Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

  • Yes, Jesus died for a particular group of people and his atonement accomplishes their salvation.

    Votes: 14 46.7%
  • No, Jesus died for all men, without exception, and his atonement only makes salvation possible.

    Votes: 16 53.3%

  • Total voters
    30

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,786
445
83
He said he will stop responding to me, but continues and as I stated, he has a narcissistic disorder behavior and he should do a reseach on it.
We should not fail to consider others interpretations of the scriptures. and if we disagree, we should reveal our disagreement with scripture to back it up. All scriptures must harmonize, or we are not understanding the truths within them.

God did give mankind a free will to choose how he wants to live his life while he sojourns here on earth, and all of mankind choose not to seek God, Psalms 53:2-3. If God had not choose an elect portion of those that would not seek him, and had not told Christ to pay for their sins, there would not have been anyone that would have worshiped and praised him, and all of mankind would have gone to hell.

The fact that no one would seek him, made it necessary to choose an elect people and regenerate them to a spiritual life, Eph 2, and eternal deliverance, by his sovereign grace, without mankind's acceptance.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,689
1,372
113
No. Because it is not in the Bible. Jesus died for all men. Jesus is not willing that any should perish. Lets stop listening to Calvin and start listening to Jesus.
Yes he is not willing that any of the "all" perish. The key in understanding which "all" is in view it is found in the words; "as many as" .Not one more or one less.

As many as the father gave the Son. They alone can come because the father alone is drawing them .Of man own volition no man could come. Not one

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Romans3:10-11

Impossible to seek with no understanding.

The bible defines the elect as many as

Acts 13:48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Matthew 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

The horse before the cart .Free will!

Acts 2:39

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
 

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
Dec 2, 2019
525
79
28
info349479.wixsite.com
We should not fail to consider others interpretations of the scriptures. and if we disagree, we should reveal our disagreement with scripture to back it up. All scriptures must harmonize, or we are not understanding the truths within them.

God did give mankind a free will to choose how he wants to live his life while he sojourns here on earth, and all of mankind choose not to seek God, Psalms 53:2-3. If God had not choose an elect portion of those that would not seek him, and had not told Christ to pay for their sins, there would not have been anyone that would have worshiped and praised him, and all of mankind would have gone to hell.

The fact that no one would seek him, made it necessary to choose an elect people and regenerate them to a spiritual life, Eph 2, and eternal deliverance, by his sovereign grace, without mankind's acceptance.
 

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
Dec 2, 2019
525
79
28
info349479.wixsite.com
We should not fail to consider others interpretations of the scriptures. and if we disagree, we should reveal our disagreement with scripture to back it up. All scriptures must harmonize, or we are not understanding the truths within them.

God did give mankind a free will to choose how he wants to live his life while he sojourns here on earth, and all of mankind choose not to seek God, Psalms 53:2-3. If God had not choose an elect portion of those that would not seek him, and had not told Christ to pay for their sins, there would not have been anyone that would have worshiped and praised him, and all of mankind would have gone to hell.

The fact that no one would seek him, made it necessary to choose an elect people and regenerate them to a spiritual life, Eph 2, and eternal deliverance, by his sovereign grace, without mankind's acceptance.
______________________________

People can put their view on the table, but if it is not according to the Scripture it is then an interpretation of man. Many have been impressed with the elect doctrine that God elects to salvation and those who he did not elect will go to eternal damnation, in other words, God sent them to eternal damnation without a choice and if that is what you believer then I will make myself clear, it is not only a distorted view, but it is also a diabolical teaching.

Question to ask you, how do you know that you are an elect, or you are not sure?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,051
2,643
113
The fact that no one would seek him, made it necessary to choose an elect people and regenerate them to a spiritual life, Eph 2, and eternal deliverance, by his sovereign grace, without mankind's acceptance.
No, this is not a fact. No, this is not what Ephesians 2 says or teaches. Ephesisians speaks to those who are in the Church. The Church is indeed elect, chosen, and predestined for Heaven. God gave ALL an opportunity to join ( ie accept ), not just some. Lets post Ephesians 2 for all to see...

Ephesians 2
2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,786
445
83
You seem to lack understanding about what God wants. God wants men to choose Him. God does not want to force His Way down men's throats like you do. You need to find a way to clear up your mental blockage. I will pray that you see the Light before it is too late.

Acts 17
17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Jesus wants all men to seek Him today.
Acts 17:1, Paul was preaching to "a synagogue" (Strong's #4864=a christian church) of the Jews. These men that Paul was speaking to, were already regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They had a lack of knowledge of the full gospel. Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach to the "lost sheep" (regenerated children) of the house Jacob/Israel.

God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel, Gen 33:28. Jacob is representative of God's elect, Rom 9:11. There is the nation of Israel, and there is Jacob/Israel, which is all of the elect of God.

