Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

[SUNDOWNSAM]

I haven't claimed that God chooses some for eternal damnation.

He "passes over" them, just like the death angel passed over the Israelites who were covered by the blood of Christ.

Your problem is with God's election, and 1 Cor 1:26ff teaches clearly that election is biblical, and in fact he elects individuals with certain characteristics that are unappealing, so that his glory is shown more clearly.

This aligns perfectly with Romans 8-9. Free-willers simply deny what the Bible says.

Regarding you, I'm not even sure what lies or fabrications you claim I made. You aren't even sure Jesus is the Savior so I'm not sure how you become an authority figure on Christianity. You apparently aren't even saved yet, if you just "lean toward" Jesus.

Please identify the false statement I made, and I will address it.

However, you are trying to instruct others on Christianity. You remind me of my brother, who has a drinking problem and has lived with women, while trying to correct me for not observing the Saturday Sabbath, like the cult we were brought up in. My question to him was, why in the world are you trying to preach the Sabbath to me, when you get drunk and womanize? His answer: we're all sinners.

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So if you haven't claimed that God chooses some for eternal damnation, but you claim that he elect to eternal life, can you briefly without writing is book, how you define elect?

You stated, he "passes over" them, just like the death angel passed over the Israelites who were covered by the blood of Christ. We are not talking about the firstborns, we are talking about those who do not accept Yeshua, if they did not save accept Yeshua does that mean that God did not elect them, Yes or No? Do not elaborate, just give me a yes or no.

You said that I have a problem is with God's election, that is based on your false assumption that you think I am having a problem with God's election, just like you fabricated two lies in your mind, convincing yourself that I stated the actual lie that you fabricated when I never ever said such a statement. Just briefly define what election means to you biblically.


You don't know what lies you fabricated because you appear to have a narcissistic behavior disorder, never admitting a wrong. I don't you go back and read it again. Now you say that you don't think that I am even sure if Yeshua is the Savior, this goes to show that you have a problem with reading comprehension, I made that clear many times that Yeshua is the Savior, not to mention, that what is most important is to have a relationship with God in Yeshua.

Now you make the folloiwing statement... You apparently aren't even saved yet, if you just "lean toward" Jesus. On what bases you make this ignorant question? In addition, answer me the following... how do you know that you are a believer and on

Go back and read, until you prove to me that you did not make false statement, YOU ARE A LIAR, not only a liar, but one who likes to mock through assumptions.

Show me where in the Scriptures we are told to be Christians? Look at this, you are not only making false assumptions about me, but now you are telling everyone that your brother is an alcholic and has lived with women, while trying to correct you not observing the Saturday Sabbath. At least he realizes that the Saturday Sabbath is not done away with. Does he know that you are talking and posting about him on the internet? You must like to gossip, the more you open your mouth the more I am getting to know who you are and the type of person you are. Who else have you told about your brother? Yeshua gave an example, go sin no more and did not speak about what she committed.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Respectfully, I think that I have explained every one of the questions to you, But I will state them again. I am in agreement with you, that all who believe will be delivered eternally. I do not believe that Christ's atonement was an offering to man for man's acceptance, But was an offering to God for God's acceptance. If I was not one of the elect, I would be just like the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14, unable to discern the things of the Spirit and, therefore would not seek God. As far as "deliberately doing that which is evel in the sight of the LORD" Every born again child of God does evil in the sight of the Lord sometimes and is required to repent to regain fellowship with God. I'm sorry, but I can not say, yes or no, about Jeroboam, because given to our sinful nature, I can not determine whether he is of the elect or not.

About the atonement, we now that God provided the Lamb, his own Son, by Yeshua offering himself in the beginning I am basically saying the same thing you are saying, please read between lines.

You said, if you were not one of the elect you would be unable to discern the things of the the Spirit, therefore, would not seek God, but their are many religion out there that say the same thing, does this mean that they are saved?

You stated as far as "deliberately doing that which is evil in the sight of the LORD" Every born again child of God does evil in the sight of the Lord sometimes and is required to repent to regain fellowship with God. We are not talking about believers who sin against God and repent of the sin that they committed, we are talking about those who deliberately sin against God.

You cannot say yes or no, about Jeroboam, because given to our sinful nature? So, you cannot definitely say that those who died in the flood, who did that which was wicked in the sight of God, will enter eternal damnation?



youI can not determine whether he is of the elect or not. With this respond you gave me, you do not truly believe that


[/QUOTE]

 

[ForestGreenCook]

About the atonement, we now that God provided the Lamb, his own Son, by Yeshua offering himself in the beginning I am basically saying the same thing you are saying, please read between lines.

