Is the Church spiritual Israel?

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Bornhuman

Guest
#21
About those future events, although I do have ideas and thoughts and meditations on the subjects, I will not put my hand in the fire to say I know for certain about any of them. I read, pray, and wait on the Lord for most of the events to come, but I must say, what you have shared is more than intriguing, and it has occurred to me, but again, coward that I am, I would not attempt saying yea or nay either way. Yahweh, God bless you always, amen. (I look forward to the Kingdom and the King.)
I'm not certain either. I just tend to favor the ideas that I mentioned, but I'm open to the fact that they could be wrong thats why I'm interested in other peoples views. I think the silent approach is a wise one when you are uncertain. I should probably take that approach more often as well.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#22
What a beautiful testimony above JaumeJ!
Terrific, absolutely terrific!
Isn't God Great!
Man that made my day!
What a beautiful Savior to do that for you;
and save you in such a way!
Yeshua surely has His hand on your life!
No wonder your so happy all the time!
God's grace endures through the ages doesn't it?
First I praise Yahweh, God, for your love of Him also. You are the second person to ask me why I am "so happy" all the time. The other is my sister, the one with bone cancer, who also asked me, in her words, "I don't know how you can be so up all of the time?"
I relate this because I certainly do not notice it at all. I pray I am not becoming calloused to the point of not even noticing my own joy.
God's grace most certainly endures, it is fresh every morning, according to the prophet, and as you have said, it is eternal.
Please pray we all be worthy of the kind words in this website for each other. They are glory to Yahweh, God and to none other, amen.
We must care for each other in Jesus Christ, otherwise there is no point in being here, posting, edifying and exhorting. Yes, on line is one of the assemblies of Yahweh, and the glory is His, amen.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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#23
The guys and the country on TV are a fabricated genetic Israel, a fabricated "chosen people."
Modern christianity is a fabricated border of a fabricated second "chosen people."
Scripture and our struggle tell us who we are.
Scattered and enslaved among all nations, tongues and tribes.
We are being called out of confusion.

Peace.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#24
The guys and the country on TV are a fabricated genetic Israel, a fabricated "chosen people."
Modern christianity is a fabricated border of a fabricated second "chosen people."
Scripture and our struggle tell us who we are.
Scattered and enslaved among all nations, tongues and tribes.
We are being called out of confusion.

Peace.

I like your post, but I do not truly understand all of it. My like is for the last three lines. God bless you WIOH!
 
Jul 12, 2012
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#25
I like your post, but I do not truly understand all of it. My like is for the last three lines. God bless you WIOH!
The guys and the country on TV are a fabricated genetic Israel, a fabricated "chosen people."
Descended from early eastern european non-Jews who mixed with a small group of, but not all, early real Jews, who in turn, packed up and left, still as Jews. The outsiders kept the name and the pharisaic religion. Sorry, I can't remember the exact names of the peoples, but seems like "Khazars" and "Huns" were a part of it? It's hard to research, but can be done. It's been shoved under the rug. And it's also been abused to make some weird doctrines about the tribes.
Modern christianity is a fabricated border of a fabricated second "chosen people."
We are told that the "jews" are still God's chosen people, at the same time we are told we are the bride of Christ. There's still only one chosen people, and we're all mixed in.

Hope that helps. :p
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#26
Descended from early eastern european non-Jews who mixed with a small group of, but not all, early real Jews, who in turn, packed up and left, still as Jews. The outsiders kept the name and the pharisaic religion. Sorry, I can't remember the exact names of the peoples, but seems like "Khazars" and "Huns" were a part of it? It's hard to research, but can be done. It's been shoved under the rug. And it's also been abused to make some weird doctrines about the tribes.
We are told that the "jews" are still God's chosen people, at the same time we are told we are the bride of Christ. There's still only one chosen people, and we're all mixed in.