If we try to explain the things of the Spirit to the natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, it would fall on deaf ears, because the natural man thinks that the things of the Spirit is foolishness. Only those who have ears to hear will understand the things of the Spirit, and they are God's regenerated sheep. John 10:27-28.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,786
445
83
______________________________

People can put their view on the table, but if it is not according to the Scripture it is then an interpretation of man. Many have been impressed with the elect doctrine that God elects to salvation and those who he did not elect will go to eternal damnation, in other words, God sent them to eternal damnation without a choice and if that is what you believer then I will make myself clear, it is not only a distorted view, but it is also a diabolical teaching.

Question to ask you, how do you know that you are an elect, or you are not sure?
Evidently, you did not read Psalms 53:2-3, or if you did read it, you fail to understand it. God did give mankind a free choice to choose him, but mankind choose not to seek him.

Some bible students choose not to consider having all the scriptures to harmonize. If you disagree with the scriptures that I have given, then give me the scriptures that you think will refute my interpretation, and still harmonize with the scriptures that I have given you.

I feel very confident that I am one of God's elect, in the fact, that I do not fit the description of the natural in 1 Cor 2:14, that has not been regenerated and thinks that the things of the Spirit are foolishness.

I also feel confident that everyone participating on this forum is also of the elect of God.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,051
2,643
113
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Romans3:10-11

Impossible to seek with no understanding.
There is a very good reason why all these men have no understanding; they have closed their eyes and stopped their ears. If you would have posted a little context, all would see who all these men are. Remember the days of Noah. All were warned. All chose their own way. Lets show the people what manner of persons your pet verse is speaking about:

Romans 3
3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

All have sinned and come short, for sure. What is also for sure is that whosoever will may come. You motives really do perplex me.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,675
1,903
113
You seem to lack understanding about what God wants. God wants men to choose Him. God does not want to force His Way down men's throats like you do. You need to find a way to clear up your mental blockage. I will pray that you see the Light before it is too late.

Acts 17
17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Jesus wants all men to seek Him today.
The misunderstandings you have are:

1) Reformed theology doesn't claim God "forces" anyone..he changes the nature of the fallen man to cause them to freely desire Him.
2) You overestimate the ability for a fallen man to desire God, without a radical change in heart.
3) God does indeed declare all to come to repentance, but none will unless he regenerates them. It's the same thing with regards to
Noah, and the generation that rebelled against God and were drowned. Some are destined to destruction, and are vessels of
destruction.
4) They freely go to destruction, because they are slaves to sin and love their sin more than God. And, they will continue to do so
until they are born again.

I repeat: the fallen man requires a heart change, from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh, before he can produce faith and repentance. The free-willer claim that a man, with a heart of stone, can somehow dredge up faith and repentance from it, is incoherent.
This is a biblical teaching, whether you like it or not.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
----------------------

I decided to continue to respond to his post to show that he is distorted in his view, he God appear not to be the God of the Scriptures.

well that's the reason I respond

more people just read the posts than actually participate

Calvin did not preach the God we learn of in scripture. he created a god as mean and self serving as was he and since he thought it right to kill people who did not agree with him, it seems certain people who follow him also show disdain to others since actual murder is frowned upon

it really is their problem :)
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
There is a very good reason why all these men have no understanding; they have closed their eyes and stopped their ears. If you would have posted a little context, all would see who all these men are. Remember the days of Noah. All were warned. All chose their own way. Lets show the people what manner of persons your pet verse is speaking about:

Romans 3
3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

All have sinned and come short, for sure. What is also for sure is that whosoever will may come. You motives really do perplex me.

continually taking verses out of context

I don't know if garee is a Calvinist or not as his posts are confusing to say the least

however, taking one verse and creating doctrine is always wrong

also, people forget and some might not be aware, that the original manuscripts were not chopped up into verses and chapters. those were added on

so when you take a verse and use it, there is a great possibility you have misused it to create your own understanding and then state that is what scripture states. you probably know this but for the sake of those who do not

they throw away context in order to substantiate their unbiblical teachings

I am sorry that the Calvinist troller has made your thread a springboard for his Calvinist preaching

IMO, it should not be allowed
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,689
1,372
113
There is a very good reason why all these men have no understanding; they have closed their eyes and stopped their ears. If you would have posted a little context, all would see who all these men are. Remember the days of Noah. All were warned. All chose their own way. Lets show the people what manner of persons your pet verse is speaking about:

Romans 3
3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

All have sinned and come short, for sure. What is also for sure is that whosoever will may come. You motives really do perplex me.

Not sure what you meant by posted a little context? Did it have to do with the Romans 3 portion you offered?

No man can come (born again) of there own volition .Ephesians 2:8 emphasizes it. Not of our own work of faith but that of Christ labor of love. As a new creation we can come.

Just as we are informed in verses 10 and 11 of the Roman passage . In order to seek after him a person needs understanding coming from him . Marvel not, a man must be born again as the father draws them .
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,675
1,903
113
You seem to lack understanding about what God wants. God wants men to choose Him. God does not want to force His Way down men's throats like you do. You need to find a way to clear up your mental blockage. I will pray that you see the Light before it is too late.

Acts 17
17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Jesus wants all men to seek Him today.

Here's a question.

The memes above already point to it.

Did you cause your physical birth?

Yes/No?