You said, if you were not one of the elect you would be unable to discern the things of the the Spirit, therefore, would not seek God, but their are many religion out there that say the same thing, does this mean that they are saved?

You stated as far as "deliberately doing that which is evil in the sight of the LORD" Every born again child of God does evil in the sight of the Lord sometimes and is required to repent to regain fellowship with God. We are not talking about believers who sin against God and repent of the sin that they committed, we are talking about those who deliberately sin against God.

You cannot say yes or no, about Jeroboam, because given to our sinful nature? So, you cannot definitely say that those who died in the flood, who did that which was wicked in the sight of God, will enter eternal damnation?



youI can not determine whether he is of the elect or not. With this respond you gave me, you do not truly believe that

[/QUOTE]
If a person is truthfully worshiping God, and is not doing it just for personal gain then I believe that they will be delivered eternally, whether they attend a church or not. Speaking for myself, when I commit a sin, I believe that I am being persuaded by Satan, but I am deliberately sinning, and I am assuming that is the way it is with everyone else. The scriptures that I present to you, and the statements I give you, I truly believe them, or I would not present them to you. I am not always accurate in the manner that I present them, but what I am trying to present I truly believe in.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

You stated... If a person is truthfully worshiping God, and is not doing it just for personal gain then I believe that they will be delivered eternally, whether they attend a church or not. So, are you saying this will apply to jehovah witnesses, mormons, and so on?

You stated, speaking of yourself, when you commit a sin, you believe that you are being persuaded by satan. Do you know that a person can put themselves in a position that can cause them to sin against God, in other words, they do not need a temptor, they are just driving by their own lust?

A person can deliberately sin, ignorantly sin, and sometimes are unaware that they sinned.

Forest, from your post I believe you are saved and would not doubt it and the reason you are saved is not because of discernment, but because the Scriptures clearly states and assures us that if we believe/receive Yeshua we shall be saved, which is clear from the word of God. What we are discussing is more of theology, which has nothing to do with salvation, like the words elect and chosen.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You stated... If a person is truthfully worshiping God, and is not doing it just for personal gain then I believe that they will be delivered eternally, whether they attend a church or not. So, are you saying this will apply to jehovah witnesses, mormons, and so on?

You stated, speaking of yourself, when you commit a sin, you believe that you are being persuaded by satan. Do you know that a person can put themselves in a position that can cause them to sin against God, in other words, they do not need a temptor, they are just driving by their own lust?

A person can deliberately sin, ignorantly sin, and sometimes are unaware that they sinned.

Forest, from your post I believe you are saved and would not doubt it and the reason you are saved is not because of discernment, but because the Scriptures clearly states and assures us that if we believe/receive Yeshua we shall be saved, which is clear from the word of God. What we are discussing is more of theology, which has nothing to do with salvation, like the words elect and chosen.

To your first question, Yes. The answer to your second question, I believe that can happen also, Yes I agree that a person can commit a sin unaware that he is doing it, but if he has been born of the Holy Spirit, it will prick his heart and make him to realize that he has sinned and bring a feeling of guilt to him. I truly believe that before we can understand the scriptures, or discern the things of the Spirit, that the Holy Spirit within us has to reveal it to us, and that it does not come by way of our own entelect. I learned that the hard way from my personal experience of 12 years thinking I could figure the scriptures out by my own entelect.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Own up to it! If God chooses some for salvation that AUTOMATICALLY makes it so He chose others NOT TO BE SAVED. By passing over them as you said.

I say AMEN to that! NOW WHAT?

The difference is that God does not "cause" them to be reprobate; they are by nature.

Causing them to be reprobate is more active in nature rather than passive.

For instance, I can say that God decreed me to wear black socks this morning, in the sense that he didn't stop me from choosing black socks, but it isn't the same thing as making me wear black socks.

God doesn't choose to regenerate the non-elect, therefore they continue along their natural path with no covering for their sins.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

-----------------------------
So if you haven't claimed that God chooses some for eternal damnation, but you claim that he elect to eternal life, can you briefly without writing is book, how you define elect?

