Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[JGIG]

Let's take your list item by item and see what Scripture actually says:

The law is perfect and Holy.​

Yes. Romans 7:12.

The law shows us we need Christ​

Yes. Galatians 3.

If we love Christ we will obey
​

Yes. Obey what? God's instructions given to Israel at Sinai or God's instructions given after the Cross? John 6:28-29, John 15:12, and 1 John 3:23-24 tell us what God's commandments are after the Cross.

The law is not given to the unsaved​

No. 1 Timothy 1:8-11 says,

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.​

The law will not save, only God can do that​

Right. The Law points out sin and our need for Christ.

The law is given to us for our blessing.​

Blessings under the Law are given only for perfect and complete obedience. If you're not keeping the Law 100% perfectly 100% of the time, it brings curses. (see Exodus 23:13, Deuteronomy 5:28-33, Deuteronomy 8:1, Deuteronomy 12:27-28, Jeremiah 7:21-26, Joshua 1:6-9, Galatians 3:10-14, and James 2:8-11)

That's how the Law shows us our need for Christ; in Him every promise God has made is yes and amen, not through the keeping of law. (2 Cor. 1:20)

If we would be saved by the law we would have to obey every one law, and we can't​

The Law requires complete obedience; if it didn't, it could not be holy, just, and good. (see all Scripture references above)

No one here is saying that you believe that salvation comes through the Law (except when you spout that Yeshua is the Living Torah nonsense, because Torah clearly cannot save, yet Christ Jesus clearly does!). You are saying, however, that righteousness comes through the Law, and it does not unless one is obeying the Law 100%, 100% of the time. You're 88. If you haven't yet achieved that goal, you better get crackin', because without holiness, no one will see God.

The Scriptures say that God has made a righteousness apart from the Law available in Christ (Rom. 3, 10); Paul - the consummate Law-keeper before his conversion tells us that

8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. (from Philippians 3)​

Here's the thing: If you're in Christ, you ARE holy; you ARE righteous. Not based on what you do or have done, but on what Christ has done (see Hebrews 7-10). That's the Gospel.

And many of the many other truths about the law. Why must one truth be used to say other truths are not so?​

No one is doing that, RedTent.

-JGIG

] You are listening to lots of scripture, it is good. There are parts that you need to include. When we are completely in Christ, it its true, in Christ we are holy. However, we are also in the fleshly body.

You accuse me of misquoting scripture saying we are saved through the law. I have never said that, I try very hard to be a servant of the Lord not to spout my own opinions. The Lord says that we are not saved through the law.

Do you even read what I post, RedTent? I clearly posted this, in the quote YOU included:

Your assertion: The law will not save, only God can do that​

My agreement: Right. The Law points out sin and our need for Christ.​

But scripture would never say, as you seem to imply, that we are not to listen to the law or that we are not to do our best to live within the boundaries of the law. That is what it means when we are told to die to self and live in Christ. Never, in any of scripture are we told to ignore and live outside of law. We are told we can't. We are told we need Christ. But we are never told to purposely live without law. I can't understand why it is so upsetting to people who actually say they take on Christ that any mention of law makes them so upset. Christ would never say to live outside of law.

As the Perfect High Priest of the New Covenant, He would say to live in the New Covenant, not in the Old Covenant, the Laws given to Israel at Sinai.

You wrote,

You accuse me of misquoting scripture saying we are saved through the law. I have never said that, I try very hard to be a servant of the Lord not to spout my own opinions.​

No, I have never said that you say we are saved through the Law, though I have pointed out your double mindedness in saying that Jesus is the Living Torah, that Jesus saves, but Torah cannot. You cannot have it both ways.

And I don't accuse you of misquoting Scripture; you would have to first use Scripture to be accused of misquoting it. In post after post after post after post, you use NO Scriptures. You do just spout your opinions. Anyone can go through and read your posts to see that that is true.

