Is The New Apostolic Reformation Heretical?

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Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#21
Ok.

To be clear, I don't agree with NAR on everything. I do consider them Christian, though, and not a cult or something as some seem to consider for some reason. I agree with their emphasis on Miracles and Healings. And I've seen Good Fruits from some of those associated with the movement, like Daniel Kolenda. As I posted on another thread, his ministry CFAN (https://cfan.org.uk/) claims some 85 MN documented decisions for Christ over 40+ years, mainly in the African Continent.

God Bless.
I'm more or less looking at the roots of such beliefs as these movements. Are they foundational to the early church or only the last 150+ years.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#22
I'd say this is an accurate list. The only thing I'd add is the birth of the Pentecostal movement in the early 1900s.
  • The New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR) in the 1940s.
  • The Voice of Healing Movement (VHM) in the 1950s.
  • The Charismatic Renewal Movement (CRM) in the 1960s.
  • The Shepherding/Discipleship Movement (SDM) in the 1970s.
  • The Prophetic-Apostolic Movement (PAM) in the 1980s.
  • The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) in the 1990s.
I don't think the teachings of the NAR are foundational. In my opinion they're counterfeits of foundational teaching; they sound foundational but when the rubber meets the road it's all manmade. For example, "moving in signs and wonders." Signs and wonders were foundational to the formation of the body of Christ, but the "signs and wonders" of the NAR turn out to be bogus. And the reemergence of "apostles and prophets." Apostles and prophets are foundational but the NAR apostles and prophets are fictional; they're false and work by their own authority, not Christ's. And "new wine" and "new wineskins." Jesus taught new wine and new wineskins, but what the NAR means by this is exactly what it says in the diagram: The gospel of salvation is a dead and powerless gospel; doctrine (the "letter") is powerless; tradition has to go. All these things must be replaced by "new wine" and "new wineskins," about which the "apostles and prophets" will be happy to educate us.

The foundation has already been laid. What the NAR want to do, and is doing, is lay an entirely new foundation.

As an aside, Jim Jones got his start with William Branham. He was his "warm-up act" for awhile. He broke with Branham over Branham's racist theology.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#23
There's an excellent book by Holly Pivec and R. Douglas Geivett called A New Apostolic Reformation? A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement. It's probably the go-to book about the NAR. It also talks a lot about the NOLR.
 
Jul 14, 2019
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#24
The true apostles would be poor and persecuted not rich. The church has a favor of the man with a gold ring. You see only certain people get to be apostles. Usually financial founders. They get to buy a spot in the kingdom.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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India
#25
The true apostles would be poor and persecuted not rich. The church has a favor of the man with a gold ring. You see only certain people get to be apostles. Usually financial founders. They get to buy a spot in the kingdom.
Yup, with this I agree, in general, NAR apart for a moment. Nothing is more disgraceful than seeing Pastors brag about being millionaires or even multi-millionaires, while their Poor Flock starves, and they often do nothing to help them. Moreover, when I see preachers demand money unreasonably to buy their 4th private jet, like here: "US preacher asks followers to help buy fourth private jet" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44305873 then I know something has gone wrong somewhere, with these Prosperity Gospel preachers. Meanwhile, on the other hand, I highly respect Pastors like Rick Warren who practice something called reverse tithing (giving 90% to Gospel causes/charities etc), and are also greatly focused on the Great Commission: "And so now, we give away 90% and we live on 10%. That was actually the easy part, what to do with the money--just give it away, because I'm storing up treasures in heaven." https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/2005/10/rick-warrens-second-reformation.aspx That's amazing imo.

But coming back to NAR, what I know is Daniel Kolenda supports it and says he's on first name terms with other people in the NAR movement. From Daniel Kolenda, I've seen similar Good Fruits, like those I mentioned earlier, winning souls in Africa, often both involving great expenses, efforts, time, money etc. So I don't doubt he has a genuine Passion for the Lord and for Souls. About others in the NAR movement, I don't know much. But CFAN supports it and has good fruits to show.

Regarding the Apostles and Prophets thing, I think the whole thing is a misunderstanding of Ephesians 2:20. The verse refers to the NT Scriptures (Apostles) and OT Scriptures (Prophets) as the foundation, just as we speak of Law (Pentateuch) and Prophets (other OT books) etc. The Early Church had 3 Offices. Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons. St. Ignatius of Antioch, an Early Church Father, and disciple of the St. John the Apostle, writing around 107 A.D., shortly after the Book of Revelation was written, makes that clear: "Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop: "See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop." See source online: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm So Apostles and Prophets were not Church Offices as some in the NAR seem to think. Prophets refer to the OT Scriptures and Apostles here refers to the NT Scriptures.

God Bless.
 
Jul 14, 2019
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#26
Apostles and prophets would be giving for sure. I don't know how to give 90 percent unless I was rich and ten percent was a lot. But tithe is important and offering even though it's mandate is old Testament. It shows the heart.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#27
I know more about the NAR than the NOLR. As far as the NAR is concerned I'd say that image is pretty factual. When you read the list of things in the right-hand column that the NOLR/NAR stand for it sounds pretty impressive; but when you understand what they mean by these things they don't always conform to the truth.

For example, the Gospel of the Kingdom. A lot of the apostles in the NAR teach that whatever is a reality in heaven is possible now. No disease in heaven? No disease now. No death in heaven? No death now. This leads to a lot of outlandish claims about raising the dead which can never be verified. The Gospel of Unity is another that stands out. They're big time ecumenists and dominionists. This is tied to their kingdom now teaching.