You stated, he "passes over" them, just like the death angel passed over the Israelites who were covered by the blood of Christ. We are not talking about the firstborns, we are talking about those who do not accept Yeshua, if they did not save accept Yeshua does that mean that God did not elect them, Yes or No? Do not elaborate, just give me a yes or no.

Clearly, I used the example of the death angel passing over the Israelite firstborn to illustrate how God passes over the reprobate and does not save them. I'm not sure why there's an issue with your understanding in this regard. The firstborn Israelites were sealed with the blood of the lamb and therefore exempt from the death of the firstborn. The Egyptian firstborn took the brunt of God's punishment. So, the Egyptian firstborn are similar to the reprobate, and the Israelite firstborn are similar to the elect. The default was to be destroyed, and the Israelite firstborn were exempt from this by election. God didn't force them to fail to mark their doorposts actively, though. They simply failed to do so out of rebellion and unbelief. And, they weren't part of the elect anyways.

Show me were any non-Israelite was exempted from the death angel. Only the Israelites were exempt. The rest suffered the death of the firstborn. I don't see any non-Israelite who was commanded to apply the blood of the lamb to the doorpost of his home. I don't see any clue that they knew about the ceremony or observed the Passover.

It's pretty amazing that free-willers are so blind that they cannot see the election of God in the OT all throughout, and especially in the Exodus account.

And, again, do not define how I am allowed to respond to your claims. You do not dictate the terms of engagement with me.

You said that I have a problem is with God's election, that is based on your false assumption that you think I am having a problem with God's election, just like you fabricated two lies in your mind, convincing yourself that I stated the actual lie that you fabricated when I never ever said such a statement. Just briefly define what election means to you biblically.

Didn't you read the initial portion of the thread? Do you know what election means? Election is marking out a person for salvation. God has marked out those who will be saved, and they are called the elect. He then calls them at the appropriate time, presents them with the gospel, regenerates them and they respond in faith and repentance.

He chooses, weak, despised individuals in general, so that he can make his glory shown more obviously through them. Read 1 Cor 1:26ff.

The elect are not chosen because of their foreseen faith. That was the basic issue addressed by Reformed teachers...their election is not predicated on advance knowledge of their faith decision, but is due to God loving them from the foundation of the earth. This is the actual definition of foreknowledge from a biblical sense (see Jer 1:5 for only one example of this).
You don't know what lies you fabricated because you appear to have a narcissistic behavior disorder, never admitting a wrong. I don't you go back and read it again. Now you say that you don't think that I am even sure if Yeshua is the Savior, this goes to show that you have a problem with reading comprehension, I made that clear many times that Yeshua is the Savior, not to mention, that what is most important is to have a relationship with God in Yeshua.

Have you placed your faith for salvation in Jesus, and the sufficiency of his atoning sacrifice? Has God given you a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone? Do you realize that your heart is deceitfully wicked?

Now you make the folloiwing statement... You apparently aren't even saved yet, if you just "lean toward" Jesus. On what bases you make this ignorant question? In addition, answer me the following... how do you know that you are a believer and on

Go back and read, until you prove to me that you did not make false statement, YOU ARE A LIAR, not only a liar, but one who likes to mock through assumptions.

I have asked you to identify the false statements I have made. I have no clue what you are talking about. I know I am a believer, because I have placed my faith in Christ and his atoning sacrifice, and rely on his righteousness, not my own.

Show me where in the Scriptures we are told to be Christians? Look at this, you are not only making false assumptions about me, but now you are telling everyone that your brother is an alcholic and has lived with women, while trying to correct you not observing the Saturday Sabbath. At least he realizes that the Saturday Sabbath is not done away with. Does he know that you are talking and posting about him on the internet? You must like to gossip, the more you open your mouth the more I am getting to know who you are and the type of person you are. Who else have you told about your brother? Yeshua gave an example, go sin no more and did not speak about what she committed.

Who is she? I am not going to go into a detailed discussion on the Sabbath, however, I was a former Sabbathkeeper. The Mosaic Covenant does not exist anymore, and neither do the signs (physical circumcision and the Sabbath).

Additionally, no one knows my brother here. If I use a nameless person as an example, it is not gossip. Additionally, my account is accurate.

By the way, using Yeshua does not give you credibility with me so you're wasting your time.

Firstly, you don't dictate the terms of my responses. I don't know what makes you think you define how anyone on this forum responds to anything.

Secondly, I have already described the difference between my position and double predestination. God doesn't have to do anything to cause mankind, in rebellion against him, to reject Him and to fail to accept Christ. If he doesn't regenerate a person, then they will proceed along the path of destruction.

