Is the Great Commission irrelevant for the church now?

Guojing · May 12, 2019

Biology has established that the mother does not provide the blood for the baby. That is why your blood group is the same as your Father, but may differ from your mother. Jesus blood came from God himself.

Just think properly, if what you say is true, then Jesus could not have redeemed us by shedding sinful blood on the cross.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. (Hebrews 9:22)

PS · May 12, 2019

Guojing said:

Please do not bring gender into it. The blood that Jesus shed was the blood of mankind or if you prefer, humankind. God the Father who is spirit does not have blood.

Absolutely · May 12, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

Ok,several things.
1) the ones taken and ones left is " half are taken,half are left."
2) Jesus gives the same division a few sentences later in the rapture of the 5 wise,the bride,vs 5 foolish saved undefiled christians (virgins)
3) all those settings of "one taken..." are peacetime.
4) they are not taken to judgement. Most just assume that. It does not say or imply judgment.
5) in order to make it something other than the rapture,we inadvertantly need to place the unrighteous in bed ("2 shall be in a bed...."),with righteous.
5) the jews (that listen and obey) are ushered away during the gt to petra or some safe place.
Those staying, either take the mark or die.
So,when the gt closes,most of earths inhabitants have the mark.
6) rev 14 has 3 harvests. 2 of them appear Jewish. Maybe all three.
144k,ripe fruit,rotten fruit

Your interpretetion is deep and interesting,very interesting.

Is it private,or can you provide a link to some site where i might get insight?

Absolutely · May 12, 2019

PS said:

Careful my friend.
He shed his blood as the God man.
His blood is a bit of a mystery,in that he was concieved of the Holy Ghost.

IOW, He had different blood,but human blood nonetheless.

His "father "was both of heaven and judah.
I can not with my mind fathom the depths of his blood makeup.

His blood crossed into another dimension,and still remained human.

Just my opinion

PS · May 12, 2019

Absolutely said:

Careful my friend.
He shed his blood as the God man.
His blood is a bit of a mystery,in that he was concieved of the Holy Ghost.

IOW, He had different blood,but human blood nonetheless.

His "father "was both of heaven and judah.
I can not with my mind fathom the depths of his blood makeup.

His blood crossed into another dimension,and still remained human.

Just my opinion

I do not believe the Father who is spirit has blood.

PS · May 12, 2019

I do however believe the creator God can do all things.

CS1 · May 12, 2019

Guojing said:

actually, I did. And I used the word of god too. Not allegorizing or eliciting scriptures to make a biblical point of being superior to all others.

You asked"

Believe that Jesus is the promised messiah and king? I said HE Jesus has many titles and HE is all of them

Or

Believe that Jesus died for your sins, was buried, and rose on the 3rd day for your justification? Yes I do

Do I need to believe in both? Would either one be sufficient? Yes we are to believe everything that Jesus said HE is and what the word says HE is.

Do I also need to get water baptized to confirm the salvation? What happen if I don’t? Am I still saved? Baptism is what we are told to do after being saved, the act itself does not save. If you do not get Baptized after known you are to be baptized I would call that disobeying what we are told, instructed to do by the Lord Jesus himself. Does that mean if one is saved and then dies before he has the opportunity to be baptized is not saved? I would say no, they are saved.

I hope that was clear for you. Your questions are founded in either or, Jesus is the Messiah, Jesus is a King and Jesus is the Lord. And HE is God. The second person of the Trinity.

Absolutely · May 12, 2019

PS said:

Neither do i

oldethennew · May 12, 2019

this is a pretty 'basic-concept' - 'that which is Spirit is Spirit, and that which is flesh is flesh' -
BUT,
when God chooses to manifest Himself in flesh and bone', hello, He surely does...

what's going on here???

TheDivineWatermark · May 12, 2019

Absolutely said:

If I grasp your question, yeah, I used to have (in my old computer that crashed) a list of some 40-50 [relatively well-known, and respected] scholars who view "the beginning of birth pangs" to be equivalent to the "seals" of Rev6 and that these are all "future" (WITHIN the trib; Seal #1 kicking off the trib years), so that everything that follows in the text [in Matt24] comes after that (in the time-line), meaning, NONE of the Olivet Discourse covers the SUBJECT of our Rapture.

Now, I don't remember any offhand precisely, but I seem to recall (

) that Dr Stanley Toussaint taught [/believed] such ^, for one (I don't recall specific details ATM). I'll try to see if I had placed that listing anywhere else besides in the Documents of that dead/slain computer... lol

Guojing · May 12, 2019

CS1 said:

Thanks for clarifying those points that were unclear by merely quoting the scripture that you did.

My questions to you were not based on either or, but rather as I posed originally, what is the gospel that saves. As the Apostle Paul stated very clearly in 1 Cor 15

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This statement by Paul made it clear that, the gospel that saves today is simply to believe in the DBR of Christ. This is the Gospel of Grace for today.