-JGIG

 

[RedTent]

Do you even read what I post, RedTent? I clearly posted this, in the quote YOU included:

Your assertion: The law will not save, only God can do that​

My agreement: Right. The Law points out sin and our need for Christ.

As the Perfect High Priest of the New Covenant, He would say to live in the New Covenant, not in the Old Covenant, the Laws given to Israel at Sinai.

You wrote,
You accuse me of misquoting scripture saying we are saved through the law. I have never said that, I try very hard to be a servant of the Lord not to spout my own opinions.
No, I have never said that you say we are saved through the Law, though I have pointed out your double mindedness in saying that Jesus is the Living Torah, that Jesus saves, but Torah cannot. You cannot have it both ways.

And I don't accuse you of misquoting Scripture; you would have to first use Scripture to be accused of misquoting it. In post after post after post after post, you use NO Scriptures. You do just spout your opinions. Anyone can go through and read your posts to see that that is true.

-JGIG​

My double mindedness saying Jesus is the living Torah? That statement makes no sense, how could I say that? I always use scripture. Do you want me to print the verses the scripture comes from because you are not capable of reading them for yourself. We are supposed to be talking about scripture, not "spout your opinions". We are supposed to be learning from each other, you are simply fighting. You are not talking as a Christian reasoning together at all, you are talking as a demon fighting against scripture, not building but tearing down. If you disagree, say so, this is not disagreeing based on scripture. This is fighting. I am done.​

 

[JaumeJ]

This thread makes me wonder just how many who are against the law realize they are against what was made holy for our reference in good behavior and righteous living? No most seem to be for warm and fuzzy teaching running with itching ears to what pleases their lusts.

Rom 7:12


Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

 

[Hoffco]

This thread makes me wonder just how many who are against the law realize they are against what was made holy for our reference in good behavior and righteous living? No most seem to be for warm and fuzzy teaching running with itching ears to what pleases their lusts.

Rom 7:12


Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Thank you so much brother JaumeJ , This the simple truth, you say the truth. These People are so crazy, They either have no law to follow,OR they follow to much law. They have no idea that our Father is sooo happy when we follow his laws for our rule of Holiness; Thank God we were not made "under the law" of the O.T. as Jesus was, He only kept them perfectly. and He only earned our salvation by perfectly obeying all the laws of God. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

I am sooo happy that under grace I don't have to be perfect to please the Father. I just confess my sin every day , try not to repeat them every day and I get forgiven each day with a new chart to record my deeds for the new day. I know that GRACE reigns in righteous living (30% 0r 99%) and the end will be eternal life. If I sow a good life of faith and duty ,I will reap eternal like. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[JaumeJ]

Hoffco, I do not care how you say you believe. If you confess your sins every day, which is wonderful, I do the same, then you are one who is trying to obey the commandments; there can be no denying this, and you are wonderful for this practice, good family.

One thing, and this is just a reminder for everyone, not an accusation at all. We must always forgive all others their trespasses against us when we pray. The reason I mention this is because I was just led to this ifrom the Master in my reading. It is so very important. Yahweh bless you, and keep you close forever, amen...........your brother........jack

 

[danschance]

Thanks for your kind words about the site =o).

Forums are a favorite place for Torah-folk to glean new converts. There are a number of believers who 'cross over' to the HRM way of thinking, and eventually come out, however, when they begin to take an honest look at the fruit of their belief system.

I'd differ with you that someone who is truly saved puts their salvation in jeopardy; I have a post regarding this issue at JGIG:

• Believers in the Hebrew Roots Movement: Are They Lost?

The key thing that I've come to understand there is this (excerpted from the post above):

There are some from the HRM who convert to Judaism outright. And there arises a real sticky wicket: Are we in a position to judge the heart regarding the salvation/eternal security of one who goes so far as to do something as drastic as that?

Here’s a question worth considering: Are they, by their actions carried out under deception, rejecting the True Christ Jesus in/from/through Whom, in the past, they may have been saved and received eternal life, or are they rejecting the Enemy’s portrayal of a false Messiah cleverly crafted and spun in Law-keeping sects’ doctrines?

