Is the Great Commission irrelevant for the church now?

[PS]

Why are you giving me Paul’s response when I was asking you about James? You are explaining why Paul agreed to their suggestion to pay for the Jewish ceremony for the Jews who are shaving their heads and also to join in.

Do you not understand my question?

.

We are talking about the law as it applies equally to both Paul and James. I feel we have below the answer to the difficulties arising out of the various teachings given to Jews and Gentiles immediately after the resurrection of Jesus. Read on :-

Paul (and James) were living in the interim period between the death and resurrection of Jesus and the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. The law ended when the veil was rent in two, but the Jews had not been fully shown that the law was abolished until the destruction of the Temple when every rite and ceremony of the Jewish law was swept away. Within this 70 year period their ceremonies were useless and of no avail. They were only dangerous when the Jews depended on them for salvation.” (Clarke)

Consequently Paul knowing this was able with a clear conscience to :- “live like a Jew in order to win them; and even though I myself am not subject to the Law of Moses, I live as though I were when working with those who are, in order to win them. (21) In the same way, when working with Gentiles, I live like a Gentile, outside the Jewish Law, in order to win Gentiles. This does not mean that I don’t obey God’s law; I am really under Christ’s law.” 1Co 9:20-21

 

[Guojing]

.

We are talking about the law as it applies equally to both Paul and James. I feel we have below the answer to the difficulties arising out of the various teachings given to Jews and Gentiles immediately after the resurrection of Jesus. Read on :-

Paul (and James) were living in the interim period between the death and resurrection of Jesus and the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. The law ended when the veil was rent in two, but the Jews had not been fully shown that the law was abolished until the destruction of the Temple when every rite and ceremony of the Jewish law was swept away. Within this 70 year period their ceremonies were useless and of no avail. They were only dangerous when the Jews depended on them for salvation.” (Clarke)

Consequently Paul knowing this was able with a clear conscience to :- “live like a Jew in order to win them; and even though I myself am not subject to the Law of Moses, I live as though I were when working with those who are, in order to win them. (21) In the same way, when working with Gentiles, I live like a Gentile, outside the Jewish Law, in order to win Gentiles. This does not mean that I don’t obey God’s law; I am really under Christ’s law.” 1Co 9:20-21

So I am asking you, what does James think, do you think he thinks the same way as Paul? Can you explain why?

Actually if you compare the book of James to Paul’s letters in the NT, the answer is pretty obvious. And incidentally, the book of James was completed before the events in acts 21.

 

[PS]

So I am asking you, what does James think, do you think he thinks the same way as Paul? Can you explain why?

Actually if you compare the book of James to Paul’s letters in the NT, the answer is pretty obvious. And incidentally, the book of James was completed before the events in acts 21.

I feel I have answered your question and I need to take the dog a walk. Both men were born Jews and both lived and taught the full Gospel. I am full of admiration for all those teachers and apostles who were living in tumultuous times when their task was to unite all nations in the love of Jesus. They needed support then as do all ministers who teach the Word of God.

 

[Guojing]

I feel I have answered your question and I need to take the dog a walk. Both men were born Jews and both lived and taught the full Gospel. I am full of admiration for all those teachers and apostles who were living in tumultuous times when their task was to unite all nations in the love of Jesus. They needed support then as do all ministers who teach the Word of God.

Ok so to conclude, in your opinion, Paul and James think alike, so whatever Paul believe and say, you believe James would say and believe the same thing. Okay then.

 

[notuptome]

Ok so to conclude, in your opinion, Paul and James think alike, so whatever Paul believe and say, you believe James would say and believe the same thing. Okay then.

Of course they think alike. It is the Holy Spirit writing through these men not the men themselves writing what they want or think.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you truly believe in the GC, that it is a commandment for the church to follow now, don't pick and choose what you want to follow.

-Matthew GC says you have to teach them to obey everything Jesus taught, which includes following the law of Moses.
-Mark GC says you have to teach that belief AND water baptism are required for salvation.
-John GC says you have the power to forgive sins.
-Luke and Acts GC says you have to start FROM Jerusalem.

The point is that everyone who says "I believe in the GC", does not follow what the GC is actually saying.

Non of these 4 things are true!

 

[Guojing]

Of course they think alike. It is the Holy Spirit writing through these men not the men themselves writing what they want or think.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So when you read Acts 21:20-26, you get the impression that James and Paul are playing some kind of game with the zealous Jews, "Oh actually both of us know that all the Jews no longer need to follow the Law of Moses, but let's pretend to have this ceremony, and for you to pay for it, so that they don't get offended."