The previous Gospel of the Kingdom, you need to acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and the promised Messiah.

Jeremiah 23:5 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Luke 1 NLT 30 “Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God! 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 And he will reign over Israel[c] forever; his Kingdom will never end!”

God's plan to establish the Messianic kingdom was no secret to the Jews of Christ's day. The kingdom is the very theme of Old Testament prophecy and is described there in great detail. Jeremiah 23 is to me, the clearest passage describing that good news (Gospel of the Kingdom)

The gospel of the kingdom was based on believing that Jesus is the sent one, the son of God. (John 11:27 and Matt 16:16). Note that only Jews could acknowledge that, as the time for the Gentiles has not yet come. As the Apostle Paul remarked in Romans 15:8, Jesus was the fulfillment of what God the Father promised the Jews thru their ancestor Abraham.

But the time of this gospel has passed because the Jews rejection of Jesus, to be replaced by the gospel of grace. While water baptism was a requirement to be saved under the previous GOK (Mark 16:16), this was dropped under the present GOG. As I have said in the opening post here, the confusion is those who insist that the GC is for the church, not realizing that it was based on the GOK, which has been declared obsolete by Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Once the age of grace ends, the GOG will likewise cease, and the GOK will return, that will happen after the church is raptured. (Matt 24:14)

Guojing · May 12, 2019

PS said:

So, in your opinion, is Jesus blood, that was shed for the forgiveness of sins, anything special?

How do you understand Hebrews 9:11-22 when it discusses Jesus sprinkling his blood in heaven?

PS · May 13, 2019

Guojing said:

The sacrifice, the lamb, had to be perfect and without blemish. Only Jesus could fulfill that requirement and only Jesus the perfect man could take our sins upon himself and die in our place. It was his death, his sacrifice on our behalf that redeemed us from sin.

Jesus the man died by the shedding of his own human life blood, he became like us, so that we might have eternal life, but it was his death and the conquering of death in the resurrection by which means He enabled us humans to gain entry to eternal life. The shedding of blood was the means by which he died, but it was His taking of our sins and placing them upon himself and dying in our room and stead, paying the penalty for our sins on our behalf and then conquering death and rising to new life that enables us to have eternal life with Him.

Guojing · May 13, 2019

PS said:

So what I think you are saying is that he is the perfect man, but that perfection has nothing to do with his blood. There is nothing special about his blood, his blood is the same as any other human blood.

Anyway this topic is irrelevant to the topic of this thread. Thanks for sharing.

Absolutely · May 13, 2019

Guojing said:

Not the same.
No human male dna. Mary's egg was somehow supernatural as well.
Something happened beyond our understanding.

Jesus had to be both God,and man.
It had to be God on the cross.

Absolutely · May 13, 2019

PS said:

Perfect man = yes.
But one step further.....God man.

It had to be God on the cross.
Only God could resurrect.

The message of the cross can not stand aside of the resurrection.
Only God could resurrect.
The cross is preached alongside the empty tomb.
If mankind only had sins removed,then Abraham's bosom would be our final place.
Through the resurrection we now have our place in heaven

PS · May 13, 2019

Absolutely said:

Yes, it was God on the cross and it was God, the creator of life who conquered death. Praise His Holy name.

Colossians 2:9...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Those fortunate enough to be in the presence of the Son, were in the presence of the Father. They are One.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

CS1 · May 13, 2019

Guojing said:

Thanks for clarifying those points that were unclear by merely quoting the scripture that you did.

My questions to you were not based on either or, but rather as I posed originally, what is the gospel that saves. As the Apostle Paul stated very clearly in 1 Cor 15

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This statement by Paul made it clear that the gospel that saves today is simply to believe in the DBR of Christ. This is the Gospel of Grace for today.

The previous Gospel of the Kingdom, you need to acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and the promised Messiah.

Jeremiah 23:5 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Luke 1 NLT 30 “Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God! 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 And he will reign over Israel[c] forever; his Kingdom will never end!”

God's plan to establish the Messianic kingdom was no secret to the Jews of Christ's day. The kingdom is the very theme of Old Testament prophecy and is described there in great detail. Jeremiah 23 is to me, the clearest passage describing that good news (Gospel of the Kingdom)

The gospel of the kingdom was based on believing that Jesus is the sent one, the son of God. (John 11:27 and Matt 16:16). Note that only Jews could acknowledge that, as the time for the Gentiles has not yet come. As the Apostle Paul remarked in Romans 15:8, Jesus was the fulfillment of what God the Father promised the Jews thru their ancestor Abraham.

