Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

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Oct 31, 2011
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nice skirting of the issue.I am talking of the Mosaic Law. You must keep them as a whole. Do you? Do you keep the least of them? I don't mean try.If you broke one point, one iota or tittle, you are guilty of ALL.
If you are listening to God about how to live, if you are putting on Christ, if you are following the HS within you, you are working at keeping the law. This bringing up that if you keep the law for salvation you must keep it all and asking if anyone keeps it all is a question we looked at a long time ago. Is the reason you don't go around murdering people have anything at all to do with keeping all the law and making yourself perfect so you don't need grace? Wouldn't you say that was a stupid question to ask you?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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"Levitical Priesthood has been REPLACED by a better Priesthood and therefore a necessitated change of the law"

This is true, I agree with you. I do have a thing to add... Not replaced...just a viewpoint shift........

From Carnal to Spiritual
And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

Nothing has changed even though I have it for you
I list these three because I find them to display my point the easiest to others.
Replaced in the sense that the Levitical priesthood was 'replaced' by a better and eternal Priest...Jesus Christ our High Priest.

Hebrews 7:12, 15-16, 18-19 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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Replaced in the sense that the Levitical priesthood was 'replaced' by a better and eternal Priest...Jesus Christ our High Priest.

Hebrews 7:12, 15-16, 18-19 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Finally there is one thing we can agree on, Christ is our new priest, Christ is better. We cannot be perfect through the law, we can be completely cleansed through Christ.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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I must give you credit for being consistent. Were you to read my posts and not just act like you are replying, you will never find my having stated all the laws are to be followed. You would find, however, I have posted on numerous occasions that God gave bad laws that ought not be followed, and we know the difference by learning from the Master Yeshua. You would also know I have posted the laws requiring physical presence in Israel cannot be valid, nor those concerning the Temple, and of course those concerning sacrifice and tithing according to the law. No, you have never understood anything posted by me. As for skirting any issue, this is exactly what you have done here, getting back to the all the Laws because you seem to love the subject. Sorry, your reason does not float. Unless you read what I post as an OP or in response, please do not reply at all. God bless you..............jack

nice skirting of the issue.I am talking of the Mosaic Law. You must keep them as a whole. Do you? Do you keep the least of them? I don't mean try.If you broke one point, one iota or tittle, you are guilty of ALL.
 
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danschance

Guest
You are not thinking things through at all. If the Father and Christ are one, and the son would never do anything against the Father. yet you say you are against the Mosaic law, against any old covenant. The entire bible is about our redemption, and you are against how law works in with that. And, knowing you, that will make you say that I believe I can create my own salvation. Anyone who can create their own salvation would be able to create the world, I didn't create the world.
I never said I was against the Mosaic laws. they are simply fulfilled and do not require anything. We are under the New Covenant and as such, we are under the Law of Christ. We are to obey all moral laws of God because we love Him. We are to love our neighbor which means we will not do anything against him. Finally, we are to be "Spirit led" and do God's will, what ever that is.

No, the bible is not our redemption, the blood of Christ is. No, no one can "create their own salvation".
 
K

Karraster

Guest
You are not thinking things through at all. If the Father and Christ are one, and the son would never do anything against the Father. yet you say you are against the Mosaic law, against any old covenant. The entire bible is about our redemption, and you are against how law works in with that. And, knowing you, that will make you say that I believe I can create my own salvation. Anyone who can create their own salvation would be able to create the world, I didn't create the world.
I never said I was against the Mosaic laws. they are simply fulfilled and do not require anything. We are under the New Covenant and as such, we are under the Law of Christ. We are to obey all moral laws of God because we love Him. We are to love our neighbor which means we will not do anything against him. Finally, we are to be "Spirit led" and do God's will, what ever that is.