If not, then how do you think you caused your spiritual birth, assuming you are born again?

Additionally, how did your stony heart produce faith and repentance?

When did you receive the heart of flesh, before or after your faith and repentance?

Again, I have already pointed out the problems with decisional regeneration. This is a doctrine promoted by Charles Finney and other religionists before and after him.

The claim is that a person's decision is what causes their regeneration. Regeneration involves receiving a heart of flesh, to replace the heart of stone. So, the implication is that the unsaved person, with a heart of stone, is capable of producing faith and repentance. This view does not make sense.

But, religionists will continue to teach it due to tradition.

The reality is this...the unsaved person is presented with the Gospel message. It makes sense to those who are elect, and does not make sense to those who are not elect. This gospel message is like a woodpile in the person's heart. It does nothing until the fire of regeneration is applied to it, if they are elect, then it bursts into flames and faith and repentance issue forth from it.

There is no way that election can be denied. It is God who chooses, and according to 1 Cor 1:26ff, he chooses people who aren't the smartest, mightiest, or most noble so that his strength can be displayed in them, to his glory.

Additionally, I have listed tons of Scriptures above which prove election. However, religionists will continue to deny this true, because of their traditions, largely coming from presuppositions related to Charles Finney and other free-willer teachers.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,051
2,643
113
I repeat: the fallen man requires a heart change, from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh,
...and because Jesus died for all of us, we all have equal opportunity to choose Him and to born again. We all can repent and come to Jesus, or we can choose to harden our hearts.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
No confusion .God did not create any to go to hell. If you are looking for something to blame death according to the letter of the law. It was not God choice that mankind experience the commandment of another voice . "You shall not surely die". Blame the spirit of error .the accuser of the brethren .Why blame God for fulfilling his promise?

No conflict at all .As many as the father gave the son they alone will come. Not one more or one less can come unless the father moves them to do His will as informed in Philippians 2:13-13 . He works in us to both will and do his good pleasure. He does the willful picking and breathing into new life. Why murmur ?


It would be like pickles in many pickle jars of various color. I will take all in blue jars .Not all the jars of every color . The key is the word as many as.

look tweedle dee

you have me confused with a Calvinist

I was responding to his false claims
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
...and because Jesus died for all of us, we all have equal opportunity to choose Him and to born again. We all can repent and come to Jesus, or we can choose to harden our hearts.
you can also harden your heart to the actual gospel while saying you are saved it would seem :cautious:
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,675
1,903
113
...and because Jesus died for all of us, we all have equal opportunity to choose Him and to born again. We all can repent and come to Jesus, or we can choose to harden our hearts.
OK, so is your claim that mankind comes to God of his own libertarian free will, and there are no barriers of any type that prevent it?

So, God does not call or elect anyone?

And, how do you define "equal opportunity"? Are those in a Muslim country equally exposed to the gospel message, and are they unbiased in any manner from accepting Christianity?

Obviously you know this is not true.

The idea that everyone has an equal opportunity for salvation is blatantly false. Do you think that the son of an Amorite priest at Moses' time had equal knowledge and exposure to Christ as a modern Christian?

And, are you claiming that Gentiles prior to Jesus had equal opportunity for salvation?

If so, why did the Church praise God for the fact that a door was opened to the Gentiles for salvation?

Like I have said before, folks form a Play-doh god that conforms to their expectations, and that is the determining factor in their theology, not what God actually says.

And the Bible teaches election. It teaches that man has a fallen nature that is hostile against him. It teaches that regeneration is required to remove the heart of stone, and to give them a heart of flesh, from which faith and repentance issues forth.

But, free-willers simply will not accept that regeneration is required before anyone can come to God in faith and repentance.

I suggest that folks read John 6, 10, Romans 6, 8-11, Ephesians 1-2 and determine what the Scriptures teach about man's fallen state.

In fact, read the whole book of Romans and study it carefully.

It will prove that free-willer theology is simply garbage.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,051
2,643
113
I repeat: the fallen man requires a heart change, from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh
That much is true.


before he can produce faith and repentance.
All men can choose to repent and accept at any time. This is the Gospel message. Miss this, and you have missed everything. Hell is reserved for anyone who teaches otherwise. Consider yourself warned.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,675
1,903
113
That much is true.




All men can choose to repent and accept at any time. This is the Gospel message. Miss this, and you have missed everything. Hell is reserved for anyone who teaches otherwise. Consider yourself warned.
I've already produced Scriptures proving otherwise.

John 6:44 says that no man can come to the Son, unless the Father draws him, and that person will be raised up. It also says that every single person who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.

This is simple bible teaching. All who are drawn by the Father come, and all of those are raised up.

Reformed theology is consistent with this. Free willer theology is not. You can "warn" all you want, but your theology is tradition, not the teaching of the Bible.

John 6:44-45
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me
(ESV)
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,051
2,643
113
you can also harden your heart to the actual gospel while saying you are saved it would seem :cautious:
When one does this and then tries to convince others to do likewise, he becomes a wolf in sheep's clothing. Not my words, but those of the Good Book.