Is the Devil bound right now...?
- Thread starter Bowman
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Re: Study up...
My defense of my positions always accompanies my posts. I entered your thread only to encourage 2 friends who seemed unaccustomed to your style of debate--- and I may have been mistaken in that. I don't enjoy discussing things with you: not because I feel inadequate; but because it feels like we are not having the same conversation.
My defense of my positions always accompanies my posts. I entered your thread only to encourage 2 friends who seemed unaccustomed to your style of debate--- and I may have been mistaken in that. I don't enjoy discussing things with you: not because I feel inadequate; but because it feels like we are not having the same conversation.
A review of the obvious…
And I saw a Messenger coming down out of Heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain on his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled. And after these things, he must be set loose a little time. (Rev 20.1 – 3)
Here we have a ‘Messenger’ with the power to bind Satan.
Only God has the power to bind Satan.
As further proof that the Messenger described in Rev 20 is Jesus, we have previous scripture using the same exact verbiage, describing a ‘Messenger’ with the following attributes…
And I saw another strong Messenger coming down out of the heaven, having been clothed with a cloud, and a rainbow on the head; and his face as the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire. And he had in his hand a little scroll having been opened. And he placed his right foot on the sea, and the left on the land, and cried with a great voice, as a lion roars. And when he cried, the seven thunders spoke their sounds. (Rev 10.1 – 3)
Any student of scripture will readily recognize that this passage comes from Ezekiel, as thus…
And from above the expanse that was over their heads was an appearance like a stone of lapis lazuli azure blue, the likeness of a throne. And on the likeness of the throne was a likeness in appearance like a man on it from above. And I saw Him, like the color of polished bronze, looking like fire within it all around. From the appearance of His loins and upward, and from the appearance of His loins and downward, I saw Him looking like fire; and brightness to it all around. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of the rain, so appeared the brightness all around. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Yahweh And I saw, and I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking. (Eze 1.26 – 28)
Clearly, and irrefutably, we have the Messenger of Revelation being described in the very same manner as that of Yahweh!
Thus…it becomes obvious that the Messenger described in both Rev 10 and Rev 20 is indeed The Son, Jesus.
Simple, Biblical Truth.
And I saw a Messenger coming down out of Heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain on his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled. And after these things, he must be set loose a little time. (Rev 20.1 – 3)
Here we have a ‘Messenger’ with the power to bind Satan.
Only God has the power to bind Satan.
As further proof that the Messenger described in Rev 20 is Jesus, we have previous scripture using the same exact verbiage, describing a ‘Messenger’ with the following attributes…
And I saw another strong Messenger coming down out of the heaven, having been clothed with a cloud, and a rainbow on the head; and his face as the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire. And he had in his hand a little scroll having been opened. And he placed his right foot on the sea, and the left on the land, and cried with a great voice, as a lion roars. And when he cried, the seven thunders spoke their sounds. (Rev 10.1 – 3)
Any student of scripture will readily recognize that this passage comes from Ezekiel, as thus…
And from above the expanse that was over their heads was an appearance like a stone of lapis lazuli azure blue, the likeness of a throne. And on the likeness of the throne was a likeness in appearance like a man on it from above. And I saw Him, like the color of polished bronze, looking like fire within it all around. From the appearance of His loins and upward, and from the appearance of His loins and downward, I saw Him looking like fire; and brightness to it all around. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of the rain, so appeared the brightness all around. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Yahweh And I saw, and I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking. (Eze 1.26 – 28)
Clearly, and irrefutably, we have the Messenger of Revelation being described in the very same manner as that of Yahweh!
Thus…it becomes obvious that the Messenger described in both Rev 10 and Rev 20 is indeed The Son, Jesus.
Simple, Biblical Truth.
Re: Study up...
Depends on which Spirit you might be referring. You have not given any evidence that what you have stated has ever been the teaching of scripture. So far, it is a theory that has progressed and is still evolving for 200 years.
It appears also that you have no idea of why Christ came and what He accomplished for man and the world. It is YOUR view that believes there is no resurrection, not scripture. You still need Christ to come again and defeat death which you don't think has been accomplished. That happens to be the meaning of Satan being bound. He lost the war. He lost his absolute power over death. Christ defeated death, the power of Satan 2000 years ago. We are in the last age, the Messianic, Church age. There is no age other than eternity awaiting this world.
