Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?
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E
You strive to keep saved.
I strive to walk in the spirit, and thus I for the most part do not fulfill the lusts of my flesh
But I would never say i was perfect. or did not have flaws..I would never want to excuse my sin, or consider myself more righteous than the next person (for then I would be boasting in self) . I am righteous by the blood of Christ, thats all!!
I strive to walk in the spirit, and thus I for the most part do not fulfill the lusts of my flesh
But I would never say i was perfect. or did not have flaws..I would never want to excuse my sin, or consider myself more righteous than the next person (for then I would be boasting in self) . I am righteous by the blood of Christ, thats all!!
That's what Paul was saying in Romans 7, and Jesus brought those things into a greater understanding, without abolishing them. I don't see anything wrong with continuing to get an idea of what sin is by looking at the Torah, and then applying it as Jesus instructed.
Have you ever tried it? As the old cliche goes, "Don't knock it until you try it"
If you've never gone through the process, you wouldn't understand. It's not really something you can observe someone doing, and then understand why.
But, to each their own.
It depends on why you're doing it. If you're doing it out of vain religious duty, it means nothing. If you're doing if with a heart to know God, nothing wrong with that.
Why get baptised? It's just acting out a shadow of the transformation that God has already done in us? Why do the Lord's Supper? Why celebrate Easter (for those who do)? etc. The rituals, whether in the OT or the NT carry the same precaution and risk. I'm not sure you do any of these things, but there are people who would make the same argument as you are, yet still practice these same rituals.
Disclaimer: I have been baptised, and would recommend Believers do the same. The same with the Cup and the bread.
this is why i don't understand grown adults searching for packets of baking yeast as some kind of round-about way to just teaching about SIN.
If you've never gone through the process, you wouldn't understand. It's not really something you can observe someone doing, and then understand why.
But, to each their own.
It depends on why you're doing it. If you're doing it out of vain religious duty, it means nothing. If you're doing if with a heart to know God, nothing wrong with that.
Why get baptised? It's just acting out a shadow of the transformation that God has already done in us? Why do the Lord's Supper? Why celebrate Easter (for those who do)? etc. The rituals, whether in the OT or the NT carry the same precaution and risk. I'm not sure you do any of these things, but there are people who would make the same argument as you are, yet still practice these same rituals.
Disclaimer: I have been baptised, and would recommend Believers do the same. The same with the Cup and the bread.
If I could clarify some points in your example...
It's already been established that it was the goal of the Pharisees to use the Law, or the Old Covenant, to affect someone's status before God. They thought obedience to it was critical for salvation, and disobedience disqualified you from it. It has also been established that the Torah was never intended to do this, because our salvation is by "grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast" (Eph 2:8-9).
Once you pass a test, you don't have to take it again, you're correct. (Unless you consider Final Exams, Licensing Exams, etc.)
However, every test you take builds upon the knowledge you gained on previous tests. When you're taking an Algebra test, are they any questions testing you on simple addition and subtraction? No. Would it be helpful to know and use simple math on each question, and for every math test you will ever take? Yes.
Application: Do we need the Torah to "pass" into right standing with God? No. Do we need to know what sin is to avoid doing it on a daily basis? I would recommend it.
Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law"
Blessings, bro.
Matt
It's already been established that it was the goal of the Pharisees to use the Law, or the Old Covenant, to affect someone's status before God. They thought obedience to it was critical for salvation, and disobedience disqualified you from it. It has also been established that the Torah was never intended to do this, because our salvation is by "grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast" (Eph 2:8-9).
Once you pass a test, you don't have to take it again, you're correct. (Unless you consider Final Exams, Licensing Exams, etc.
) However, every test you take builds upon the knowledge you gained on previous tests. When you're taking an Algebra test, are they any questions testing you on simple addition and subtraction? No. Would it be helpful to know and use simple math on each question, and for every math test you will ever take? Yes.
Application: Do we need the Torah to "pass" into right standing with God? No. Do we need to know what sin is to avoid doing it on a daily basis? I would recommend it.
Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law"
Blessings, bro.
Matt
Ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the Truth.
The schoolmaster, the law, teaches us to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. After we pass that "test" we are no longer under the schoolmaster, the law.
We, who are Christians, have graduated to a better class, with better promises!!