If they were truly saved in their past, what will happen to them?

See – I’m thinking we preach the Gospel regardless – to bring the deceived back to have Christ – the REAL Christ - be of full effect again in their lives, and if they were never saved to begin with, to bring them to Christ for the first time!

That’s the beauty of the Gospel: The Gospel corrects error and brings LIFE, so no matter the ailment, the Gospel is the Cure!

Are we seeing Torah folks’ lives from the perspective of God, Who sees not only where they are, but where they’ve been and where they’re going? A deeply deceived person will believe and do really dumb stuff. I’m of the mind and heart to preach the Gospel full preach and let God work out who is saved and who is not – with the understanding that I have but a snapshot of most people’s lives - especially on the internet!

So let this be an exhortation/encouragement for those of you who interact with friends and loved ones who are in the Hebrew Roots Movement and other false belief systems. Don’t take the responsibility of sorting out ‘who’s saved and who isn’t’ on your own shoulders. It’s not your deal. Examine fruit? Absolutely. Call out error? You bet. Tell someone who may very well be saved but walking in error that they’re going to hell? No.

Instead, build them up in who they are in Christ; speak the simple Truths of the Gospel to them - lovingly and clearly to counter the falsehoods with which the Enemy seeks to muddy the waters as he drops the dirt of false doctrines into our streams of faith. If they’re already saved, the Gospel will correct the error they’re in if they’re willing. If they’re not already saved, communicating the Gospel to them will give them the opportunity to be reconciled to God in Christ.

Regardless, results are God’s business, not ours. We are called to speak Truth in Love, not to manipulate in order to get results.
​

-JGIG

I think there is a rist to one's salvation in the HRM if they violate Gal. 5:4.

 

[Karraster]

In studying the Torah, it's easy to see why there is so much objection to it. On the surface it would seem that folks may simply be concerned that the poor soul who studies Torah may loose sight of Messiah. (which I believe with all my heart and spirit did in fact come and was crucified, furthermore He is well defined in Torah as the promise, the hope, and made several appearances btw)

But then it would seem there may be more to it than just surface. Is it possible, that careful study of Torah blasts most theologies to smitherines? I think it does....without a doubt. The only way to have the whole truth is to study the whole truth.

So, my advise is to study Torah. All scripture agrees, so there is only blessing in studying all of it. Selecting pieces here and there, is like the blind man describing the elephant.

Don't be afraid to study Messiah's Torah. He wrote the whole book, remember? The gospel is about the kingdom of Yah Almighty.

I used to believe in pre-trib rapture. I used to believe that once I asked Jesus into my heart that meant I would "naturally" know what His word for the day was, without reading it, supernaturally if you will. I learned these things sitting in church.

That ol adversary just loves it when you don't read your whole Bible. ..and when you don't study prophecy, when you don't keep to the Creator's calendar to know His appointments..when you don't know what is clean and unclean...the list is long, and satan has had his way far too long.

Messiah is returning soon. Watch and be ready, it is one day closer than yesterday.

 

[Karraster]

I think there is a rist to one's salvation in the HRM if they violate Gal. 5:4.

Here's a prime example of misinterpreting the new by not studying the old...the yoke of bondage is sin, not God's law.

Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids.

 

[Kerry]

The Gospel and the entirety of the bible is about the cross. The HBR cult is about self righteousness.

 

[Kerry]

Here's a prime example of misinterpreting the new by not studying the old...the yoke of bondage is sin, not God's law.

Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids.

Yet it was the law that cursed me to the second death and it was the cross that redeemed me from it.

 

[Karraster]

Yet it was the law that cursed me to the second death and it was the cross that redeemed me from it.

You only tell part of it...
That is providing you allowing the power of God's spirit to keep you from sin. Grace is not a license, and everybody that claims the power of Jesus but keeps on sinning has made it of no effect. read Paul.