No, the bible is not our redemption, the blood of Christ is. No, no one can "create their own salvation".
:)..........
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
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nice skirting of the issue.I am talking of the Mosaic Law. You must keep them as a whole. Do you? Do you keep the least of them? I don't mean try.If you broke one point, one iota or tittle, you are guilty of ALL.
Thank God for grace! You get it that the believer (under grace) can never be perfect.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
When Torah entered the world, (when it was given)..freedom entered the world. The instructions of God is not a burden! Sin is the burden. Cast your cares upon Him, repent of your sins. (you must look to Torah to see what sin is)

Messiah did fulfill the instructions, He didn't take them away. How cruel would our Creator be to believe He has removed our instructions! Messiah fulfilled the instructions, as an instructor demonstrating how it's done, not with malice and rebellion, but serve Him with gladness. Be thankful for His instructions, He did not leave us to our own devices, for hearts are deceptive, but the instructions are good.

The adversary has been saying God's instructions are not really what God said, so go ahead and eat the fruit of death. Don't listen to the adversary!, instead remember our Messiah and live as He instructions being obedient all the days of our lives. For He did not come to destroy the instructions He gave us...yes Messiah gave us Torah, He is the Word. Remember Messiah and He will remember you. How sad and terrible to hear Him say in that great and dreadful day, "Away from Me! I never knew you." That's like saying He don't remember you because you didn't remember Him.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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I never said I was against the Mosaic laws. they are simply fulfilled and do not require anything. We are under the New Covenant and as such, we are under the Law of Christ. We are to obey all moral laws of God because we love Him. We are to love our neighbor which means we will not do anything against him. Finally, we are to be "Spirit led" and do God's will, what ever that is.

No, the bible is not our redemption, the blood of Christ is. No, no one can "create their own salvation".
So, you have to disagree, even about Christ!!! If the Mosaic Laws are fulfilled and require nothing, isn't that saying that God is completely done with them? Altho, I must admit you agree there are moral laws, you just don't see the moral laws in anything Moses was told. Isn't that correct about your position? Isn't it true that your definition of spirit led is that spirit led and led by the written word is not the same at all, but spirit led cancels out the written word that was written on stone only. If you are saying, now, that we are led by the spirit to the laws of God we finally agree on something, whether you think so or not. Don't you say that when it was written on our hearts, the written word doesn't count any more?

You are talking, now, about being under the new covenant, as we all agree on. You aren't mentioning, this time, that because that is what we are under, ALL the old are past. It isn't just a covenant of grace that has always been, it is a cancellation covenant?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
When Torah entered the world, (when it was given)..freedom entered the world. The instructions of God is not a burden! Sin is the burden. Cast your cares upon Him, repent of your sins. (you must look to Torah to see what sin is)
wow. Just wow.

When the torah entered the world. Death entered the world. Freedom? Yeah the jews sure felt free.. Do this completely or suffer the wrath of God. that sure is freedom.




Messiah did fulfill the instructions, He didn't take them away. How cruel would our Creator be to believe He has removed our instructions! Messiah fulfilled the instructions, as an instructor demonstrating how it's done, not with malice and rebellion, but serve Him with gladness. Be thankful for His instructions, He did not leave us to our own devices, for hearts are deceptive, but the instructions are good.
He removed the penalty of not fulfilling the instructions. Unfortunately you as of yet do not understand the very instructions you claim we must obey condemn you. Unless of course you are sinless. Oh wait, even then you have already failed, and "FALL SHORT"



The adversary has been saying God's instructions are not really what God said, so go ahead and eat the fruit of death. Don't listen to the adversary!, instead remember our Messiah and live as He instructions being obedient all the days of our lives. For He did not come to destroy the instructions He gave us...yes Messiah gave us Torah, He is the Word. Remember Messiah and He will remember you. How sad and terrible to hear Him say in that great and dreadful day, "Away from Me! I never knew you." That's like saying He don't remember you because you didn't remember Him.
Do not listen to people like you. You does not understand the instructions were given to show what it would take you to get to heaven on your own (perfection) break even the LEAST of the commands, you are found guilty of the whole law. And justly condemned.

it is obvious you do not understand the law at all. If you did, instead of commanding everyone follow it, You would be thinking God for saving you from being cursed by it. because you would realize just how utterly sinful you are.
 
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Karraster

Guest
wow. Just wow.

When the torah entered the world. Death entered the world. Freedom? Yeah the jews sure felt free.. Do this completely or suffer the wrath of God. that sure is freedom.