When you take your view and add the Jewish part of the despensation theory, it becomes an anti-christ. Christ did not come to establish some worldly Kingdom, surely nothing to do with the state of Isreal. Christ died to unite man, Jew and Greek and unite man with God. Read Eph 1 and you might get a better understanding of what actually constitutes Christianity. Tying Jewish nationalism (Zionism) to Christianity is a perversion of Christianity. You should read Matt without the man made blinders. Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews scattered for a reason.
It is called contending for the faith, the Truth as it was given by the Holy Spirit, not man's theories.
If you believe in Zionism and a worldly kingdom, then it would be destructive. Satan would relish your view and seems to be having a field day with the likes of the modern purveyors, such as Lindsey, Walvoord, Ryrie, Hagee, and LaHay who are noted for their particular theories on premillennialism and dispensationalism. The best of them is Jack Van Impe. One could not write a better mythological fiction story.
Depends on which Spirit you might be referring. You have not given any evidence that what you have stated has ever been the teaching of scripture. So far, it is a theory that has progressed and is still evolving for 200 years.
It appears also that you have no idea of why Christ came and what He accomplished for man and the world. It is YOUR view that believes there is no resurrection, not scripture. You still need Christ to come again and defeat death which you don't think has been accomplished. That happens to be the meaning of Satan being bound. He lost the war. He lost his absolute power over death. Christ defeated death, the power of Satan 2000 years ago. We are in the last age, the Messianic, Church age. There is no age other than eternity awaiting this world.
When you take your view and add the Jewish part of the despensation theory, it becomes an anti-christ. Christ did not come to establish some worldly Kingdom, surely nothing to do with the state of Isreal. Christ died to unite man, Jew and Greek and unite man with God. Read Eph 1 and you might get a better understanding of what actually constitutes Christianity. Tying Jewish nationalism (Zionism) to Christianity is a perversion of Christianity. You should read Matt without the man made blinders. Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews scattered for a reason.
It is called contending for the faith, the Truth as it was given by the Holy Spirit, not man's theories.
If you believe in Zionism and a worldly kingdom, then it would be destructive. Satan would relish your view and seems to be having a field day with the likes of the modern purveyors, such as Lindsey, Walvoord, Ryrie, Hagee, and LaHay who are noted for their particular theories on premillennialism and dispensationalism. The best of them is Jack Van Impe. One could not write a better mythological fiction story.
Assumption alert! You are assuming that God doesn't have any other powerful angels to perform this task. I'm sure that Michael the archangel could do the job. I'm sure that God has plenty of angels that are able to overpower Satan and cast him into the Abyss.
[/quote]Clearly, and irrefutably, we have the Messenger of Revelation being described in the very same manner as that of Yahweh![/quote]
There are many angels that are described in this manner that are not Yeshua. Again, you are assuming. Jesus is not an angel and should never be referred to as an angel. This is just weak attempt to support your position.
"For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” ?
"To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet” ?
Scripture is showing a distinction here between the Son of God and angels. Ergo, Jesus is not an angel.
* And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”
The angel above is not Jesus, but he is mighty.
* Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.
None of the above are Jesus
* After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.
None of these four angels are Jesus
* And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
None of these seven angels are Jesus
* Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar.
This angel is not Jesus
* The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss
This angel is not Jesus. By the way, notice that a key is required to open the Abyss at the fifth trumpet, just as a key is required to lock it back up after Satan is thrown in.
* Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”
None of these four are Jesus
* Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars.
* Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it"
This angel isn't Jesus, but he is described in the same manner. We know this isn't Jesus because he is swearing by him who lives for ever and ever, demonstrating that he is an angel.
* Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.
* A second angel followed and said, “ ‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’[SUP]a[/SUP] which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries
* A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.
None of the three angels above are Jesus
* I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[SUP][/SUP] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
This angel above is not Jesus. By the way, the designation "son of man" is not specific to Christ. For both Daniel and Ezekiel were both referred to as "son of man" along with others.
* Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.”
"Still another angel" would infer another heavenly being other than the Lord
* I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests.
