirit came into us, all Light and Alive. After that experience the world, itself, looked like a stage of dead props for some time. The truth is, when we are truly with our Father forever, it will be so much more brilliant, but no one can say the enormity of greatness it is. It is infinitely good.
About the thousand years, I really am afraid to pronounce myself on that. It will be, because it is written it will be. Beyond this would be wrong for me to attempt to say more. It is good, and glory to God, Yahweh, amen.
For now, I read and reread and listen to what others understand, then like Mary, and because it does not drive home, I keep all in my heart until it is revealed for me. There is not harm in this since we all know the only thing to truly know is Jesus Christ, Yeshua, crucified for our sins saving us from eternal separation from Him. He is so good, amen........
What a beautiful testimony above JaumeJ!
Terrific, absolutely terrific!
Isn't God Great!
Man that made my day!
What a beautiful Savior to do that for you;
and save you in such a way!
Yeshua surely has His hand on your life!
No wonder your so happy all the time!
God's grace endures through the ages doesn't it?
Terrific, absolutely terrific!
Isn't God Great!
Man that made my day!
What a beautiful Savior to do that for you;
and save you in such a way!
Yeshua surely has His hand on your life!
No wonder your so happy all the time!
God's grace endures through the ages doesn't it?