But the time of this gospel has passed because the Jews rejection of Jesus, to be replaced by the gospel of grace. While water baptism was a requirement to be saved under the previous GOK (Mark 16:16), this was dropped under the present GOG. As I have said in the opening post here, the confusion is those who insist that the GC is for the church, not realizing that it was based on the GOK, which has been declared obsolete by Paul in Galatians 1:8.

Once the age of grace ends, the GOG will likewise cease, and the GOK will return, that will happen after the church is raptured. (Matt 24:14)

FYI quoting scripture was done to show where in the word of God is the context and application for my understanding. And I did not just merely quote scripture. The response to what was your questions I have highlighted in green.
the answer you provided was already said by myself and some others. DBR. As Paul said in 1cor 15 . You must have not seen that.

eternally-gratefull · May 13, 2019

Guojing said:

Some arguments why

The term "Great Commission" was never in the Bible, and Bible translators only added that in the heading.
Matthew's version, the most popular one, had Jesus instructing them to teach others to follow "everything" he has taught them, which if you read the entire Gospel of Matthew, had instructions which are clearly incompatible with Paul's Gospel. "Sell all you have'. 'do not go into the Gentiles' 'I was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel', 'Follow what the Pharisees instruct you as they sat on Moses's seat' etc.
John's version had an instruction that only the Roman Catholic church practiced, 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” No Protestant church that I know of practice this.
Mark's version said you must believe AND be baptized to be saved, safe to say, not many churches follow the latter. Furthermore, no church would tell their Gentile believers to pick up serpents as a sign now.
Luke's version say you must start from Jerusalem, obviously from what Paul said in Romans 9-11, that avenue is now closed since the vast majority of the Jews rejected the gospel.

What do the rest of you think?

The great commision gave two commands

1. Go and make disciples.
2. Once you make a disciple. Disciple them.

This mission is just as important today as it was the day Jesus gave the command. One of the great problems in the church today, is they see evangelism, But fail on discipleship

Guojing · May 13, 2019

CS1 said:

If you truly believe the gospel that saves is the DBR, that means DBR is sufficient to save you. There was no need to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the promised Messiah/King, and that long list of titles you listed. Your earlier answer was you need to believe BOTH to be saved. I supposed you are just playing safe here, in mixing the requirements for both GOK and GOG together.

I find that many people find it very difficult to accept that the 12 disciples, during the 4 Gospels and even in Acts, did not understand the significance of the DBR. Thus, if you examine scripture, it makes no sense to say they are preaching the same Gospel as Paul preached. From, the way you are combining both GOK and GOG together, it is clear you do not accept this too. As I have said, that is fine, we can agree to disagree.

Ignorant of Jesus’ Death, burial, and resurrection
1. Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it.
2. Mark 8:31-32 – Another account of Peter rebuking the Lord for speaking about his death.
3. Mark 9:31-32 – After hearing about the death and resurrection of Jesus the disciples “understood not and were afraid to ask him”
4. Luke 9:44-45 – “But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.”
5. Luke 18:31-34 – “And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.”
6. John 2:21-22 – They did not understand the resurrection until after it happened.

Disbelief in the Resurrection
7. Mark 16:5-14 – The ladies were afraid when they found the tomb empty. The disciples did not believe after two witnesses testified of the resurrection.
8. Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.
9. Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ “disappearance” were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.
10. John 20:2 – Mary Magdalene thought someone had stolen Jesus after he had resurrected.
11. John 20:7-9 – The disciples after seeing the empty tomb believed Mary that someone had stolen Jesus. They did not know about the resurrection yet.

Did not understand the cross for salvation
12. John 20:21-23 – Even after the resurrection, the disciples did not understand what it accomplished. Here they are given the authority to remit sins.
13. Acts 3:14-15 – The crucifixion was presented as a murder indictment to Israel at Pentecost. The resurrection as a warning that he would return to seek vengeance.
14. Acts 5:28 – Instead of the blood being payment for sins it was presented as the evidence of guilty murderers.
15. Acts 7:52 – Stephen accuses the rulers of betrayal and murder of the Just One.
16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews. Could it be that Peter does not yet understand the mystery of the cross?

Conclusions:
This list does not prove that the Twelve were disobedient to the gospel that was presented to them. Contrarily, they were some of the first believers in the gospel of the kingdom. They were among the faithful remnant of Israel who trusted that Jesus was the Son of God and promised Messiah.

However, these verses show that the gospel they knew and trusted was not the preaching of the cross that Paul taught. Whereas they knew Jesus Christ as Messiah to Israel, Paul would later teach Jesus Christ on the cross as payment for sins to Gentiles.
The preaching of the cross was offered for salvation first through the Apostle Paul as the Lord revealed the meaning of the death, burial, and resurrection. The Twelve apostles were ignorant of this message.

"...to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery..." Ephesians 3:9

Is the Great Commission irrelevant for the church now?

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