Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?
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Why can't people accept what scripture says?
The law is perfect and Holy.
The law shows us we need Christ
If we love Christ we will obey
The law is not given to the unsaved
The law will not save, only God can do that
The law is given to us for our blessing.
If we would be saved by the law we would have to obey every one law, and we can't
And many of the many other truths about the law. Why must one truth be used to say other truths are not so?
The law is perfect and Holy.
The law shows us we need Christ
If we love Christ we will obey
The law is not given to the unsaved
The law will not save, only God can do that
The law is given to us for our blessing.
If we would be saved by the law we would have to obey every one law, and we can't
And many of the many other truths about the law. Why must one truth be used to say other truths are not so?
H
Redtent, you miss the place of the law in that you say , "the law was not given to the unsaved". Israel was mostly unsaved. God gave the laws for all mankind to govern them self in a peaceful and godly, kind way. Our USA forefathers knew this, so they build our judicial system after the moral law. No world view is good if it doesn't include God's 10 commandments. Love to all, Just use the NEW Cov. to guide youa. Hoffco
I am so glad to hear from you, last I heard was you felt I was all wrong about God. I think there is something to what you say because the law defines the spiritual order of the universe, but there are those who live their life purely in the secular world. As I listen to scripture, I see God loving those people and wanting them to be alive in Him, to come to Him, but the moral law is for us to listen to after salvation. The law does not save at all.
Also, Israel had a special place in God's eyes as we can see as we carefully go over what God created them for in, especially, the scriptures about Abraham. They were to be used for our benefit, with special nurturing because of that.
Also, Israel had a special place in God's eyes as we can see as we carefully go over what God created them for in, especially, the scriptures about Abraham. They were to be used for our benefit, with special nurturing because of that.
H
Redtent you are missing God's heart for even the lost, God would want all to be saved , this is His heart. but His will is that only the elect will be saved and the ungodly He has made for destruction, but, putting that aside, God does have a loving heart and if we would promote His laws for mankind we would have a more peaceful society. . Evil men rule when good men say nothing. paradox Love tro all, Hoffco
H
Paul makes a very mysterious comment here, but we will that it as is, Paul loves people and wants to win all he can for Christ, so He tries not to offend any one ,so He gets the chance to win them to Christ , at least give a good testimony to them. And in vs, 23 and 27 paul show how serious is our way of life because our salvation depends on our living for Jesus and righteousness. the end is eternal life or eternal death. as he said in Rom.6:22, the holy life lead to eternal life. BUT, we don't earn eternal life. it is a gift. Yet the gift has strings attached to it. "disqualified" is to be lost according to 2Cor13:5. Love to all, Hoffco
Good point!!! I have looked over just the fruit of the people in my church and the HRM church in town, my church can't compare in Holy living. Not Pharisee like surface holiness, but a joy and shining in the faces.
The leaders of the HRM church in my town have written books that Amazon says are leaders in the theological world, no one that I know of has come close to that in my church.
In my church, we all sit passively on Sunday morning listening to a sermon. In the HRM church those two times I went, many in the congregation joined in the talk about the Lord, and their knowledge of scripture made me go home and study.
In my church it is often about something in either the new or old testament. The talk those days in the HRM brought in the relationship between the two testaments. Christ was front and center, and all was centered on Him.
The leaders of the HRM church in my town have written books that Amazon says are leaders in the theological world, no one that I know of has come close to that in my church.
In my church, we all sit passively on Sunday morning listening to a sermon. In the HRM church those two times I went, many in the congregation joined in the talk about the Lord, and their knowledge of scripture made me go home and study.
In my church it is often about something in either the new or old testament. The talk those days in the HRM brought in the relationship between the two testaments. Christ was front and center, and all was centered on Him.
H
Redtent, I am discussing a very fine item of truth, of the character of God, that very few people can grasp. Please don't poo poo it. You can be sooo sensitive when criticized and react sooo stupid. I praise you when I can and have praised you before. So, please "roll" with the bunch. God has so many sides and most can not, will not, learn them all. God is not without emotions, and His love for those whom He has "appointed" to wrath is one strange side of God. It is like a Father having to sentence his own son with the death penalty. As was the law of Moses, to parents of a very wicked son, they were to throw the first stone. We can not be destroying the words of God because of our not liking the purposes of His laws. God gave and now has altered. We must accept the cruelty of the Old T. and the Mercy of the New T. but the end sentence has not changed, "the soul that sins, shall die", and God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather they repent and be saved. Love Hoffco
You feel I am stupid, but I do defend my Lord when people tell things about Him I know isn't so!!