And, he only regenerates the elect. Unregenerate mankind has a heart of stone, and he needs a heart of flesh to respond in faith and repentance. God enables this response.

By the way, I highly suspect you have mental problems, so I will not engage you further, but I would ask that you identify where you think that I made false statements regarding you. Did you say that you were "leaning toward Jesus" or not?

Perhaps you don't have a very good command of English and this is the source of the misunderstanding.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

This might explain some of the ideas that are behind the criticisms being leveled.

I do not believe in equal ultimacy.

Do I believe any of the non-elect will be saved? NO.

Why?

Because they need a heart of flesh in order to respond in faith and repentance, and they only receive that if God chooses to regenerate them. And, he only regenerates the elect.

Do I believe God causes them to continue in their trajectory toward damnation? No. He doesn't cause them to continue in their trajectory toward damnation. They continue on this path because they have a heart of stone that is in rebellion against God.

The free-willer attempts to evade these truths are comical. It is plainly what Romans 9 is talking about.

If people have issues with it, they have issues with the Bible, and not me.

What is equal ultimacy and is it biblical?
by Matt Slick
1/30/2017
Equal ultimacy is the position that God is equally active in causing the salvation of the elect as He is involved in causing the damnation of the reprobate. This is mainly an issue in Reformed Theology (also known as Calvinism). The elect are those people who were chosen by God for salvation before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-5). The reprobate are those who God did not choose to be saved and will, therefore, end up in hell. The question is whether or not God intervenes equally to save by granting faith (Phil. 1:29; John 6:28-29) and also intervenes to cause people not to believe and be damned. This has also been called double predestination (though there are differing views on the definition of double predestination). Equal ultimacy is not biblical. Let me explain why.

1. Equal ultimacy would imply that God is actively involved in causing people to sin in order to bring about their damnation.
2. It would imply that the effect of sin upon a person is not complete and total and that the unregenerate are able to freely choose to receive Christ as Savior.
3. It would imply that in order for someone to be damned, God must, to some extent, intervene and stop individuals from believing.

Though God works all things after the councel of his will (Eph. 1:11), He does not actively cause people to sin and stop them from believing. We sin because of our inherent inclination to rebel against God, and its natural result is unbelief. Please consider the following Scriptures that the describe the condition of fallen man.

• Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; Who can understand it?"
• Ephesians 2:3, "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."
• Romans 3:10–12, "as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”"
• Galatians 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
• Titus 3:3, "For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another."

If the condition of the fallen is that he has a desperately wicked heart, is by nature a child of wrath, does not seek for God, does no good, is shut up under sin, and is enslaved to various lusts, then it is not necessary for God to intervene in order to bring about their damnation. He is not active in causing their damnation. Instead, all God would have to do is leave them alone and let them go their natural way.
Therefore, in the Reformed perspective, equal ultimacy is not true. It is not biblical. God does not cause anyone to sin, nor does He cause them not to receive Christ, nor does He cause them not to believe. Instead, He lets them go their natural way which is in rebellion and denial of God. He simply does not intervene to save them.
In the context of Reformed theology, God intervenes to save the elect, But He does not intervene to damn the reprobate. God would predestine people to salvation and thereby actively save them (Acts 13:48; John 1:13), but He does not predestine people to damnation and actively prevent them from believing and also causing them to sin by rejecting Him.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

To your first question, Yes. The answer to your second question, I believe that can happen also, Yes I agree that a person can commit a sin unaware that he is doing it, but if he has been born of the Holy Spirit, it will prick his heart and make him to realize that he has sinned and bring a feeling of guilt to him. I truly believe that before we can understand the scriptures, or discern the things of the Spirit, that the Holy Spirit within us has to reveal it to us, and that it does not come by way of our own entelect. I learned that the hard way from my personal experience of 12 years thinking I could figure the scriptures out by my own entelect.

For you to answer yes to the first question than you do not know the diabolic doctrine of the jehovah witnesses and mormons. jehovah witnesses say that Christ was an angel that was created and not worthy to be worship and the the mormons says that Christ and satan were brothers, not to mention that both have distorted the Scriptures, so you are okay with that?

I mentioned nothing about convictions, I am saying that a person does not need a tempter to fall into sin, they could be driven by their own lust. Eve was tempted, but Adam deliberately took thereof.