My, my! These seven angels are dressed in clean, shining linen and have golden sashes, but none of them are the Lord Jesus.
* After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor.
My, My, My! This angel, who is not the Lord Jesus, has great authority, so much so that the earth will be illuminated by his splendor. Bu guess what? He's not the Lord Jesus.
* Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea
Uh oh! Another angel and this one is mighty also! But he also is not the Lord Jesus.
* And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God
This angel is also not the Lord Jesus and we know that because Jesus is the one previously mentioned as the One riding the white horse coming down out of heaven.
* And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
An unidentified angel who has the key to the Abyss, but is not the Lord Jesus. For Jesus was described just previously as coming out of heaven riding on a white horse and wearing robe dripped in blood. And on his robe and on his thigh is written "King of kings and Lord of lords." You'd think that if that angel that had the key to the Abyss was the Lord, John would have described him with those same characteristics, but he doesn't. "I saw and angel coming down out of heaven" would infer another being other than the rider on the white horse.
* It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates.
None of the twelve angels above are the Lord Jesus.
Where is the Lord Jesus in Revelation?
* and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. (see mount of transfiguration)
Huh! Jesus has a golden sash just like the seven angels who have the seven bowl judgments. According to your theology they must all be duplicates of Jesus then!
* At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne.
The One sitting on the throne above is God the Father. Look, he is said to have a rainbow over his head just like the angel in chapter 10 who raises his right hand to heaven and swears by him.
*Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.
God the Father again on the throne above
* Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders.
* He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
Jesus, as the Lamb, takes the scroll out of the right hand of the Father.
* I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Above we have Jesus returning to the earth at the end of the age, riding on a white horse, with a robe dipped in blood, with many crowns and a name written on him that no one knows but he himself, with eyes blazing like fire, who is called faithful and true. His name is the The Word of God.
P
Clearly, and irrefutably, we have the Messenger of Revelation being described in the very same manner as that of Yahweh![/quote]
There are many angels that are described in this manner that are not Yeshua. Again, you are assuming. Jesus is not an angel and should never be referred to as an angel. This is just weak attempt to support your position.
"For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” ?
"To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet” ?
Scripture is showing a distinction here between the Son of God and angels. Ergo, Jesus is not an angel.
* And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”
The angel above is not Jesus, but he is mighty.
* Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.
None of the above are Jesus
* After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.
None of these four angels are Jesus
* And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
None of these seven angels are Jesus
* Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar.
This angel is not Jesus
* The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss
This angel is not Jesus. By the way, notice that a key is required to open the Abyss at the fifth trumpet, just as a key is required to lock it back up after Satan is thrown in.
* Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”
None of these four are Jesus
* Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars.
* Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it"
This angel isn't Jesus, but he is described in the same manner. We know this isn't Jesus because he is swearing by him who lives for ever and ever, demonstrating that he is an angel.
* Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.
* A second angel followed and said, “ ‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’[SUP]a[/SUP] which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries
* A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.
None of the three angels above are Jesus
* I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[SUP][/SUP] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
This angel above is not Jesus. By the way, the designation "son of man" is not specific to Christ. For both Daniel and Ezekiel were both referred to as "son of man" along with others.
* Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.”
"Still another angel" would infer another heavenly being other than the Lord
* I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests.
My, my! These seven angels are dressed in clean, shining linen and have golden sashes, but none of them are the Lord Jesus.
* After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor.
My, My, My! This angel, who is not the Lord Jesus, has great authority, so much so that the earth will be illuminated by his splendor. Bu guess what? He's not the Lord Jesus.
* Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea
Uh oh! Another angel and this one is mighty also! But he also is not the Lord Jesus.
* And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God
This angel is also not the Lord Jesus and we know that because Jesus is the one previously mentioned as the One riding the white horse coming down out of heaven.
* And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
An unidentified angel who has the key to the Abyss, but is not the Lord Jesus. For Jesus was described just previously as coming out of heaven riding on a white horse and wearing robe dripped in blood. And on his robe and on his thigh is written "King of kings and Lord of lords." You'd think that if that angel that had the key to the Abyss was the Lord, John would have described him with those same characteristics, but he doesn't. "I saw and angel coming down out of heaven" would infer another being other than the rider on the white horse.
