Is The New Apostolic Reformation Heretical?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,423
3,680
113
#41
This movement has emerged out of independent charismatic churches and, thus, has gained a foothold in many of those churches in varying degrees."

This is what I hope to understand in bold how much of this movement has gained a foothold in these churches.
I think another way that they've been able to do this is through the growing dissatisfaction with denominationalism. People are hungry for unity and the NAR has taken advantage of this by calling for a new paradigm in which denominationalism is eradicated and one church body established under the authority of NAR apostles and prophets.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#42
View attachment 244768


According to the picture, it is heretical, so I ask those who follow the 5-fold ministry, how do you respond to the NOLR and NAR roots of the 2nd Great Awakening movement?

Was this the position of the early church post-apostolic age?
... their aspiration is that of the Millennial age i.e. they suppose the church should have and will achieve the dominion in this age.

Though there is much to applaud they are wrong in this regard.

+ their greatest fault is they suppose apostleship and the other positions of authority can be attained to by faith.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,888
4,539
113
#43
So, you take a bit of Scripture here and a bit there that supports what you want to accept and believe!

I think taking ALL Scripture (into our experience) is what the Lord wants and requires of us!
You say all but so do I. Where we disagree is interpretation.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,888
4,539
113
#45
Geivett & Pivec stop short of saying the NAR is heretical because they (the NAR generally) affirm core Christian doctrines like the divinity of Christ, the trinity, etc. However, I'm not so sure of that. Someone may claim they believe this or that, but does that give them a license to teach and do whatever they want? Maybe technically, by definition, they're not heretics but in a practical sense they are in my opinion.
True NAR doctrines premote similar ideas like Mormonism where the prophet and apostle are higher ranking than the pastor and what they say is inspired and God's will. It also seems to suggest they can bring God's Kingdom to Earth as they can become like God with power to raise the dead, speak things into existence, and do all the signs and wonders.

Many will not support this but it is largely rooted in The New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR).

Many churches have cherry picked these beliefs and kept the meat while denying the bones.

One must determine will these beliefs being in error, will they lead people away from salvation. If so, then they are heretical and should be preached against. If not then we show grace in to agree to disagree.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#46
One must determine will these beliefs being in error, will they lead people away from salvation. If so, then they are heretical and should be preached against.
Their beliefs have already been scrutinized by others and they are all heretical. Christians should flatly reject their teachings:

1. Extra-biblical revelations (false doctrine)

2. Supernatural signs and wonders (false miracle workers)

3. Dominion Theology (false authority on earth)

4. Apostolic Governance (false apostles)

5. Prophetic proclamations (false prophets)

6. Emotionalism and mysticism
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,423
3,680
113
#47

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,569
661
113
#48
I'd say this is an accurate list. The only thing I'd add is the birth of the Pentecostal movement in the early 1900s.
And then you would be wrong.
Remember, most all denominations are getting more liberal as we near the end, but it doesn't prove they were wrong in the beginning.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,423
3,680
113
#49
And then you would be wrong.
Remember, most all denominations are getting more liberal as we near the end, but it doesn't prove they were wrong in the beginning.
Okay, thanks for your input.
 

markss

Active member
Feb 10, 2020
112
53
28
#51
I don't care for the NOLR or the NAR.

Years ago, after understanding that the church needed all of the 5-fold ministry functioning today, I spent 8 years of looking for someone with an apostolic grace. I found one. In my youth I required evidence.

1. I was not interested in those who primarily promoted themselves as an apostle. There were many of those kinds.
2. I was not interested in congregations that promoted their group as "apostolic". A true apostle would not divide the body of Christ by congregations or giftings. The scriptures only permit a distinction by location.
3. I was not interested in those who sold their "revelations from God" for profit. A true apostle knows that what he receives from God is freely given and thus should be freely given to others.
4. His ministry should be accompanied by power. And the record of said power should be known by many.
5. He should be humble and have suffered much.
6. He should be approachable and he should be willing to be examined by anyone.

So, an acquaintance connected me with such a man. After some correspondence he connected me with two others. I invited those two to our house (they had to fly to where we lived). They came bearing gifts and they asked nothing in return for their time with us. One laid hands on my wife and confirmed the prophetic gift in her. She began to prophesy three days later. He also laid his hand on my side and prayed for healing (he did not know that I had had pain in that side for 18 months) he also spoke that "I would not die young" which was a fear of mine after my grandmother passed away from cancer. There was no way he could have known that. My side began to itch shortly after and was healed completely.

I arranged to meet the man who sent them. He offered to pay for our plane tickets. He put my wife and I up in his house. I asked him questions for days. My wife was the most aggressive in her questions. He answered every one of them and took time to be thorough. He even spoke into my wife's life freeing her from a mindset that she struggled with. There was no way he could have known details about us unless the Lord revealed them to him. If we went to a restaurant he paid. His wife was a lovely woman, too. They gave us all of their time.