He removed the penalty of not fulfilling the instructions. Unfortunately you as of yet do not understand the very instructions you claim we must obey condemn you. Unless of course you are sinless. Oh wait, even then you have already failed, and "FALL SHORT
Do not listen to people like you. You does not understand the instructions were given to show what it would take you to get to heaven on your own (perfection) break even the LEAST of the commands, you are found guilty of the whole law. And justly condemned.

it is obvious you do not understand the law at all. If you did, instead of commanding everyone follow it, You would be thinking God for saving you from being cursed by it. because you would realize just how utterly sinful you are.
Yes, Torah is freedom. Freedom to live without fear. You may wish to live in a world void of God Almighty's instructions, and if so you must love the world, and the world loves you, but that is not why Messiah died for us. His gospel is the Kingdom of God and in that day He returns the world will tremble and try to hide, but there is no escape from God, there is no place you can hide.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes, Torah is freedom. Freedom to live without fear.
Wow, You know nothing of the NT do you? Under the torah all you have is fear. every time you break even th eleast of the law. You are due just punishment. You can not live under the torah and be at peace. all you can do it live in the fear of bondage, Because your required to fulfill it completely.

You may wish to live in a world void of God Almighty's instructions,
lol. I have all kinds of instructions from God. Do this, Do that, Seek me and you will find me. So on and so forth. If you think the do not do's are going to help me live a better life. again you do not understand at all. Do not do by its very existence says that there is a punishment for not doing. But I guess that does not bother you, you can go on sinning, and its perfectly fine,

and if so you must love the world, and the world loves you,
No, If I loved the world I would be like yourself and the jews, Judge those who we think are sinful, Praise myself for being so righteous, and totally ignore the sin in my life, because they are not the bad sins like the evil sinners. I can do as I wish, Since I do not do the "evil" sins, I must be ok.. News flash, ALL SIN to God is evil. Eveb your boasting of following the law to God is evil. But you can;t see this, Your to stuck in rules and regulations, and puffing yourself up and judging others to see this.
but that is not why Messiah died for us. His gospel is the Kingdom of God and in that day He returns the world will tremble and try to hide, but there is no escape from God, there is no place you can hide.
Yep. your right, and if you do not come in him under grace, and stop trying to get to him by your own righteousness. You too will try to run, because when he comes in his glory, you will all of a sudden realize that this whole time, while you thought you were so righteous by following his law. You were in reality so sinful, and unworthy of his love.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Wow, You know nothing of the NT do you? Under the torah all you have is fear. every time you break even th eleast of the law. You are due just punishment. You can not live under the torah and be at peace. all you can do it live in the fear of bondage, Because your required to fulfill it completely.



lol. I have all kinds of instructions from God. Do this, Do that, Seek me and you will find me. So on and so forth. If you think the do not do's are going to help me live a better life. again you do not understand at all. Do not do by its very existence says that there is a punishment for not doing. But I guess that does not bother you, you can go on sinning, and its perfectly fine,


No, If I loved the world I would be like yourself and the jews, Judge those who we think are sinful, Praise myself for being so righteous, and totally ignore the sin in my life, because they are not the bad sins like the evil sinners. I can do as I wish, Since I do not do the "evil" sins, I must be ok.. News flash, ALL SIN to God is evil. Eveb your boasting of following the law to God is evil. But you can;t see this, Your to stuck in rules and regulations, and puffing yourself up and judging others to see this.


Yep. your right, and if you do not come in him under grace, and stop trying to get to him by your own righteousness. You too will try to run, because when he comes in his glory, you will all of a sudden realize that this whole time, while you thought you were so righteous by following his law. You were in reality so sinful, and unworthy of his love.
You are deceived. Learn what wormwood is. Learn what Messiah actually said instead of twisting Paul's words. If Messiah is truly in us we do not rebel against Almighty Father. It's not my place to judge you, I don't even know you. Messiah will judge us all. Messiah wrote the Bible didn't He? I think so.

Revelations 14:12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Spin it however you choose, it's your choice to accept Messiah's Words or mock them.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
No, You are deceived, You think you are righteous, You demand everyone else be, But you are not. And you can;t even see it, You claim to follow the law. But you can't Your like the pharisee who stands on the street corner, Forgive me if I chose to be like the sinner who bows down on the street, unable to look up to God because I know how sinful I am , and am not worthy to even look on him.