The Spirit of God enlightens our mind with an understanding of the truth of God's word, in other words what God made clear when he first spoke, and the Spirit of God teaches us and leads us to walk right before God as we read the word of God

Forest, the correct spelling is intellect not entelect, but I understood what you were saying which is why I did not make a deal about that, but you can continue spelling it that way, one day I will spell it the say way to remind me of our conversations. In addition, we all make mistakes in spelling.

 

[Jackson123]

I believe God invite every body to go to heaven but not every body accept a His invitation

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

In respond to your post...

In the way you write I can see the type of person you are!

Didn't you say in the past that it is not man that makes a decision to serve God, but God chooses, yes or no? By the way, Man is born again when he makes that decision which you appear to disagree with.

You stated that God only regenerates the elect. This statement appears to say, that God chooses, meaning man has not choice, but in the next second sentence you appear to be saying that man respond. Which is it?

The difference between us, I called you out and you would not respond because you cannot truthfully answer and it is difficult for you to admit you are wrong, I highly respond those who can admit that are wrong, it makes them a better person. I have learned this lesson, and I am 64 and still learning. It has nothing to do with a command of English, I understood what you wrote, this has to do the way you are writing that is in question.

See, people like you suspect because it is difficult for a person with a narcissistic behavior order to admit they are wrong, which is why, instead of responding accordingly they get on the defense trying to justify themselves by attacking, fabricating lies that were not made and trying to belittle the people that they disagree with. So, before making such a remark of a mental problem examine yourself with the following questions... Do you have trouble admitting a wrong, when discussing a topic is everyone wrong and you are right, do you have problems yielding to a view that is correct but won't because you would have to admit you were wrong, do you have problems admitting that you said something that you said you did not say? I can continue.

Go back and read some of my post then you will see, I will not do your homework, I was clear, others saw it, but you deliberately blind yourself to your ignorance.

To answer your question... God provided a Lamb on the cross who willingly gave his life to atone for our sins and if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all our unrighteousness. God through the Spirit of God draws us to the cross, he quickens the soul to respond, but we decide whether we serve or not. If one decides to serve is because he yielded to the truth of God's word, that moment is the act of believing because he accepted God's atonement on the cross and as many as believe in him to them gave he the power to become sons of God. Though the Ten Commandments are not done away with and many things still have to be fulfilled, my relationship is not with the law, for no man can be justified, nor be made God's righteousness, nor can be saved through the law, one is saved by grace alone through faith. My relationship is with God in Yeshua, to know Yeshua is to know God the Father. We walk by faith seeking for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and as we walk after the Spirit the law of righteousness will be fulfilled. My trust is in God, the Spirit of God teaches, leads me to all truth and strengthens, and my walk is with Yeshua. To sum it up, my relationship is with God in Yeshua. What I wrote does it sound like a christian or a believer? I say christian because everyone calls themselves christians, don't day? Don't bother answering because you call yourself a christian.
You stated that you will not engage with me further, something I told you in the past to not respond to me anymore and you still do.

Did you go to your brother and apologize for what you said about him?

By the way, I just noticed that you responded with blue ink on one of my post, do you want me to respond to it or you rather I don't being that you had it? But I will quickly comment on your definition of election... You stated that election is marking out a person for salvation and if one grammatically construes your statement you are literally stating that if a person enters eternal damnation is because God did not mark him for salvation, meaning God condemn him at his own will and not give man the opportunity to repent. I will not ask you the question is that what you believe, but will make a statement, that is what you believe, but you will deliberately through your ignorance blind yourself to what is truly being stated.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

I believe God invite every body to go to heaven but not every body accept a His invitation

You are certainly correct, God draws man to the cross but man makes the decision, just like when Yeshua was put on the cross some believed who he was and some didn't and all along while on earth ministering he was telling them who he was before being put on the cross and some believed and some didn't.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

In respond to your post...

In the way you write I can see the type of person you are!

Didn't you say in the past that it is not man that makes a decision to serve God, but God chooses, yes or no? By the way, Man is born again when he makes that decision which you appear to disagree with.

You stated that God only regenerates the elect. This statement appears to say, that God chooses, meaning man has not choice, but in the next second sentence you appear to be saying that man respond. Which is it?

The difference between us, I called you out and you would not respond because you cannot truthfully answer and it is difficult for you to admit you are wrong, I highly respond those who can admit that are wrong, it makes them a better person. I have learned this lesson, and I am 64 and still learning. It has nothing to do with a command of English, I understood what you wrote, this has to do the way you are writing that is in question.