Hope that helps. :p
Thank you, brother, for the elaboration. Do you ever think in terms of when Jesus, the Good Shepherd, teaches us of His other flock, how He was bringing it together with His flock? I believe it is speaking of the gentiles being brought together with those who believe of the Jews to the faith of Abraham. I brought this up because it came to mind with the subject, no other reason, thanks.....
Does any of your research say anything about the Ashkenazim(i) Jews? They are said to be the European Jews. I know here in Spain, many so-called Spanish name come from Jewish ancestors. Almost every church and cathedral here in Spain has what we refer to as the star of David somewhere in the decor, usually in the stain glass windows. This is curios, and may interest you. There are times I suspect the ten lost tribes may be in Spain, but that admittedly is an off-the-wall thought.
 
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Jul 12, 2012
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#27
Do you ever think in terms of when Jesus, the Good Shepherd, teaches us of His other flock, how He was bringing it together with His flock? I believe it is speaking of the gentiles being brought together with those who believe of the Jews to the faith of Abraham.
If I read you right, yes.
I believe the first flock is Israel, "first to the Jew", and the other flock is the rest of the world, "then to the gentile."

Does any of your research say anything about the Ashkenazim(i) Jews?
Yeah, that's them, but notice that most resources that mention this have a bias towards proving where each tribe went. Not so sure about the accuracy of those tribal theories, but even if they are true, people have intermixed a lot just since then. Look how America's color has changed in the last 50 years alone.
Or how OT families were intermixing. The only line from Abraham we have recorded is Y'Shua's. How many other lines were there and where'd they all travel to?
Look at circumcision in isolated places all around the world. They got that from Abraham, Ishmael or Israel, long before the Ashkenazi thing. They didn't just all pop up on their own and say "hey, cutting foreskins, that sounds awesome", and they have kept it and animal sacrifice above all other religious ideals because it makes for some great parties, no matter who you worship.
They like us, have simply forgotten who they are.

The more you think about it, the more likely it seems that a LOT of people as promised, are genetic "jews" now.
 
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Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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#28
Ok, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of things. I was under the impression that people who describe the Church as spiritual Israel tend to believe that the Church has replaced Israel or that the Church inherits the promises that were given to Israel? Is that not accurate? Or is it that they just simply believe that Israel has expanded to include the Church?

I believe the Church is a continuation of True Israel (not a replacement) and I claim that the church always existed. God always had a people, 1 people, 1 elect regarding salvation (those who love Him and obey Him). I believe Natural Israel was elected of God to bring good news to the world, but failed by God's design. I believe natural/ancient Israel was elected to bring forth Christ, to teach us God's attributes and to be an object lesson for us today. I believe that both OT and NT saints inherits God's promises, The land itself has a topological/ultra fulfillment in the 2nd coming of Christ, which I believe issues in the eternal state, the New Jerusalem, the New Heaven and New Earth.

I believe that all the chatter about natural Israel today is a big distraction to Christians and hinders us from going about the Lord's business, the great commission. Yes, I believe the Church fulfills prophecy and is Spiritual Israel of today.

Isaiah 55:11-13
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
12“For you shall go out with joy,
And be led out with peace;

The mountains and the hills
Shall break forth into singing before you,
And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress tree,
And instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree;
And it shall be to the Lord for a name,
For an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.”



Now I must duck to avoid all the flaming arrows sent my way!

May God bless you and fill you with His love and peace.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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#29
I want to add that I think the biggest fallacy of the "separation of church and jew" is that we have been taught that:
We aren't jews, we are gentiles, the jews didn't listen, but because they are God's chosen people, He has a slightly different plan and way of dealing with them. That they are subject to an entirely different set of rules on how to get to God. That He makes an exception. I guess in paradise they will be in their own little third corner, eating kosher without Jesus, and there's so few of them we hardly noticed them there while we were gathered around the throne.

This promotes errant end-time prophecies because it insists that you cannot be one of the elect, "144000", because you are not "jew", and it leaves behind "messianic jews" to witness to the rest of the world.
It commits the chosen people to tribulation,
raptures out the chosen chosen,
yet not a 144000 "jews" who know Christ enough to change the world.
If the elect are "left behind", we trade our own potential, being elect, for a theoretical escape of second tier believers. For fear of actually following Y'Shua to the grave. What greater honor could one ask for?