* It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates.
None of the twelve angels above are the Lord Jesus.
Where is the Lord Jesus in Revelation?
* and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. (see mount of transfiguration)
Huh! Jesus has a golden sash just like the seven angels who have the seven bowl judgments. According to your theology they must all be duplicates of Jesus then!
* At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne.
The One sitting on the throne above is God the Father. Look, he is said to have a rainbow over his head just like the angel in chapter 10 who raises his right hand to heaven and swears by him.
[/COLOR]*Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.
[/SIZE]
God the Father again on the throne above
* Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders.
[/FONT]* He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
Jesus, as the Lamb, takes the scroll out of the right hand of the Father.
* I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Above we have Jesus returning to the earth at the end of the age, riding on a white horse, with a robe dipped in blood, with many crowns and a name written on him that no one knows but he himself, with eyes blazing like fire, who is called faithful and true. His name is the The Word of God.[/QUOTE]
On this one bowman is correct.
That is not the only time Jesus is referred to as an angel.
There are many angels that are described in this manner that are not Yeshua. Again, you are assuming. Jesus is not an angel and should never be referred to as an angel. This is just weak attempt to support your position.
"For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” ?
"To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet” ?
Scripture is showing a distinction here between the Son of God and angels. Ergo, Jesus is not an angel.
* And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”
The angel above is not Jesus, but he is mighty.
* Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.
None of the above are Jesus
* After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.
None of these four angels are Jesus
* And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
None of these seven angels are Jesus
* Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar.
This angel is not Jesus
* The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss
This angel is not Jesus. By the way, notice that a key is required to open the Abyss at the fifth trumpet, just as a key is required to lock it back up after Satan is thrown in.
* Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”
None of these four are Jesus
* Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars.
* Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it"
This angel isn't Jesus, but he is described in the same manner. We know this isn't Jesus because he is swearing by him who lives for ever and ever, demonstrating that he is an angel.
* Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.
* A second angel followed and said, “ ‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’[SUP]a[/SUP] which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries
* A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.
None of the three angels above are Jesus
* I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[SUP][/SUP] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
This angel above is not Jesus. By the way, the designation "son of man" is not specific to Christ. For both Daniel and Ezekiel were both referred to as "son of man" along with others.
* Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.”
"Still another angel" would infer another heavenly being other than the Lord
* I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests.
My, my! These seven angels are dressed in clean, shining linen and have golden sashes, but none of them are the Lord Jesus.
* After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor.
My, My, My! This angel, who is not the Lord Jesus, has great authority, so much so that the earth will be illuminated by his splendor. Bu guess what? He's not the Lord Jesus.
* Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea
Uh oh! Another angel and this one is mighty also! But he also is not the Lord Jesus.
* And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God
This angel is also not the Lord Jesus and we know that because Jesus is the one previously mentioned as the One riding the white horse coming down out of heaven.
* And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
An unidentified angel who has the key to the Abyss, but is not the Lord Jesus. For Jesus was described just previously as coming out of heaven riding on a white horse and wearing robe dripped in blood. And on his robe and on his thigh is written "King of kings and Lord of lords." You'd think that if that angel that had the key to the Abyss was the Lord, John would have described him with those same characteristics, but he doesn't. "I saw and angel coming down out of heaven" would infer another being other than the rider on the white horse.
* It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates.
None of the twelve angels above are the Lord Jesus.
Where is the Lord Jesus in Revelation?
* and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. (see mount of transfiguration)
Huh! Jesus has a golden sash just like the seven angels who have the seven bowl judgments. According to your theology they must all be duplicates of Jesus then!
* At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne.
The One sitting on the throne above is God the Father. Look, he is said to have a rainbow over his head just like the angel in chapter 10 who raises his right hand to heaven and swears by him.
[/COLOR]*Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.
[/SIZE]
God the Father again on the throne above
* Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders.
[/FONT]* He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
Jesus, as the Lamb, takes the scroll out of the right hand of the Father.
* I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Above we have Jesus returning to the earth at the end of the age, riding on a white horse, with a robe dipped in blood, with many crowns and a name written on him that no one knows but he himself, with eyes blazing like fire, who is called faithful and true. His name is the The Word of God.[/QUOTE]
On this one bowman is correct.