I had no idea we were so far apart, I thought of you as only a worshipper of God.
I had a hard time with the cruelty I thought I saw in the OT, as if God had something of Him that was not love. Surely you can see that God is one, and unity, the eternalness of God is basic. If God is loving in 2014, God is loving in BC 3,000. Christ changed a lot, but Christ did not change anything basic about the character of God.
If you will do this, you will understand with your logical as well as with your spiritual mind. Find out all you can about the culture and governments of the peoples of the OT. We have the information available now, men who write about it are usually professors of ancient history in prestigious colleges. It must be scholars you read, you must be careful of their credentials. These are the people that Joshua was sent to conquer, and the laws given to Moses was a sort of national constitution for the new government. You need to compare them to the government of such as the Amorites the new laws were sent to replace.
They had no jail system as we have. When God said "this is so important that if you break these things I tell you of it is better you stone those who break it if they truly insist on doing it" it was NOT out of cruelty, it was because if it was broken it would take away their safety and security of living. There was no justice or kindness in the laws these laws of the lands where these laws were to replace. If you follow all the ones God gave they propose a society filled with justice and kindness. Many of the laws has to do with what Christ replaced like the temple and the Holy Spirit.
Use the laws about immorality for an example in today's world. We do not use these laws today. So even in the best of Christian families, there is no security in family. The God principle of respecting who God used for each of us to be created is ignored. I am an elderly mother, for instance, and because I am poor, almost blind, and can't help any more I am discarded. My family often serves on church boards, even works as missionaries, but ignores my needs. If our world accepted God's idea of family, I would not be discarded. There is love and justice in God's laws, I am an example of discarding God's laws.
So I cannot believe that God changed his character from cruelty to mercy. I see only mercy as a characteristic of God from the day of creation.
I feel that my study of scripture is completely ignored, and is only called ignorant. I can only plow quietly ahead, and be sure I report only scripture.
I had no idea we were so far apart, I thought of you as only a worshipper of God.
I had a hard time with the cruelty I thought I saw in the OT, as if God had something of Him that was not love. Surely you can see that God is one, and unity, the eternalness of God is basic. If God is loving in 2014, God is loving in BC 3,000. Christ changed a lot, but Christ did not change anything basic about the character of God.
If you will do this, you will understand with your logical as well as with your spiritual mind. Find out all you can about the culture and governments of the peoples of the OT. We have the information available now, men who write about it are usually professors of ancient history in prestigious colleges. It must be scholars you read, you must be careful of their credentials. These are the people that Joshua was sent to conquer, and the laws given to Moses was a sort of national constitution for the new government. You need to compare them to the government of such as the Amorites the new laws were sent to replace.
They had no jail system as we have. When God said "this is so important that if you break these things I tell you of it is better you stone those who break it if they truly insist on doing it" it was NOT out of cruelty, it was because if it was broken it would take away their safety and security of living. There was no justice or kindness in the laws these laws of the lands where these laws were to replace. If you follow all the ones God gave they propose a society filled with justice and kindness. Many of the laws has to do with what Christ replaced like the temple and the Holy Spirit.
Use the laws about immorality for an example in today's world. We do not use these laws today. So even in the best of Christian families, there is no security in family. The God principle of respecting who God used for each of us to be created is ignored. I am an elderly mother, for instance, and because I am poor, almost blind, and can't help any more I am discarded. My family often serves on church boards, even works as missionaries, but ignores my needs. If our world accepted God's idea of family, I would not be discarded. There is love and justice in God's laws, I am an example of discarding God's laws.
So I cannot believe that God changed his character from cruelty to mercy. I see only mercy as a characteristic of God from the day of creation.
I feel that my study of scripture is completely ignored, and is only called ignorant. I can only plow quietly ahead, and be sure I report only scripture.
Awesome and good for you. It is a needed resource.