And the elders along with them, also agree to this charade?

 

[Guojing]

Non of these 4 things are true!

Would you do me a favor and quote the verses written about the GC, as you can read in the 4 Gospels and Acts, and tell me which parts you think are not true?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Would you do me a favor and quote the verses written about the GC, as you can read in the 4 Gospels and Acts, and tell me which parts you think are not true?

Your interpretation of them is not true my friend,

Jesus never ever taught that obeying the law of moses was a way to salvation. That is not true.

Water baptism has never saved anyone, in any period.

The gospel has the power to forgive sin, thus since we have the gospel. In effect, we have the power to give the medicine which forgives sins

We do not have to start in jerusalem. That was the commission of the church, we still have that commission, we are in the part. To the ends of the earth.

 

[Guojing]

Your interpretation of them is not true my friend,

Jesus never ever taught that obeying the law of moses was a way to salvation. That is not true.

Water baptism has never saved anyone, in any period.

The gospel has the power to forgive sin, thus since we have the gospel. In effect, we have the power to give the medicine which forgives sins

We do not have to start in jerusalem. That was the commission of the church, we still have that commission, we are in the part. To the ends of the earth.

I have no idea why you are unwilling to quote the scripture to back your points. Why not just start with the most popular one, the Matt version. Quote it and let us examine it together shall we?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have no idea why you are unwilling to quote the scripture to back your points. Why not just start with the most popular one, the Matt version. Quote it and let us examine it together shall we?

I am not unwilling to do anything

I just gave you the 4 responses to the 4 points.. Posting those verses is not going to change what is true.

 

[notuptome]

So when you read Acts 21:20-26, you get the impression that James and Paul are playing some kind of game with the zealous Jews, "Oh actually both of us know that all the Jews no longer need to follow the Law of Moses, but let's pretend to have this ceremony, and for you to pay for it, so that they don't get offended."

And the elders along with them, also agree to this charade?

You seem to have a distorted perception of what is going on here in Acts 21. James is not advocating for obedience to the law for righteousness sake. Perhaps you should explain what you think these scriptures are teaching?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

Acts 2-7 do not show that the 12 and Stephen understood the significance of the DBR. As I have already stated,

• 13. Acts 3:14-15 – The crucifixion was presented as a murder indictment to Israel at Pentecost.
• 14. Acts 5:28 – Instead of the blood being payment for sins it was presented as the evidence of guilty murderers.
• 15. Acts 7:52 – Stephen accuses the rulers of betrayal and murder of the Just One.
• 16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews.

You are reading into the Bible. Peter and Stephen used the DBR to prove that Jesus is the promised Messiah and Son of God, which is still the gospel of the Kingdom.

Stephen was not an "Apostle", and his Acts account was in context to the question from the Sanhedrin Acts 7:1

" Then the high priest asked Stephen, “Are these charges true?”

what was the charge?

Acts 6:14
"For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.”

IN Acts 7:59-60
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep."

Stephen fully Knew Who Jesus was.
You really need to take that History Channel lesson you seem to have embraced to another site.
Your taking out of Context the verses you use to suggest the Apostles did not understand the DBR is laughable.

Matthew 27:50-53 shows they knew
John 11:25-26 show He knew
Luke 24:6-7 say they knew
Rom 6 says Paul knew
Rev 20 testifies John Knew.

Eph 1:17-21

and many more. I am not reading into the scriptures and frankly, that too is laughable after the allegorizing you did with the verse you used out of context. Sounds more JW doctrine or one who does not believe Jesus is God.

 

[Absolutely]

If you truly believe the gospel that saves is the DBR, that means DBR is sufficient to save you. There was no need to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the promised Messiah/King, and that long list of titles you listed. Your earlier answer was you need to believe BOTH to be saved. I supposed you are just playing safe here, in mixing the requirements for both GOK and GOG together.

I find that many people find it very difficult to accept that the 12 disciples, during the 4 Gospels and even in Acts, did not understand the significance of the DBR. Thus, if you examine scripture, it makes no sense to say they are preaching the same Gospel as Paul preached. From, the way you are combining both GOK and GOG together, it is clear you do not accept this too. As I have said, that is fine, we can agree to disagree.

• Ignorant of Jesus’ Death, burial, and resurrection
  
  
• 1. Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it.
• 2. Mark 8:31-32 – Another account of Peter rebuking the Lord for speaking about his death.
• 3. Mark 9:31-32 – After hearing about the death and resurrection of Jesus the disciples “understood not and were afraid to ask him”
• 4. Luke 9:44-45 – “But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.”
• 5. Luke 18:31-34 – “And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.”
• 6. John 2:21-22 – They did not understand the resurrection until after it happened.