That is not the only time Jesus is referred to as an angel.
On this one bowman is correct.
That is not the only time Jesus is referred to as an angel.[/QUOTE]
Please show me what is linking the angel that is coming down out of heaven to Christ who was just previously shown to be descending from heaven on a white horse wearing a white rob dipped in blood. What is there in Rev.20:1-2 that is revealing "I saw and angel" as being Christ? Jesus is never referred to as an angel. There are references to "the angel of the Lord" which means that they are angels by him.
"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. "
Where in the Scripture above is there any information that Jesus is that angel? Bowman says that only God is strong enough to bind Satan, which is a false assumption. God has other angels that are also mighty and high ranking as I demonstrated in my list. But the fact still remains that by reading the scripture above, there is nothing in it that would identify that angel as being Christ. If anything, if the angel was Jesus, John would said something like the rider on the white horse seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, etc., not "an angel".
Also, please provide scripture where Jesus is referred to as an angel and there has to be something in that links him as such. In other words, you can't just pick out a verse that mentions and angel in it without anything linking it to be Christ.
The term is properly rendered 'Messenger' NOT angel...and is merely one of 30+ epithets ascribed unto Jesus in the Book of Revelation.
Wrong.
Malek Yahweh IS God...this is an entire subject matter in, and of, itself.
Your really don't know your scriptures very well...
It follows the same exact verbiage as that of Rev 10.1, of which, applies to God The Son.
What you lamely attempted to do, was to lump mere angels, under command, into the same camp as the Messenger - who is The Son.
Not impressed...
Show me where in scripture states where Jesus is referred as an angel and there has to be a direct link showing that the messenger/angel being spoken of is referring to the Lord. By the way, the definition of Aggelos is, a messenger, angel, the majority of which is used in scripture to describe heavenly beings as messengers.
Oh, I know the scriptures very well thank you. The only reason that you say this is to discredit me and to an exalt yourself as knowledgeable. This is a common tactic for Amillennialists, that is, to attack the credibility of those who are speaking the truth. In your response above, you haven't proven anything. Your response is the equivalent of "I told you so".
Here is the scripture in Rev.10:1 that you quoted:
"Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars"
"another mighty angel" would infer another angel of common angels/messagers. This angel can't be Christ, as Jesus would not be referred to as "another angel". Also, the angel in question, is raising his hand and swearing by him who lives forever and ever, which means that this angel is lesser than the One by whom he is swearing by and therefore, he could not be Christ who is God. Again, there is nothing to link this angel as being Christ.
Regarding Christ being referred to as an Aggelos/angel, consider the following:
=================================
"For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son;today I have become your Father” ?
"To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”[SUP]g[/SUP] ?
"He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom"
==================================
The scriptures above are meant to show a distinction between Jesus as the Son of God and common angels (heavenly messengers). In other words, the scripture is saying, Jesus is not a common heavenly messenger. Your error is that when a heavenly being (angel) is described as wearing a golden sash, or has a face that shines like the sun, or has legs that look like polished bronze, or has a rainbow, because of these characteristics you make them out to be the Lord. But these are just angels with those same characteristics that God gave to them.
Here we have scriptural confirmation that the One God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush is actually The Messenger (angelos) of The Lord, The Second Person of The Trinity, The Son…
Mark 12.26
But concerning the dead, that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, as God spoke to him at the Bush, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?
Mark 12 informs the reader that God spoke to Moses from the burning bush.
Acts 7.30 - 39
And forty years being fulfilled to him, The Messenger (angelos) of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. And seeing, Moses marveled at the sight. And he coming up to look, a voice of the Lord came to him: "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Ex. 3:6, 15 But becoming trembly, Moses did not dare to look. And the Lord said to him, "Loosen the sandal from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground. I surely saw the affliction of My people in Egypt, and I have heard their groan, and I came down to pluck them out. And now, come, I will send you to" Egypt. Ex. 3:5, 7, 8a, 10a This Moses, whom they denied, saying, Who appointed you a ruler and a judge, this one God has sent as ruler and redeemer by the hand of the Messenger (angelos) who appeared to him in the Bush. This one led them out, having worked wonders and miraculous signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea, and forty years in the wilderness. This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, " The Lord your God will raise up a Prophet to you" "from your brothers, One like me." You shall hear Him. Deut. 18:15 This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Messenger (angelos) who spoke to him in Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living Words to give to us, to whom our fathers did not desire to be subject, but thrust him away, and turned their hearts back to Egypt,
Acts 7 informs the reader that The Messenger of The Lord appeared and spoke to Moses from the burning bush.