Today, we (my wife and I) have walked closely with that man for many years, now. Early on, when we were learning to be godly spouses, we called him often. He would help us see the Lord in our circumstance and the direction He was leading us: often simply confirming what we already saw. Through our relationship to him we've grown in confidence in the Lord and in His provision. He, our spiritual father, shows us the Father in Heaven. Our house is a place of peace and good order that displays the characteristics of the Loving Father.

God is building His house but it's not getting done with three points and a poem on Sundays. It's getting done within relationships between fathers and sons in the Lord: like Paul with Timothy or Paul with Titus, like Jesus with the 11; like John with his children in the Lord and Peter with his children in the Lord. This is the pattern to which we are all reconciled in Christ: God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. God the Father is bringing us back to the original standard He intended for man: that we should walk as sons of God.

Be Blessed
This seems all but lost in today's world!

Much love!
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,423
3,680
113
#52
Here's another excellent video from John and Charles on Latter Rain and The Manifested Sons of God.

 
Jul 14, 2019
215
125
43
#53
The main problem is who decides who is an apostle or not. Many church leaders are just pastors playing apostle I would say. Their quality fits a hundred people tops while good leaders go unnoticed.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,423
3,680
113
#54
The main problem is who decides who is an apostle or not. Many church leaders are just pastors playing apostle I would say. Their quality fits a hundred people tops while good leaders go unnoticed.
The real problem is there are no true apostles now. At least not capital "A" Apostles. They're all playing apostle.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,888
4,539
113
#55
The real problem is there are no true apostles now. At least not capital "A" Apostles. They're all playing apostle.
I been reading the book you mentioned. The NAR is definitely heretical. The problem I see though is that it isn't a movement so easily defined so many fall for portions of their teachings without even knowing it.

For example, how some churches use

Ephesians 2:20 ESV
Built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

They add this passage to support the spiritual gifts of apostle and prophet which is hardly the same.

Apostle in Greek is simply called as one who is sent.

But the Apostles of the early church had higher authority as ones who had seen and experienced the risen Christ. As to why they were able to direct churches and write scripture.

We do not have that authority today.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,423
3,680
113
#56
I been reading the book you mentioned. The NAR is definitely heretical. The problem I see though is that it isn't a movement so easily defined so many fall for portions of their teachings without even knowing it.
Yes, that's an excellent point.

For example, how some churches use

Ephesians 2:20 ESV
Built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

They add this passage to support the spiritual gifts of apostle and prophet which is hardly the same.

Apostle in Greek is simply called as one who is sent.

But the Apostles of the early church had higher authority as ones who had seen and experienced the risen Christ. As to why they were able to direct churches and write scripture.

We do not have that authority today.
The five-fold ministry is really the key. It's the main support that holds up the restoration movement as a whole. According to restorationists, the five-fold ministry has to be in place before the body can reach its fullness, per Ephesians 4. So wherever you find the five-fold ministry you'll find a restoration group and vice versa. It doesn't matter if they have to artificially create apostles and prophets; that's what they'll do, because their whole movement depends on it.

"And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;" Ephesians 4:11-13
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,423
3,680
113
#58
Does anybody know how they pick apostles?
As a rule, apostles aren't picked so much as recognized. Anyone can claim to be an apostle; but if someone demonstrates they have been called by God through sign and wonders, power, authority and a holy life, they may come to be recognized as an apostle. This is how I understand it to work generally for NAR; but there are a lot of five-fold ministry groups out there and they're not all the same.

This video is an example of an NAR recognition ceremony.

 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,043
1,798
113
#59
As a rule, apostles aren't picked so much as recognized. Anyone can claim to be an apostle; but if someone demonstrates they have been called by God through sign and wonders, power, authority and a holy life, they may come to be recognized as an apostle. This is how I understand it to work generally for NAR; but there are a lot of five-fold ministry groups out there and they're not all the same.

This video is an example of an NAR recognition ceremony.

Todd Bentley Investigation found allegations of adultery, sexting, and substance abuse spanning the past 15 years.

More and more of these guy/gals are being seen for who they really are.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,423
3,680
113
#60
Todd Bentley Investigation found allegations of adultery, sexting, and substance abuse spanning the past 15 years.

More and more of these guy/gals are being seen for who they really are.
True. It wasn't that long after his initiation Bentley divorced his wife and married one of his staffers.

In my opinion, apostles aren't chosen for how they can benefit God's kingdom so much as how they will benefit the movement; or at least how they perceive it might benefit the movement in terms of numbers, money and power.