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[Kerry]

You only tell part of it...
That is providing you allowing the power of God's spirit to keep you from sin. Grace is not a license, and everybody that claims the power of Jesus but keeps on sinning has made it of no effect. read Paul.

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

I am in agreement, but we must not focus on our work. We will be rewarded by the the work that we have allowed the Holy Spirit to through us and not of our own. In others our faith.

 

[Karraster]

I am in agreement, but we must not focus on our work. We will be rewarded by the the work that we have allowed the Holy Spirit to through us and not of our own. In others our faith.

I have to focus on my work or else I'd hurt myself. Some tools I use are dangerous. There is no less deliberation or diligence in study of the Word. But I guess you are saying we shouldn't glory in ourselves, but the One who made us, praise Him alone. And in that I will call you brother, I agree.

 

[crossnote]

The Mosaic Law has 613 commands to be kept as a whole.
It's mans invention to say 'we keep the big 10 but not the civil or religious parts'.
No baby, it's all or nothing.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Mosaic Law and by His death tore down the wall of partition erected by the Mosaic law so that us peon gentiles can partake of the spiritual blessings of the unconditional covenants without having to become Jews.

So if you think you are keeping the Mosaic Law you are deeply deluded and are making Christ's obedience of no effect.

 

[RedTent]

I think there is a rist to one's salvation in the HRM if they violate Gal. 5:4.

The HRM is much more than not being justified by the law! They even study all the sacrifices that were a shadow of Christ to better understand exactly how and what Christ forgives, knowing His salvation is much better. Many outside of HRM say they were of God not Christ, so the only way they associate Christ with any of that is to say Christ got rid of it all, that Christ and His Father had nothing in common.

HRM also takes worshipping Christ a step further, because they know Christ and the Father is one, that nothing Christ said or did was against the Father but Christ always took it a step further. Many outside the movement deny that the Father created the world with precision and law, HRN study it to know the Father and Christ better. Many outside the movement say that to recognize God is to deny Christ. Christ would never say that.

 

[phil112]

................confess your sins every day, which is wonderful, I do the same, then you are one who is trying to obey the commandments.............

My bible tells me if you sin everyday you are a sinner. Being saved means putting off the old man. Repentence means turning from the way you were going. A daily sinner hasn't changed. That is the old lifestyle.
John 5:14, 8:11

 

[Karraster]

The Mosaic Law has 613 commands to be kept as a whole.
It's mans invention to say 'we keep the big 10 but not the civil or religious parts'.
No baby, it's all or nothing.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Mosaic Law and by His death tore down the wall of partition erected by the Mosaic law so that us peon gentiles can partake of the spiritual blessings of the unconditional covenants without having to become Jews.

So if you think you are keeping the Mosaic Law you are deeply deluded and are making Christ's obedience of no effect.

I guess it is all or nothing, Jesus gave all so we can give nothing? To each his own, as for me I will be as obedient as I can, and when I fall I will repent and do right.

We are grafted in, we did not replace Israel. and you grossly misunderstand if you think there is a different definition of sin. Grace in not a license to sin. Do you seriously think Jesus suffered and died so we could be free to sin? That's perverted. It is a lie from the adversary, and replacement theology. God keeps His promises. Forever means forever.

 

[phil112]

.............. Grace in not a license to sin. Do you seriously think Jesus suffered and died so we could be free to sin? ...............

I see this repeatedly said by those who think keeping the sabbath is a command for us today. How about showing just one post where someone said that grace is a license to sin, and/or that we are free to sin. Just one.

 

[Karraster]

Why are some christians so eager to believe God has forsaken Israel? If He lied to them what hope do you have He won't change His mind about you?

I know He is faithful, and He loves anyone who will come to Him. Scripture tells us Messiah will not come again until His brothers call Him Messiah. that's new testament..here it is:For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

in the Hebrew it's even better, you should check it out.

We should be praying for Israel, whoever they are, for that is Messiah's desire, He eagerly awaits that day. and we should too, if we love Him, we love who He loves.