I have coined a phrase: "Error begats more error". satan is not happy when a person embraces a small error. So once a person accepts a small error, soon they accept more and more until their salvation is in serious jeopardy. I hang out in the bible study room and we had a man come in to that chat room claiming to be a pastor and also the only one at CC qualified to teach, a tall claim. I suspect he is neither. He began teaching members in a private bible study and many of them embraced his errors. He taught that Greek is inferior to Hebrew and the NT can not be trusted. He did claim Jesus was the Messiah, but only thru the lens of the OT. He claimed new converts should first read the OT. He claimed we must observe all the laws of the Torah except animal sacrifice. He claimed we can't please God unless we eat a kosher diet and a whole litany of Hebrewisms. In the end he led several weaker Christians to doubt the NT and NT teachings. One even rejected Christ and the NT altogether. One of his "students" teaches his garbage in the bible study room. She lists herself in her profile as being a "Non-christian". Very sad.
This man was a very bad example of the HRM but he is not alone. So thank you for you efforts.
I have coined a phrase: "Error begats more error". satan is not happy when a person embraces a small error. So once a person accepts a small error, soon they accept more and more until their salvation is in serious jeopardy. I hang out in the bible study room and we had a man come in to that chat room claiming to be a pastor and also the only one at CC qualified to teach, a tall claim. I suspect he is neither. He began teaching members in a private bible study and many of them embraced his errors. He taught that Greek is inferior to Hebrew and the NT can not be trusted. He did claim Jesus was the Messiah, but only thru the lens of the OT. He claimed new converts should first read the OT. He claimed we must observe all the laws of the Torah except animal sacrifice. He claimed we can't please God unless we eat a kosher diet and a whole litany of Hebrewisms. In the end he led several weaker Christians to doubt the NT and NT teachings. One even rejected Christ and the NT altogether. One of his "students" teaches his garbage in the bible study room. She lists herself in her profile as being a "Non-christian". Very sad.
This man was a very bad example of the HRM but he is not alone. So thank you for you efforts.
Forums are a favorite place for Torah-folk to glean new converts. There are a number of believers who 'cross over' to the HRM way of thinking, and eventually come out, however, when they begin to take an honest look at the fruit of their belief system.
I'd differ with you that someone who is truly saved puts their salvation in jeopardy; I have a post regarding this issue at JGIG:
The key thing that I've come to understand there is this (excerpted from the post above):
There are some from the HRM who convert to Judaism outright. And there arises a real sticky wicket: Are we in a position to judge the heart regarding the salvation/eternal security of one who goes so far as to do something as drastic as that?
Here’s a question worth considering: Are they, by their actions carried out under deception, rejecting the True Christ Jesus in/from/through Whom, in the past, they may have been saved and received eternal life, or are they rejecting the Enemy’s portrayal of a false Messiah cleverly crafted and spun in Law-keeping sects’ doctrines?
If they were truly saved in their past, what will happen to them?
See – I’m thinking we preach the Gospel regardless – to bring the deceived back to have Christ – the REAL Christ - be of full effect again in their lives, and if they were never saved to begin with, to bring them to Christ for the first time!
That’s the beauty of the Gospel: The Gospel corrects error and brings LIFE, so no matter the ailment, the Gospel is the Cure!
Are we seeing Torah folks’ lives from the perspective of God, Who sees not only where they are, but where they’ve been and where they’re going? A deeply deceived person will believe and do really dumb stuff. I’m of the mind and heart to preach the Gospel full preach and let God work out who is saved and who is not – with the understanding that I have but a snapshot of most people’s lives - especially on the internet!
So let this be an exhortation/encouragement for those of you who interact with friends and loved ones who are in the Hebrew Roots Movement and other false belief systems. Don’t take the responsibility of sorting out ‘who’s saved and who isn’t’ on your own shoulders. It’s not your deal. Examine fruit? Absolutely. Call out error? You bet. Tell someone who may very well be saved but walking in error that they’re going to hell? No.
Instead, build them up in who they are in Christ; speak the simple Truths of the Gospel to them - lovingly and clearly to counter the falsehoods with which the Enemy seeks to muddy the waters as he drops the dirt of false doctrines into our streams of faith. If they’re already saved, the Gospel will correct the error they’re in if they’re willing. If they’re not already saved, communicating the Gospel to them will give them the opportunity to be reconciled to God in Christ.