Learn what wormwood is. Learn what Messiah actually said instead of twisting Paul's words. If Messiah is truly in us we do not rebel against Almighty Father. It's not my place to judge you, I don't even know you. Messiah will judge us all. Messiah wrote the Bible didn't He? I think so.

Yet here you are judging me. Saying I love sin, and love the world. Guess you do not practice what you preach.


Revelations 14:12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Command does not mean law. God gave many commands outside the law.

next...


Spin it however you choose, it's your choice to accept Messiah's Words or mock them.
Your the one not accepting his words. He is the one who told moses to say cursed is everyone who does not confirm the words of this law by obeying EVERY WORD (every jott and tittle as you would say)

You still think you can break the commands and not be cursed. You must, or you would not preach that we are required to obey something which we can not possibly obey.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Follow the Messiah

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."
 
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danschance

Guest
Yet here you are judging me. Saying I love sin, and love the world. Guess you do not practice what you preach.
It seems like you can not enter into the HRM, unless you are judging others. I have seen this attitude many times with many people. They become elitists, viewing others as less who do not agree with them. They feel like they have discovered deeper meaning and significance by living as the Jews do.

This movement started in 2007 and has grown dramatically, so it is nothing but a modern fad. A fad that is getting others to take their eyes off of Christ and on to Hebrew-isms. it is nothing but a rabbit trail.
 
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Galatians2-20

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2013
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It seems like you can not enter into the HRM, unless you are judging others. I have seen this attitude many times with many people. They become elitists, viewing others as less who do not agree with them.
Your description sounds a lot like most Calvinists I've ran into over the years...
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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It seems like you can not enter into the HRM, unless you are judging others. I have seen this attitude many times with many people. They become elitists, viewing others as less who do not agree with them. They feel like they have discovered deeper meaning and significance by living as the Jews do.

This movement started in 2007 and has grown dramatically, so it is nothing but a modern fad. A fad that is getting others to take their eyes off of Christ and on to Hebrew-isms. it is nothing but a rabbit trail.
How well you paint a false picture, gathering anyone who might use the Creators real name or want to follow Yahweh in truth, and bunching them up and attaching the errors of others to all.

This is very vile and dishonest.

Tell me this, confirm YOUR DOCTRINE with the words of the Messiah, THEN tell me how my doctrine "take their eyes off of Christ"

Im waiting, confirm your disregard of what you call "OT" Law with the words of Messiah?

Confirm you discarding of anything Hebrew by the words of Messiah?

Confirm you discarding of anything YAHWEH SAID by the words of Messiah?

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

You claim the so called "HRM" (which is dishonest because you cant bundle all people togather) but you calim they go away from Messiah, yet I post time after time how Messiah uphods the LAW OF YAHWEH in His Instructions to others and it is not only ignored but actually spoken against.

Since when is actually doing what the Messiah said "taking ones eyes off Him?"
 
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danschance

Guest
How well you paint a false picture, gathering anyone who might use the Creators real name or want to follow Yahweh in truth, and bunching them up and attaching the errors of others to all.
I would exclude you as being on who judges, but many others in the HRM do. You seem genuine.

[/QUOTE]This is very vile and dishonest.

Tell me this, confirm YOUR DOCTRINE with the words of the Messiah, THEN tell me how my doctrine "take their eyes off of Christ"

Im waiting, confirm your disregard of what you call "OT" Law with the words of Messiah?

Confirm you discarding of anything Hebrew by the words of Messiah?

Confirm you discarding of anything YAHWEH SAID by the words of Messiah?

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

You claim the so called "HRM" (which is dishonest because you cant bundle all people togather) but you calim they go away from Messiah, yet I post time after time how Messiah uphods the LAW OF YAHWEH in His Instructions to others and it is not only ignored but actually spoken against.

Since when is actually doing what the Messiah said "taking ones eyes off Him?"[/QUOTE]

They take their eyes off of the things God wants them to do and on to things that do not matter. Their focus is on minutia, like studying Jewish customs and consider the old Testament to be of greater value than the NT. That is how they take their eyes off Christ. The same as a man who is really into sports or whatever. It becomes their focus and even an idol.