See, people like you suspect because it is difficult for a person with a narcissistic behavior order to admit they are wrong, which is why, instead of responding accordingly they get on the defense trying to justify themselves by attacking, fabricating lies that were not made and trying to belittle the people that they disagree with. So, before making such a remark of a mental problem examine yourself with the following questions... Do you have trouble admitting a wrong, when discussing a topic is everyone wrong and you are right, do you have problems yielding to a view that is correct but won't because you would have to admit you were wrong, do you have problems admitting that you said something that you said you did not say? I can continue.

Go back and read some of my post then you will see, I will not do your homework, I was clear, others saw it, but you deliberately blind yourself to your ignorance.

To answer your question... God provided a Lamb on the cross who willingly gave his life to atone for our sins and if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all our unrighteousness. God through the Spirit of God draws us to the cross, he quickens the soul to respond, but we decide whether we serve or not. If one decides to serve is because he yielded to the truth of God's word, that moment is the act of believing because he accepted God's atonement on the cross and as many as believe in him to them gave he the power to become sons of God. Though the Ten Commandments are not done away with and many things still have to be fulfilled, my relationship is not with the law, for no man can be justified, nor be made God's righteousness, nor can be saved through the law, one is saved by grace alone through faith. My relationship is with God in Yeshua, to know Yeshua is to know God the Father. We walk by faith seeking for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and as we walk after the Spirit the law of righteousness will be fulfilled. My trust is in God, the Spirit of God teaches, leads me to all truth and strengthens, and my walk is with Yeshua. To sum it up, my relationship is with God in Yeshua. What I wrote does it sound like a christian or a believer? I say christian because everyone calls themselves christians, don't day? Don't bother answering because you call yourself a christian.
You stated that you will not engage with me further, something I told you in the past to not respond to me anymore and you still do.

Did you go to your brother and apologize for what you said about him?

By the way, I just noticed that you responded with blue ink on one of my post, do you want me to respond to it or you rather I don't being that you had it? But I will quickly comment on your definition of election... You stated that election is marking out a person for salvation and if one grammatically construes your statement you are literally stating that if a person enters eternal damnation is because God did not mark him for salvation, meaning God condemn him at his own will and not give man the opportunity to repent. I will not ask you the question is that what you believe, but will make a statement, that is what you believe, but you will deliberately through your ignorance blind yourself to what is truly being stated.

-----------

Correction... I highly respect (not respond), Seek first (not for)

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Correction... I highly respect (not respond), Seek first (not for)

Flint321, to my recollection, I told you that unitedwithchrist would not admit to the lies that he fabricated and that is because he cannot admit to a wrong and admitting to fabricated lies no one would take him serious. He is just babbling his mouth and deliberately tries to belittle those who asks him questions or make statements that he cannot respond to.

I am not asking for him to apologize to me, I need no apologies, he needs to admit the lies that he fabricated and ask God to forgive him. Not to mention, he needs to apologize to his brother, how could a person talk bad about his own brother, putting him down like he is trash. He forgets that we were trash, but God did not look at us that as trash and the death of Yeshua on the cross substantiates this statement.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

For you to answer yes to the first question than you do not know the diabolic doctrine of the jehovah witnesses and mormons. jehovah witnesses say that Christ was an angel that was created and not worthy to be worship and the the mormons says that Christ and satan were brothers, not to mention that both have distorted the Scriptures, so you are okay with that?

I mentioned nothing about convictions, I am saying that a person does not need a tempter to fall into sin, they could be driven by their own lust. Eve was tempted, but Adam deliberately took thereof.

The Spirit of God enlightens our mind with an understanding of the truth of God's word, in other words what God made clear when he first spoke, and the Spirit of God teaches us and leads us to walk right before God as we read the word of God

Forest, the correct spelling is intellect not entelect, but I understood what you were saying which is why I did not make a deal about that, but you can continue spelling it that way, one day I will spell it the say way to remind me of our conversations. In addition, we all make mistakes in spelling.