• Disbelief in the Resurrection
• 7. Mark 16:5-14 – The ladies were afraid when they found the tomb empty. The disciples did not believe after two witnesses testified of the resurrection.
• 8. Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.
• 9. Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ “disappearance” were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.
• 10. John 20:2 – Mary Magdalene thought someone had stolen Jesus after he had resurrected.
• 11. John 20:7-9 – The disciples after seeing the empty tomb believed Mary that someone had stolen Jesus. They did not know about the resurrection yet.

• Did not understand the cross for salvation
• 12. John 20:21-23 – Even after the resurrection, the disciples did not understand what it accomplished. Here they are given the authority to remit sins.
• 13. Acts 3:14-15 – The crucifixion was presented as a murder indictment to Israel at Pentecost. The resurrection as a warning that he would return to seek vengeance.
• 14. Acts 5:28 – Instead of the blood being payment for sins it was presented as the evidence of guilty murderers.
• 15. Acts 7:52 – Stephen accuses the rulers of betrayal and murder of the Just One.
• 16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews. Could it be that Peter does not yet understand the mystery of the cross?

Conclusions:
This list does not prove that the Twelve were disobedient to the gospel that was presented to them. Contrarily, they were some of the first believers in the gospel of the kingdom. They were among the faithful remnant of Israel who trusted that Jesus was the Son of God and promised Messiah.

However, these verses show that the gospel they knew and trusted was not the preaching of the cross that Paul taught. Whereas they knew Jesus Christ as Messiah to Israel, Paul would later teach Jesus Christ on the cross as payment for sins to Gentiles.
The preaching of the cross was offered for salvation first through the Apostle Paul as the Lord revealed the meaning of the death, burial, and resurrection. The Twelve apostles were ignorant of this message.

"...to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery..." Ephesians 3:9

Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom.

At our mens bible study,the paul only guy blurted out of nowhere "how many of you think Jesus is king ?"

Nobody answered his trick question.
He went on to inform us Jesus is NOT KING.
His "reasoning" (he actually got it from the pauline teachers) was that Jesus has not yet returned and blah,blah,blah.

A simple bible study of about 5 minutes destroys that silliness.

Ok ,the point is,they teach that mess because of the "kingdom" bogeyman.
Kingdom=bad.
Grace=good
......or so they tell us.
Grace for the church
Kingdom for the Jews
....or so they tell us.

So,we come to modern pauline understanding.
We were duped into believing the bible is the word of God.
We were duped into following Jesus.
We were duped into believing Jesus is King.
We were duped into believing Jesus preached the gospel
We were duped into believing Jesus still has power,and the Holy Spirit still baptises believers into power with signs and wonders following.

Jesus duped us.

Of course that "duping" is a lie.
It just shows you WHY the paulines, need the reframing of the bible.

I don't understand what you are saying here. The Gospel of the Kingdom was being preached in early Acts, and yes, many Jews accepted Jesus as their Promised Messiah and signs and wonders came, along with rejoicing.

Thus I agree with you. But are you saying we should still continue to preach that Gospel now? The Jews as a nation have rejected the GOK. For the present GOG, you are saved apart from your works. Don't tell me you want to be under the Law of Moses, like how all of them were zealous for the law? ( Acts 21:20)

Both Jesus and Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom.
You saying Jesus did not understand grace?

Why are you giving me Paul’s response when I was asking you about James? You are explaining why Paul agreed to their suggestion to pay for the Jewish ceremony for the Jews who are shaving their heads and also to join in.

Do you not understand my question?

Peter had the understanding that the gentiles were grafted in before Paul did.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

At our mens bible study,the paul only guy blurted out of nowhere "how many of you think Jesus is king ?"

Perhaps he meant, is Jesus sitting on His Davidic throne? (Amill-teaching says, "yes, UP IN Heaven [presently]" [i.e. there is NO future earthly reign of Jesus]; Pre-mill says, when He "returns" to the earth [per Peter in Acts 3, etc])




["King" is only mentioned 2x in all of the epistles, and both of them are "future tense"--1Tim6:15 "which IN HIS TIMES He SHALL SHEW [openly manifest]..." (and Rev19:15b is also "future tense" from that point in time of His "return" to the earth)]

 

[Absolutely]

Perhaps he meant, is Jesus sitting on His Davidic throne? (Amill-teaching says, "yes, UP IN Heaven [presently]"; Pre-mill says, when He "returns" to the earth [per Peter in Acts 3, etc])




["King" is only mentioned 2x in all of the epistles, and both of them are "future tense"--1Tim6:15 "which IN HIS TIMES He SHALL SHEW [openly manifest]..." (and Rev19:15b is also "future tense" from that point in time of His "return" to the earth)]

They need Jesus to NOT be king now.
It interferes with their talking points.