There's this classroom we can call Detention. In this classroom the instructor has a rod and he shows all the people what perfection is. Then he makes them look in the mirror. When they see that they are not perfect they get beat with this rod. The instructor is trying to make them be like the Master. The Master teaches class just across the hall. But there is a great divide. You can't just leave detention and go across the hall. The Master has to take you across the divide.
The Master watches the people in detention. He sees that they all look into this mirror and would rather not look anywhere else. Every once in a while someone will look away from the mirror and look towards Him. These are the ones that He takes across the Hall to a New Class, a better Class, with better Promises.
These people who are set free from Detention usually don't go back. And if they do go back its only briefly until they remember that they don't have to be there anymore, they're already a part of the Masters Class. These people who are part of the Masters Class try to tell the people in Detention that they don't have to be in Detention anymore. They try to tell them about the Master and His Class, but the people in Detention think they are learning more about the Master from their instructor with the rod and so they don't listen.
The Master wants people to come out of Detention but He lets them stay in Detention if that is what they really want.
That is the way I feel about it too. If you want to stay in detention then thats your choice. Just don't pretend you're in the Masters Class when youre still in Detention under the instructor with the rod. The people who are actually in the Masters Class can spot the ones pretending really easily...
The Master watches the people in detention. He sees that they all look into this mirror and would rather not look anywhere else. Every once in a while someone will look away from the mirror and look towards Him. These are the ones that He takes across the Hall to a New Class, a better Class, with better Promises.
These people who are set free from Detention usually don't go back. And if they do go back its only briefly until they remember that they don't have to be there anymore, they're already a part of the Masters Class. These people who are part of the Masters Class try to tell the people in Detention that they don't have to be in Detention anymore. They try to tell them about the Master and His Class, but the people in Detention think they are learning more about the Master from their instructor with the rod and so they don't listen.
The Master wants people to come out of Detention but He lets them stay in Detention if that is what they really want.
That is the way I feel about it too. If you want to stay in detention then thats your choice. Just don't pretend you're in the Masters Class when youre still in Detention under the instructor with the rod. The people who are actually in the Masters Class can spot the ones pretending really easily...
Originally Posted by just-me
This can be related to sowing the seed of the Word, and the Woman being the church, or the ground in the parable of the sower and the seed. Sowing the seed during the wrong season will be in vain.
What church fathers? I'm endorsing the Word itself and nothing more. I wasn't thinking of any early church fathers, the Septuagint, the Greeks, the Romans, or anything else except straight KJV Bible. LOL GBU.
This can be related to sowing the seed of the Word, and the Woman being the church, or the ground in the parable of the sower and the seed. Sowing the seed during the wrong season will be in vain.
What church fathers? I'm endorsing the Word itself and nothing more. I wasn't thinking of any early church fathers, the Septuagint, the Greeks, the Romans, or anything else except straight KJV Bible. LOL GBU.
S
That's what Paul was saying in Romans 7, and Jesus brought those things into a greater understanding, without abolishing them. I don't see anything wrong with continuing to get an idea of what sin is by looking at the Torah, and then applying it as Jesus instructed.
Have you ever tried it? As the old cliche goes, "Don't knock it until you try it"
If you've never gone through the process, you wouldn't understand. It's not really something you can observe someone doing, and then understand why.
But, to each their own.
It depends on why you're doing it. If you're doing it out of vain religious duty, it means nothing. If you're doing if with a heart to know God, nothing wrong with that.
Why get baptised? It's just acting out a shadow of the transformation that God has already done in us? Why do the Lord's Supper? Why celebrate Easter (for those who do)? etc. The rituals, whether in the OT or the NT carry the same precaution and risk. I'm not sure you do any of these things, but there are people who would make the same argument as you are, yet still practice these same rituals.
Disclaimer: I have been baptised, and would recommend Believers do the same. The same with the Cup and the bread.
Have you ever tried it? As the old cliche goes, "Don't knock it until you try it"
If you've never gone through the process, you wouldn't understand. It's not really something you can observe someone doing, and then understand why.
But, to each their own.
It depends on why you're doing it. If you're doing it out of vain religious duty, it means nothing. If you're doing if with a heart to know God, nothing wrong with that.