I truly am among the world's worst spellers. I have nine other siblings and they are the same way, two of them being college graduates. It must be in our genetics. My wife is usually sitting at her computer right beside me, and she is my dictionary. I do believe that the scriptures teach that man, by his nature is terribly depraved, and that nature stays with us after we have been born again, which hinders us very much in our attempt to walk in the Spirit. Because of this, it makes it very hard to tell the difference in the elect and those that are not. This is why I hesitate to say someone is not of the elect. I just don't know. I agree that a man can be driven by their own lust to sin, without the help of a tempter. I, also, agree with you on the way that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit works within us, He is the revelator. Without his revelation we would understand nothing spiritually. I am not up to understanding the many different doctrinal beliefs, because I do not read other men's interpretations of the scriptures, because I believe scripture proves scripture, by the revelation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and they must all harmonize. Most of the people on this forum claim that I am a Calvinist, but I have never read his writings.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You are certainly correct, God draws man to the cross but man makes the decision, just like when Yeshua was put on the cross some believed who he was and some didn't and all along while on earth ministering he was telling them who he was before being put on the cross and some believed and some didn't.

Pardon me for interrupting in your conversation with Jackson, but I would like to insert a thought. UnitedwithChrist and I do not agree with our interpretation of the scriptures, but I agree with some of what he believes. You and I do not agree with our interpretation of the scriptures, but I agree with some of what you believe. But that is alright, it has been that way ever since Jesus taught his doctrine. We all three do believe the same on the fact that; The Holy Spirit within us will reveal the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

In respond to your post...

In the way you write I can see the type of person you are!

Didn't you say in the past that it is not man that makes a decision to serve God, but God chooses, yes or no? By the way, Man is born again when he makes that decision which you appear to disagree with.

You stated that God only regenerates the elect. This statement appears to say, that God chooses, meaning man has not choice, but in the next second sentence you appear to be saying that man respond. Which is it?

The difference between us, I called you out and you would not respond because you cannot truthfully answer and it is difficult for you to admit you are wrong, I highly respond those who can admit that are wrong, it makes them a better person. I have learned this lesson, and I am 64 and still learning. It has nothing to do with a command of English, I understood what you wrote, this has to do the way you are writing that is in question.

See, people like you suspect because it is difficult for a person with a narcissistic behavior order to admit they are wrong, which is why, instead of responding accordingly they get on the defense trying to justify themselves by attacking, fabricating lies that were not made and trying to belittle the people that they disagree with. So, before making such a remark of a mental problem examine yourself with the following questions... Do you have trouble admitting a wrong, when discussing a topic is everyone wrong and you are right, do you have problems yielding to a view that is correct but won't because you would have to admit you were wrong, do you have problems admitting that you said something that you said you did not say? I can continue.

Go back and read some of my post then you will see, I will not do your homework, I was clear, others saw it, but you deliberately blind yourself to your ignorance.

To answer your question... God provided a Lamb on the cross who willingly gave his life to atone for our sins and if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all our unrighteousness. God through the Spirit of God draws us to the cross, he quickens the soul to respond, but we decide whether we serve or not. If one decides to serve is because he yielded to the truth of God's word, that moment is the act of believing because he accepted God's atonement on the cross and as many as believe in him to them gave he the power to become sons of God. Though the Ten Commandments are not done away with and many things still have to be fulfilled, my relationship is not with the law, for no man can be justified, nor be made God's righteousness, nor can be saved through the law, one is saved by grace alone through faith. My relationship is with God in Yeshua, to know Yeshua is to know God the Father. We walk by faith seeking for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and as we walk after the Spirit the law of righteousness will be fulfilled. My trust is in God, the Spirit of God teaches, leads me to all truth and strengthens, and my walk is with Yeshua. To sum it up, my relationship is with God in Yeshua. What I wrote does it sound like a christian or a believer? I say christian because everyone calls themselves christians, don't day? Don't bother answering because you call yourself a christian.
You stated that you will not engage with me further, something I told you in the past to not respond to me anymore and you still do.

Did you go to your brother and apologize for what you said about him?

By the way, I just noticed that you responded with blue ink on one of my post, do you want me to respond to it or you rather I don't being that you had it? But I will quickly comment on your definition of election... You stated that election is marking out a person for salvation and if one grammatically construes your statement you are literally stating that if a person enters eternal damnation is because God did not mark him for salvation, meaning God condemn him at his own will and not give man the opportunity to repent. I will not ask you the question is that what you believe, but will make a statement, that is what you believe, but you will deliberately through your ignorance blind yourself to what is truly being stated.

First, get a dictionary and see what it means to be "quickened". It means to be made alive, which is the same thing as being regenerated. If you are claiming that to be quickened is some in-between state between death and life, you are mistaken. That's the common free-willer claim.