I do know Latter Rain gave birth to the Manifest Sons of God and the Serpent Seed doctrine. Both are racist.
I also read this movement gave way to modern new age beliefs like Word Faith. Also the prosperity gospel.
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#28
Yes, indeed, and beyond the shadow of doubt.
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#29
One thing I do know: William Branham, faith healer and one of the early promoters of Latter Rain, was as phony as they come. He's been exposed many times over as a liar and conman. Branham is promoted by the NAR and Word of Faithers as this great man with spiritual powers; however, I'd have a hard time thinking of anything more laughable.
Not only a heretic but a blasphemer and a false prophet.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,846
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#30
There's an excellent book by Holly Pivec and R. Douglas Geivett called A New Apostolic Reformation? A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement. It's probably the go-to book about the NAR. It also talks a lot about the NOLR.
Thank you this is what I was looking for.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,846
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#31
Not only a heretic but a blasphemer and a false prophet.
This is why these modern charismatic teachings if rooting in these late 1800s and early 1900s movements then we have a foundation that isn't found in the Bible. It is found in doctrines of these disciples. Unfortunately, I believe many today do not realize this.

It is as if a beacon that attracts the broken, emotionally weak, and promotes infant theology. Being emotional doesn't make one more spiritual than another. Needing to spirit soak for hours while another gets what he needs from a 10 minute prayer doesn't imply we need gimmicks to invite the Holy Spirit. Why play an emotional piano song at the end of each sermon or asking for tithe? Also why do some Christians pray to invite the Spirit when if you are a Christian, you have the Spirit living in you? Why do some suggest by verbally speaking/declaring God's promises makes it more powerful?

This latest prophet gave the church a message that sure seems like the same recipe for every Mega church like a Bethal. But yet they act like it is new and profound.

I been going to this church for over a year to study their interpretation of the sign gifts but I'm still leaning toward skepticism.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,846
4,503
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#32
There's an excellent book by Holly Pivec and R. Douglas Geivett called A New Apostolic Reformation? A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement. It's probably the go-to book about the NAR. It also talks a lot about the NOLR.
The summary of the book states,

“Some critics have linked the NAR movement with mainstream Pentecostalism and charismatics. We do not do this. In fact, it is our contention that the NAR movement deviates from classical Pentecostal and charismatic teachings. This movement has emerged out of independent charismatic churches and, thus, has gained a foothold in many of those churches in varying degrees."

This is what I hope to understand in bold how much of this movement has gained a foothold in these churches.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
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#33
I don't see Apostles still active.

I don't see the need for the way the charismatics interpret the prophet.

But I believe all other gifts are still active but as God wills and miracles still occur.

So I am half a Cessationist.
So, you take a bit of Scripture here and a bit there that supports what you want to accept and believe!

I think taking ALL Scripture (into our experience) is what the Lord wants and requires of us!
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,424
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#34
Apostles in the sense of the full translation of that word is anyone who is sent out (by God of course).

This made apparent and knowing the prophetic writings about the Apostles we know that the Twelve are the only ones who may be categorized as the men of renown referred to in Zechariah 3.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,260
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#35
The summary of the book states,

“Some critics have linked the NAR movement with mainstream Pentecostalism and charismatics. We do not do this. In fact, it is our contention that the NAR movement deviates from classical Pentecostal and charismatic teachings. This movement has emerged out of independent charismatic churches and, thus, has gained a foothold in many of those churches in varying degrees."

This is what I hope to understand in bold how much of this movement has gained a foothold in these churches.
Holly Pivec has done a lot of online interviews which are available on YouTube; you might find something helpful there.

A lot of the NAR "apostles and prophets" come from Pentecostalism, but it's true the NAR isn't directly affiliated with Pentecostalism.

The stated goal of the NAR is a paradigm shift wherein local bodies are no longer governed independently but are governed by NAR apostles and prophets. They teach that leadership by apostles and prophets is the Biblical model and their goal is to return to it. They claim the offices of apostle and prophet have been restored and every church congregation in the world must come under the oversight of NAR apostles and prophets. In many instances they do this by plain old power grabs by infiltrating churches and taking them over. Another way is a misinformation campaign of false doctrine which people are happy to accept.

I just found this video. I haven't watched it yet but it looks like it might be pretty good.

 
Oct 29, 2022
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#36
It is heretical to follow anything that is different from the only true gospel that was announced by Jesus himself. Everything else is the works of men and not from GOD.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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#37
To tell the truth, there are no pagans but people who disobey God, whether Christians or Muslims
The Muslim doctrine is not the doctrine of killing pagans, but that if your country invades them, they can drive the aggressors out of their homes, but they can't do more than that.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,260
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#38
It is heretical to follow anything that is different from the only true gospel that was announced by Jesus himself. Everything else is the works of men and not from GOD.
Geivett & Pivec stop short of saying the NAR is heretical because they (the NAR generally) affirm core Christian doctrines like the divinity of Christ, the trinity, etc. However, I'm not so sure of that. Someone may claim they believe this or that, but does that give them a license to teach and do whatever they want? Maybe technically, by definition, they're not heretics but in a practical sense they are in my opinion.
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#39
I was trying to find the NAR prophet statement where they say a prophet can deliver a wrong prophecy amd not be a false prophet. They wrote it in response to all the false prophecies their affiliates gave comcerning the elections.