Why get baptised? It's just acting out a shadow of the transformation that God has already done in us? Why do the Lord's Supper? Why celebrate Easter (for those who do)? etc. The rituals, whether in the OT or the NT carry the same precaution and risk. I'm not sure you do any of these things, but there are people who would make the same argument as you are, yet still practice these same rituals.
Disclaimer: I have been baptised, and would recommend Believers do the same. The same with the Cup and the bread.
where'd you get the idea anybody said Sunday was the Sabbath?
God bless you if you stay home on what people have determined through Rabbinic oral tradition MIGHT be the 7th day the Israelites observed in the Land.
why people don't understand that Law was given to a specific people about specific Land and for specific commeration.
that Covenant no longer exists, and you weren't there.
neither can anyone who identifies as a jew today prove their ancestors were, since Judaism now insists descent is through the Maternal line.
confused?
that's what happens when you grope around in shadows - and shadows from post 70AD Judaism's traditions.
but, your choice.
God bless you in whichever day(s) you esteem.
God bless you if you stay home on what people have determined through Rabbinic oral tradition MIGHT be the 7th day the Israelites observed in the Land.
why people don't understand that Law was given to a specific people about specific Land and for specific commeration.
that Covenant no longer exists, and you weren't there.
neither can anyone who identifies as a jew today prove their ancestors were, since Judaism now insists descent is through the Maternal line.
confused?
that's what happens when you grope around in shadows - and shadows from post 70AD Judaism's traditions.
but, your choice.
God bless you in whichever day(s) you esteem.
it is not only childish, it's dangerous.
is anyone really going to tell me the conscience isn't going to come under "condemnation" over that pepperoni pizza and packets of yeast and whatnot after years of repeating those rituals?
ppl can say they don't do it for "salvation" or to please God - faith in Christ alone pleases God - but most aren't wise enough to recognize the slow motion return to bondage.
washing your hands keeps the germs away.
that's it.
i don't know WHY we don't learn from the tragedy of the Israelites who thought those things WERE their sanctification.
is anyone really going to tell me the conscience isn't going to come under "condemnation" over that pepperoni pizza and packets of yeast and whatnot after years of repeating those rituals?
ppl can say they don't do it for "salvation" or to please God - faith in Christ alone pleases God - but most aren't wise enough to recognize the slow motion return to bondage.
washing your hands keeps the germs away.
that's it.
i don't know WHY we don't learn from the tragedy of the Israelites who thought those things WERE their sanctification.
S
Thanks so much Kohen for explaining so well what all the Jewish Roots movement believes and how they utilize that belief to worship and serve God in every way. I also thank Just-Me for starting this thread with his question or I wouldn't have been able to understand this so well. I too am absolutely convinced this movement is of God and no misguided cult whatsoever. I'm also profoundly impressed at the way you've handled the constant battering ridicule you've received, even after you've explained perfectly how the grace of God enables us to God's will, which made clear by Jesus' own words, are embodied in all the laws He gave us.
God be with you Kohen. I just hope in time I too will develop the patience both you and others representing this issue on this thread have shown in discussing this issue.
God be with you Kohen. I just hope in time I too will develop the patience both you and others representing this issue on this thread have shown in discussing this issue.
Hmmm, and yet Paul wrote...
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Here he names Commandments.
And of course Christ Himself said...
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Here he names Commandments.
And of course Christ Himself said...
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
E
You forgot the most important part of the whole message.
"there is NON good but God"
thus we can keep these things as well as we can., Even be like the pharisee and not break one of them, But we will still be unworthy of salvation.. Why?
there is but on good, and that is God (Christ)
For ALL (including John here) have sinned, and fallen short (missed the mark) of the glory of God (the law)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]being justified (declared righteous) freely (it did not cost us anything) by His grace (mercy) through the redemption (purchased price of the cross) that is in Christ Jesus (not in obeying the law)
"there is NON good but God"
thus we can keep these things as well as we can., Even be like the pharisee and not break one of them, But we will still be unworthy of salvation.. Why?
there is but on good, and that is God (Christ)
For ALL (including John here) have sinned, and fallen short (missed the mark) of the glory of God (the law)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]being justified (declared righteous) freely (it did not cost us anything) by His grace (mercy) through the redemption (purchased price of the cross) that is in Christ Jesus (not in obeying the law)
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