Instead we should be about God's will and being Spirit led. Jesus stayed at the Temple for days as a boy. His parents became worried and looked for him. After they found Him, he said "I had to be in my Father's house". Jesus was led by the Spirit as we all should also be. Not worried about our favorite football team or running down rabbit holes chasing what we think is important.

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Titus 3:9

 
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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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I would exclude you as being on who judges, but many others in the HRM do. You seem genuine.
This is very vile and dishonest.

Tell me this, confirm YOUR DOCTRINE with the words of the Messiah, THEN tell me how my doctrine "take their eyes off of Christ"

Im waiting, confirm your disregard of what you call "OT" Law with the words of Messiah?

Confirm you discarding of anything Hebrew by the words of Messiah?

Confirm you discarding of anything YAHWEH SAID by the words of Messiah?

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

You claim the so called "HRM" (which is dishonest because you cant bundle all people togather) but you calim they go away from Messiah, yet I post time after time how Messiah uphods the LAW OF YAHWEH in His Instructions to others and it is not only ignored but actually spoken against.

Since when is actually doing what the Messiah said "taking ones eyes off Him?"[/QUOTE]

They take their eyes off of the things God wants them to do and on to things that do not matter. Their focus is on minutia. like studying Jewish customs and consider the old Testament to be of greater value than the NT. That is how they take their eyes off Christ. The same as a man who is really into sports or whatever. it becomes their focus.

Instead we should be about God's will and being Spirit led. Jesus stayed at the Temple for days as a boy. His parents became worried and looked for him. After they found Him, he said "I had to be in my Father's house". Jesus was led by the Spirit as we all should also be. Not worried about our favorite football team or running down rabbit holes chasing what we think is important.


[/QUOTE]

Ok,so I agree with much you said here, except saying " studying Jewish customs and consider the old Testament" AND BUNDLING THEM AS ONE.

I have heard stories about so called "HRM" or Messainics calling each other Rabbi (forbidden by Yahshua) and even going as far as to bring in "Jewish Custom" aka Talmud aka takanot.

Now for evey story of this I have heard I have heard many more that do not do this at all.

So that would be like saying, "well the pastor at the local christian church is cheating on his wife, man those christians love to cheat on their wives." THIS WOULD BE FOOLISH, the acts of one man OR even a percentage do not mean I can bundle all togather. It wold be like saying all who use the name Jesus and celebrate Christmas accept homosexuality like Desmond Tutu
Same as saying oh, if you use Yahweh and Yahshua you follow Jewsih custom


AND THE BIG THING, I have talked about this many times here, phariseeisim/jewsh custom IS NOT "OT" it is talmud, they made their own feast days, laws, etc THIS IS WHAT MESSIAH SPOKE AGAINST, THIS IS WHAT SHAUL (Paul) SPOKE AGAINST.

The Sabbath and the Feast days were ALWAYS FOR HEBREW and NON HEBREW alike, what mattered is if one followed Yahweh or not.

Seeing as Yahshua said NOTING WOULD PASS UNTIL ALL IS PERFECTED, I take His word for it.

We must study Scripture and let tradition go, jewish tradition as well as western christian tradition, and FOCUS AND FOLLOW SCRIPTURE ONLY.

Exodus 12:48-49, "And when a stranger lives among you and wants to sacrifice the Passover to Yahweh, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near, and sacrifice it; and he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. One Law shall be for the nativeborn and for the stranger who dwells among you."

Isayah 56:1-7, "This is what Yahweh says: Keep the judgments, and do justly; for My salvation is near, soon, to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them; and keeps his hand from doing dany evil. Do not let the son of the Gentile, who has joined himself to Yahweh, speak, saying; Yahweh has utterly separated me from His people. Nor let the eunuch say; Behold, I am a dry tree. For this is what Yahweh says: To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose those things which eplease Me, and hold fast to My covenant: I will give to them, in My House, even within My walls, a place and a Name equal to that of sons and of daughters; I will give them the Name of The Everlasting: YAHWEH; which will not be cut off. Also the sons of the Gentile who join themselves to Yahweh, to serve Him, and to love the Name of Yahweh, to be His servants--everyone who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them and who holds fast to My covenant--I will bring them to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My House of prayer..."