To be quickened means to be made alive, which is the same thing as being regenerated.

And, yes, my position is that God has marked out certain individuals for salvation. This is what election means. Furthermore, this election was not based on any merits that they possessed beforehand.

If someone isn't elected, they will suffer eternal damnation because they will choose, in accordance to their fallen nature and their slavery to sin, to pursue wickedness and not a relationship with God.

This is simply what Scripture teaches.

Well, the free-willer cries, that ain't right! My response is, you aren't God and aren't capable of deciding right from wrong, and are not the judge. God is the judge, and you do not judge him.

The biggest problem with the free-willer isn't a lack of clarity of Scriptures; it is the fact that they reject what Scripture says, and twist it around to their own theology. They decide what is right and wrong, and declare that God must decide things in according to their carnal way of thinking. They create an idol-god that conforms to their expectations.

I suggest carefully reading Romans 9 without your free-willer glasses on. Same with John 6, 8, 10, Ephesians 1, and the entire Bible.

God drown all of mankind at the time of Noah, including children. God commanded the Israelites to wipe out entire nations, including the children. God punished entire families for the the decision of their head (Korah, Dathan, Abiram, Achan).

Mankind is already under condemnation due to Adam's sin. Free-willers often claim that they are a fresh Adam, and they decide their own fate, because "this ain't fair". This is just one more exhibition of the play-doh theology that I mention in my signature.

Regarding your testimony statement, it sounds legit to me but you weren't so clear in the past. You made a remark like you were "leaning toward Jesus" as if you were still in the process of deciding whether to place your faith in him or not.

Saying the testimony statement sounds legit isn't the same as saying you understand Scripture well enough to be instructing others though. It sounds like a typical free-willer testimony.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

I truly am among the world's worst spellers. I have nine other siblings and they are the same way, two of them being college graduates. It must be in our genetics. My wife is usually sitting at her computer right beside me, and she is my dictionary. I do believe that the scriptures teach that man, by his nature is terribly depraved, and that nature stays with us after we have been born again, which hinders us very much in our attempt to walk in the Spirit. Because of this, it makes it very hard to tell the difference in the elect and those that are not. This is why I hesitate to say someone is not of the elect. I just don't know. I agree that a man can be driven by their own lust to sin, without the help of a tempter. I, also, agree with you on the way that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit works within us, He is the revelator. Without his revelation we would understand nothing spiritually. I am not up to understanding the many different doctrinal beliefs, because I do not read other men's interpretations of the scriptures, because I believe scripture proves scripture, by the revelation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and they must all harmonize. Most of the people on this forum claim that I am a Calvinist, but I have never read his writings.

Your statement that you do not read other men's interpretations of the scriptures, because you believe scripture proves scripture, you are correct and I will put it this way... The Spirit of God enlightens the mind with an understanding of the truth of God's word, in other words, what God made clear when he first spoke. I always said, in one goes to the Scriptures trying to interpret the word of God they will distort the word of God, not to mention, if one goes into the Scriptures trying to interpret the word of God then their God was not clear when he first spoke.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Pardon me for interrupting in your conversation with Jackson, but I would like to insert a thought. UnitedwithChrist and I do not agree with our interpretation of the scriptures, but I agree with some of what he believes. You and I do not agree with our interpretation of the scriptures, but I agree with some of what you believe. But that is alright, it has been that way ever since Jesus taught his doctrine. We all three do believe the same on the fact that; The Holy Spirit within us will reveal the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught.

The problem I have with unitedwithchrist, he appears to be a narcissistic person and you can see it in the way he responds, he is always right and loves to belittle others, calling them names, fabricating lies and I can witness to that, not to mention, he spoke something he should not have about his own brother.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Your statement that you do not read other men's interpretations of the scriptures, because you believe scripture proves scripture, you are correct and I will put it this way... The Spirit of God enlightens the mind with an understanding of the truth of God's word, in other words, what God made clear when he first spoke. I always said, in one goes to the Scriptures trying to interpret the word of God they will distort the word of God, not to mention, if one goes into the Scriptures trying to interpret the word of God then their God was not clear when he first spoke.

I think that I am understanding you right. If you are saying that we must go to the scriptures to gain a knowledge of the gospel, but not by our own understanding, without the revelation of the Holy Spirit, and if that is it, I agree with you.