Regardless, results are God’s business, not ours. We are called to speak Truth in Love, not to manipulate in order to get results.
-JGIG
So RedTent, what are you trying to use the Law for?
Will you answer the question or ignore it like the rest?
-JGIG
Law is what the universe runs on. There is natural law that you can see in the stars and how the ocean operates, etc. There is moral law in how God wants our world to operate in shalom. The Holy Spirit is our spiritual guide to law. The word of the Lord tells our intellect about law.
Above the law is God. We are in a fleshly body, and it is only through Christ that we can be cleansed of the sin that is part of our flesh, the law has no power for our salvation. None at all. We are completely dependent on Christ. Yet, it is only through the law that we can live in security and peace. Every time we disregard the law, we must pay even though we go to Christ to be wiped clean and can live with God forever.
I am aware that you, in your fleshly body cannot understand this, and will say it is not so. But it is the truth.
Let's take your list item by item and see what Scripture actually says:
Yes. Romans 7:12.
The law shows us we need Christ
Yes. Galatians 3.
If we love Christ we will obey
Yes. Obey what? God's instructions given to Israel at Sinai or God's instructions given after the Cross? John 6:28-29, John 15:12, and 1 John 3:23-24 tell us what God's commandments are after the Cross.
No. 1 Timothy 1:8-11 says,
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
Right. The Law points out sin and our need for Christ.
The law is given to us for our blessing.
Blessings under the Law are given only for perfect and complete obedience. If you're not keeping the Law 100% perfectly 100% of the time, it brings curses. (see Exodus 23:13, Deuteronomy 5:28-33, Deuteronomy 8:1, Deuteronomy 12:27-28, Jeremiah 7:21-26, Joshua 1:6-9, Galatians 3:10-14, and James 2:8-11)
That's how the Law shows us our need for Christ; in Him every promise God has made is yes and amen, not through the keeping of law. (2 Cor. 1:20)
If we would be saved by the law we would have to obey every one law, and we can't
The Law requires complete obedience; if it didn't, it could not be holy, just, and good. (see all Scripture references above)
No one here is saying that you believe that salvation comes through the Law (except when you spout that Yeshua is the Living Torah nonsense, because Torah clearly cannot save, yet Christ Jesus clearly does!). You are saying, however, that righteousness comes through the Law, and it does not unless one is obeying the Law 100%, 100% of the time. You're 88. If you haven't yet achieved that goal, you better get crackin', because without holiness, no one will see God.
The Scriptures say that God has made a righteousness apart from the Law available in Christ (Rom. 3, 10); Paul - the consummate Law-keeper before his conversion tells us that
8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. (from Philippians 3)
Here's the thing: If you're in Christ, you ARE holy; you ARE righteous. Not based on what you do or have done, but on what Christ has done (see Hebrews 7-10). That's the Gospel.
And many of the many other truths about the law. Why must one truth be used to say other truths are not so?
No one is doing that, RedTent.
-JGIG
The law is perfect and Holy.
Yes. Romans 7:12.
The law shows us we need Christ
Yes. Galatians 3.
If we love Christ we will obey
Yes. Obey what? God's instructions given to Israel at Sinai or God's instructions given after the Cross? John 6:28-29, John 15:12, and 1 John 3:23-24 tell us what God's commandments are after the Cross.
The law is not given to the unsaved
No. 1 Timothy 1:8-11 says,
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
The law will not save, only God can do that
Right. The Law points out sin and our need for Christ.
The law is given to us for our blessing.
Blessings under the Law are given only for perfect and complete obedience. If you're not keeping the Law 100% perfectly 100% of the time, it brings curses. (see Exodus 23:13, Deuteronomy 5:28-33, Deuteronomy 8:1, Deuteronomy 12:27-28, Jeremiah 7:21-26, Joshua 1:6-9, Galatians 3:10-14, and James 2:8-11)
That's how the Law shows us our need for Christ; in Him every promise God has made is yes and amen, not through the keeping of law. (2 Cor. 1:20)
If we would be saved by the law we would have to obey every one law, and we can't
The Law requires complete obedience; if it didn't, it could not be holy, just, and good. (see all Scripture references above)
No one here is saying that you believe that salvation comes through the Law (except when you spout that Yeshua is the Living Torah nonsense, because Torah clearly cannot save, yet Christ Jesus clearly does!). You are saying, however, that righteousness comes through the Law, and it does not unless one is obeying the Law 100%, 100% of the time. You're 88. If you haven't yet achieved that goal, you better get crackin', because without holiness, no one will see God.