And when people believe this, they still worry about microchips while claiming they won't be here.
Proof that they doubt the pre-trib rapture theory that saves them from the beast.

Pillows and sweat rags sewn on all fours for those who save souls as if to make them fly.
Both scrolls hold the same revelation. Both are sweet in the mouth, both contain woe.

Peace.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#30
No

1. There is no spiritual isreal. The Church is the children of God.
2. Many people were saved before Isreal was even formed
3. People make claims the churhc is spiritual Isreal to take away from Gods promises to natural isreal which will still be fulfilled (see romans 11 with many OT prophesies)
4. There is no jew, greek, male or female, we are all one under Christ.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
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#31
Isaiah prophesies and confirms the gentiles are included in the promise!


Isaiah 56:3-5
3 Do not let the son of the foreigner (anyone outside the ancient or natural nation of Israel, the gentile)
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”; (Do not let the gentile say this to himself)

Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.” (Do not let the gentile say this to himself)

4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
(anyone who does these things God will accept, Jew or gentile alike).
5Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name

Better than that of sons and daughters; (who could this be other then natural descendants of Israel)
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.




When Israel left the captivity of Egypt, many Egyptians left with them and became assimilated into the nation!
Exodus 12;
37 Then the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides children. 38 A mixed multitude went up with them also, and flocks and herds—a great deal of livestock.

Joshua spared Rahab the harlot and her family, non-Israelite, but they assimilated and excepted into the nation. Joshua 6

In the book of Esther, during the Medo-Persian empire, many non Jews joined the Jews in their celebrations regarding the Jew vindication from their enemies;
Esther 9:27
the Jews established and imposed it upon themselves and their descendants and all who would join them, that without fail they should celebrate these two days every year, according to the written instructions and according to the prescribed time,

And don't forget about Ruth the Moabitess! Don't forget the Levitical laws that concern the foreigner that they are to be treated the same, and after the 10th generation can participate in temple services unto the Lord.

Paul clearly teaches that the coming and work of Christ has broken down the barriers between Jew and gentile.
 
C

carey

Guest
#32
I believe we are spiritual Israel because of the scripture that says we were grafted in to the olive tree, i'll have to get the right book and verse to share
 
C

carey

Guest
#33
Read romans chapter 11
 
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Bornhuman

Guest
#34
Thanks for all the responses. I'm still mulling this over in my mind. I'm starting to second guess the dispositional scheme. However, it still seems that God has an end times plan for literal Israel and the ethnic Jews.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#35
Thanks for all the responses. I'm still mulling this over in my mind. I'm starting to second guess the dispositional scheme. However, it still seems that God has an end times plan for literal Israel and the ethnic Jews.
I believe this to be also, so we wait on the Lord, at least that is my plan.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#36
Read romans chapter 11
Romans 11 says that Isreal is separate from gentile, including believing Isreal and believing Gentile. for it says isreal is our enemy, but still loved based on the promises. And one day she will all repent and be saved.
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
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#37
No

1. There is no spiritual isreal. The Church is the children of God.
2. Many people were saved before Isreal was even formed
3. People make claims the churhc is spiritual Isreal to take away from Gods promises to natural isreal which will still be fulfilled (see romans 11 with many OT prophesies)
4. There is no jew, greek, male or female, we are all one under Christ.
I just read an article that said the word "Israel" is used 73 times in the NT, and not once is it used for the church.

This is a pretty good article on Spiritual Israel.

IS THE CHURCH (spiritual) ISRAEL
 
C

carey

Guest
#39
Romans 11 says that Isreal is separate from gentile, including believing Isreal and believing Gentile. for it says isreal is our enemy, but still loved based on the promises. And one day she will all repent and be saved.
How can Israel be seperate from believing gentiles when we have been grafted into Israel?
I disagree with you
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#40
How can Israel be seperate from believing gentiles when we have been grafted into Israel?
I disagree with you

We have not been grafted into Isreal. The root is Christ, isreal was cut off so we could be grafted in, Read the passage again my friend.