He is king now.
He is enthroned now. The Father designated Him as God in heb 1,and declared his throne and rulership

 

[Absolutely]

PAUL PREACHED THE KINGDOM OF GOD
NO FOUL. NO PARANOIA. NO PROBLEM
________________________________________


30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

 

[Guojing]

You seem to have a distorted perception of what is going on here in Acts 21. James is not advocating for obedience to the law for righteousness sake. Perhaps you should explain what you think these scriptures are teaching?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

James is a devout Jew, and to them, they believe that they need Faith + Works, to be saved. They don't separate the 2. The verse that is very popular in this forum is this verse from James' letter.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[Guojing]

Stephen was not an "Apostle", and his Acts account was in context to the question from the Sanhedrin Acts 7:1

" Then the high priest asked Stephen, “Are these charges true?”

what was the charge?

Acts 6:14
"For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.”

IN Acts 7:59-60
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep."

Stephen fully Knew Who Jesus was.
You really need to take that History Channel lesson you seem to have embraced to another site.
Your taking out of Context the verses you use to suggest the Apostles did not understand the DBR is laughable.

Matthew 27:50-53 shows they knew
John 11:25-26 show He knew
Luke 24:6-7 say they knew
Rom 6 says Paul knew
Rev 20 testifies John Knew.

Eph 1:17-21

and many more. I am not reading into the scriptures and frankly, that too is laughable after the allegorizing you did with the verse you used out of context. Sounds more JW doctrine or one who does not believe Jesus is God.

Yes, as I have already commented before, to you, the Gospel of Grace has the same underlying message as the Gospel of the Kingdom. For those who believe that, nothing the Scripture says will change their minds. That is okay. We can agree to disagree. Cheers

 

[corazondeldei]

Love is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13:10)

The Gospel is the good news of our SALVATION, the WORD OF TRUTH.
It was preached to the Jews but they rejected it and stumbled because of their DISOBEDIENCE.

NIV1984 1 Peter 2:8
and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

And that message that was preached to both the circumcised and uncircumcised is about God's love for us, a SELFLESS LOVE.

The Gospel preached by Paul regarding the life, death, burial, resurrection of Jesus and His shed blood on the cross is no different from the gospel preached to the Israelites. It is the message we have heard from the beginning.

NIV1984 1 John 3:11-18
This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

NIV1984 Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Yes, I am not saying there is a conflict. Clearly, under the Gospel of grace, the cross is something to be celebrated, to boast about. Paul wrote numerous times in his letters to the Gentile Church

Romans 3:25 (NLT) For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past

1 Corinthians 1:18 New Living Translation (NLT) 18 The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.

Galatians 6:4 New Living Translation (NLT) As for me, may I never boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:20 (NASB) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Colossians 2:14 (NIRV) He wiped out the written Law with its rules. The Law was against us. It opposed us. He took it away and nailed it to the cross.

However, I am saying that Peter was not preaching the same gospel of grace as the Apostle Paul did. As an example, I can imagine if Peter did preach the same message about the cross as Paul did, and if he did mentioned Colossians 2:14. his Jewish listeners would very likely stone him on the spot, given how zealous they are for the law. ( Acts 21:20)

But he didn't have to preach that since Galatians 2 clearly stated

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

In the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is for the circumcised Jews, there is no need for them to believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose again as a sign that they are now justified in the eyes of God.

All they need to do is to acknowledge that Jesus is the promised Messiah and King sent to them. As the Gospel of John concluded in ch 20, remember he was one of the 3 apostles who agreed to confine their ministry to only the Jews,

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

If you truly believe in the GC, that it is a commandment for the church to follow now, don't pick and choose what you want to follow.

-Matthew GC says you have to teach them to obey everything Jesus taught, which includes following the law of Moses.
-Mark GC says you have to teach that belief AND water baptism are required for salvation.
-John GC says you have the power to forgive sins.
-Luke and Acts GC says you have to start FROM Jerusalem.

The point is that everyone who says "I believe in the GC", does not follow what the GC is actually saying.