The Scriptures say that God has made a righteousness apart from the Law available in Christ (Rom. 3, 10); Paul - the consummate Law-keeper before his conversion tells us that
8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. (from Philippians 3)
Here's the thing: If you're in Christ, you ARE holy; you ARE righteous. Not based on what you do or have done, but on what Christ has done (see Hebrews 7-10). That's the Gospel.
And many of the many other truths about the law. Why must one truth be used to say other truths are not so?
No one is doing that, RedTent.
-JGIG
No. There are physical laws that are present in the universe - they provide order in the cosmos, but it is Christ, the Creator, Who holds it all together. The universe doesn't 'run on' law; it is 'run' by Christ Jesus:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (from Col. 1)
There is not one Scripture that tells us that the Holy Spirit is our spiritual guide to Law.
But you assert that Yeshua is the Living Torah, that the Law cannot save, but that Yeshua does save.
Double mindedness, anyone?
12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Nope. No mention of the Law achieving security and peace in the life of the believer.
Explain to me how a God Who is just will make you 'pay' for disregarding the Law (sinning, yes?), when His wrath was already poured out on Christ at the Cross for all sins?
Where does Scripture say that we 'must pay' for disregarding the Law? Are there earthly consequences for sinning? You bet. Sinning is destructive and distracting, that's why there are so many exhortations in the New Covenant Scriptures for us to not engage in sinning. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but you are implying that God will make us 'pay' for our sins, yes?
Yet Scripture stands opposed to almost every single thing you assert.
-JGIG
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (from Col. 1)
There is not one Scripture that tells us that the Holy Spirit is our spiritual guide to Law.
But you assert that Yeshua is the Living Torah, that the Law cannot save, but that Yeshua does save.
Double mindedness, anyone?
12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Nope. No mention of the Law achieving security and peace in the life of the believer.
Explain to me how a God Who is just will make you 'pay' for disregarding the Law (sinning, yes?), when His wrath was already poured out on Christ at the Cross for all sins?
Where does Scripture say that we 'must pay' for disregarding the Law? Are there earthly consequences for sinning? You bet. Sinning is destructive and distracting, that's why there are so many exhortations in the New Covenant Scriptures for us to not engage in sinning. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but you are implying that God will make us 'pay' for our sins, yes?
Yet Scripture stands opposed to almost every single thing you assert.
-JGIG
] You are listening to lots of scripture, it is good. There are parts that you need to include. When we are completely in Christ, it its true, in Christ we are holy. However, we are also in the fleshly body.
You accuse me of misquoting scripture saying we are saved through the law. I have never said that, I try very hard to be a servant of the Lord not to spout my own opinions. The Lord says that we are not saved through the law.
But scripture would never say, as you seem to imply, that we are not to listen to the law or that we are not to do our best to live within the boundaries of the law. That is what it means when we are told to die to self and live in Christ. Never, in any of scripture are we told to ignore and live outside of law. We are told we can't. We are told we need Christ. But we are never told to purposely live without law. I can't understand why it is so upsetting to people who actually say they take on Christ that any mention of law makes them so upset. Christ would never say to live outside of law.
You accuse me of misquoting scripture saying we are saved through the law. I have never said that, I try very hard to be a servant of the Lord not to spout my own opinions. The Lord says that we are not saved through the law.
But scripture would never say, as you seem to imply, that we are not to listen to the law or that we are not to do our best to live within the boundaries of the law. That is what it means when we are told to die to self and live in Christ. Never, in any of scripture are we told to ignore and live outside of law. We are told we can't. We are told we need Christ. But we are never told to purposely live without law. I can't understand why it is so upsetting to people who actually say they take on Christ that any mention of law makes them so upset. Christ would never say to live outside of law.