Thus…The Messenger of The Lord is God.
No.
Your knowledge of scriptures is very weak...at best.
Your constant recycling of your lame 'amil' polemic cannot change this fact.
Mark 12.26
But concerning the dead, that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, as God spoke to him at the Bush, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?
Mark 12 informs the reader that God spoke to Moses from the burning bush.
Acts 7.30 - 39
And forty years being fulfilled to him, The Messenger (angelos) of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. And seeing, Moses marveled at the sight. And he coming up to look, a voice of the Lord came to him: "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Ex. 3:6, 15 But becoming trembly, Moses did not dare to look. And the Lord said to him, "Loosen the sandal from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground. I surely saw the affliction of My people in Egypt, and I have heard their groan, and I came down to pluck them out. And now, come, I will send you to" Egypt. Ex. 3:5, 7, 8a, 10a This Moses, whom they denied, saying, Who appointed you a ruler and a judge, this one God has sent as ruler and redeemer by the hand of the Messenger (angelos) who appeared to him in the Bush. This one led them out, having worked wonders and miraculous signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea, and forty years in the wilderness. This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, " The Lord your God will raise up a Prophet to you" "from your brothers, One like me." You shall hear Him. Deut. 18:15 This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Messenger (angelos) who spoke to him in Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living Words to give to us, to whom our fathers did not desire to be subject, but thrust him away, and turned their hearts back to Egypt,
Acts 7 informs the reader that The Messenger of The Lord appeared and spoke to Moses from the burning bush.
Thus…The Messenger of The Lord is God.
No.
Your knowledge of scriptures is very weak...at best.
Your constant recycling of your lame 'amil' polemic cannot change this fact.
You are so TOTALLY WRONG ABOUT THAT 1K PERIOD that it is not even humorous.
HERE IS THE REAL PHYSICAL EVENT THAT WAS CLEARLY PROPHESIED, THAT WILL BE THE VERY BEGINNING OF THAT 1K PERIOD, WITH CHRIST LITERALLY ON THE THRONE OF DAVID IN JERUSALEM, THE 144,000 JEWS CONTINUING INTO THAT KINGDOM THAT IS THE EVERLASTING COVENANT THAT PROMISES THE JEWS WILL INHERIT THE LAND OF ISRAEL FOREVER, AND WE WILL BE IN OUR IMMORTAL BODIES REIGNING WITH HIM AS LITERAL PRIESTS IN THE TEMPLE:
Zechariah 14:4-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
HERE IS THE REAL PHYSICAL EVENT THAT WAS CLEARLY PROPHESIED, THAT WILL BE THE VERY BEGINNING OF THAT 1K PERIOD, WITH CHRIST LITERALLY ON THE THRONE OF DAVID IN JERUSALEM, THE 144,000 JEWS CONTINUING INTO THAT KINGDOM THAT IS THE EVERLASTING COVENANT THAT PROMISES THE JEWS WILL INHERIT THE LAND OF ISRAEL FOREVER, AND WE WILL BE IN OUR IMMORTAL BODIES REIGNING WITH HIM AS LITERAL PRIESTS IN THE TEMPLE:
Zechariah 14:4-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
VCO,
You cite a text that supports the theory as interpreted by most millennialists. However, if it is correct then that same teaching and understanding will have been believed and taught from the very beginning. Not only that, it would have been consistantly the same understanding over the last 2000 years.
So, where is the evidence that premillennialism has been the teaching of scripture from the beginning?
You cite a text that supports the theory as interpreted by most millennialists. However, if it is correct then that same teaching and understanding will have been believed and taught from the very beginning. Not only that, it would have been consistantly the same understanding over the last 2000 years.
So, where is the evidence that premillennialism has been the teaching of scripture from the beginning?