Is the old testament laws still use today?
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The only way man can relate with GOD is to be perfect so if you are going to keep the law you would have to keep it perfectly.
And because you are trying to keep the law/10 commandments will not be acceptable if you are not perfect.Only JESUS/the WORD of GOD who was on earth in the flesh fulfilled all the law.
We are not under law anymore if we were,we would not be able to keep it because of the weakness of the flesh.
Now We are under Grace
And because you are trying to keep the law/10 commandments will not be acceptable if you are not perfect.Only JESUS/the WORD of GOD who was on earth in the flesh fulfilled all the law.
We are not under law anymore if we were,we would not be able to keep it because of the weakness of the flesh.
Now We are under Grace
The Scriptures never divide the laws given at Sinai into categories; the Law is a comprehensive unit.
As for those in Christ, we have died to the Law (all of it):
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (from Rom. 7)
You can read more about the believer's relationship to the Law here:
-JGIG
As for those in Christ, we have died to the Law (all of it):
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (from Rom. 7)
You can read more about the believer's relationship to the Law here:
-JGIG
just-me, are you using the commentary from the AENT or other Aramaic version of the NT? Several leaps are made to arrive at the deduction that 'ordinances' refer to man-made rules. The AENT, in particular, is wrought with error in its commentary (the work of one self-proclaimed 'expert' in Aramaic, btw, and not the work of a team of linguists), mirroring the heretical theology taught at this site. Indeed the editor of the AENT is the primary author of that site and the author of the AENT is a contributing author at the site.
Are there not ordinances in Torah Law?
There is no "Spirit of Torah."
Do a search of the Scriptures.
It is not there.
Your intentional use of a capital 's' there indicates deity.
Do you believe that Torah is God?
One chooses to either be led by the letter of the Law or by the Spirit of God; that is the choice.
It is never a mixture.
Indeed, Galatians 5:18 clearly says, "If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law."
-JGIG
Are there not ordinances in Torah Law?
There is no "Spirit of Torah."
Do a search of the Scriptures.
It is not there.
Your intentional use of a capital 's' there indicates deity.
Do you believe that Torah is God?
One chooses to either be led by the letter of the Law or by the Spirit of God; that is the choice.
It is never a mixture.
Indeed, Galatians 5:18 clearly says, "If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law."
-JGIG
All Scripture is useful for teaching.
The Hebrew Scriptures' purpose is to point to Christ.
Lots of teaching in the Hebrew Scriptures are not Law-centered, but point to a New Covenant, in which God forgives all of our transgressions and chooses to remember them no more; chooses to not hold our sins against us. Passages that prophesy that the Messiah would be the Light unto the nations and that all would find freedom in Him. Those things are confirmed and stated clearly in the New Covenant Scriptures (those written to believers after the Cross).
Once one is in Christ and goes back and reads the OT, if they're focused on the Work of Christ, what He accomplished, and who they are in Him, they can see Him everywhere! It's like reading a mystery, getting to the end to find out the solution and going back and re-reading the mystery with all the answers - you see it all in a completely different light and pick up on things that didn't occur to you because now you know how it ultimately turns out
.
Too many believers read the Book without wearing the lenses of the Finished Work of Christ.
-JGIG
The Hebrew Scriptures' purpose is to point to Christ.
Lots of teaching in the Hebrew Scriptures are not Law-centered, but point to a New Covenant, in which God forgives all of our transgressions and chooses to remember them no more; chooses to not hold our sins against us. Passages that prophesy that the Messiah would be the Light unto the nations and that all would find freedom in Him. Those things are confirmed and stated clearly in the New Covenant Scriptures (those written to believers after the Cross).
Once one is in Christ and goes back and reads the OT, if they're focused on the Work of Christ, what He accomplished, and who they are in Him, they can see Him everywhere! It's like reading a mystery, getting to the end to find out the solution and going back and re-reading the mystery with all the answers - you see it all in a completely different light and pick up on things that didn't occur to you because now you know how it ultimately turns out
.Too many believers read the Book without wearing the lenses of the Finished Work of Christ.
-JGIG
The only laws we have to obey from the Old Testament are moral laws,laws of love,but those laws are always in effect no matter what period of time in history,and can never pass away,which the Bible says,love works no ill towards their neighbor,therefore love is the fulfilling of the law,and the 2 greatest commandments are love God and people.
But the physical ordinances of Israel,Jesus took them out of the way nailing them to His cross,because they were contrary to us,which means they could not offer any spiritual impact on us,which is the only true way you can have a relationship with God that is everlasting,therefore let no man judge you in meats,or drinks,or new moons,or respect of a holy day,or of the sabbath days,which means they cannot tell you to keep them.
If you love people perfectly then you have fulfilled God's law,and you can only do that by the Spirit,and if led by the Spirit you will be spiritually right with God.
But the physical ordinances of Israel,Jesus took them out of the way nailing them to His cross,because they were contrary to us,which means they could not offer any spiritual impact on us,which is the only true way you can have a relationship with God that is everlasting,therefore let no man judge you in meats,or drinks,or new moons,or respect of a holy day,or of the sabbath days,which means they cannot tell you to keep them.
If you love people perfectly then you have fulfilled God's law,and you can only do that by the Spirit,and if led by the Spirit you will be spiritually right with God.
K
That is a misreading of 1 Timothy 4:3 if you are trying to place pork as still unable to be eaten.
The bible makes it clear in the NT in a few places that all food has been made clean now and is to be received with thanksgiving.
The only restrictions the NT gives on food now is not to eat if it causes another to stumble or if you know it was offered to idols. Those two restrictions are all there is now when it comes to food !!!
The bible makes it clear in the NT in a few places that all food has been made clean now and is to be received with thanksgiving.
The only restrictions the NT gives on food now is not to eat if it causes another to stumble or if you know it was offered to idols. Those two restrictions are all there is now when it comes to food !!!
I think both of you are missing the spiritual intent of the scriptures in this respect. Peter had a vision of all manner of animals that God had made clean, and then was called to Cornelius' place who was a Gentile. The unclean meats, even in the Old testament, represent non-Israelite heritage that offered unclean animals in pagan sacrifices, mainly pigs (John 3:16)
That's the "mystery" of the Gospel. Peter didn't go to Cornelius' place to eat bacon. He went there to reveal that Gentiles were not excluded from the Kingdom of God.
That's the "mystery" of the Gospel. Peter didn't go to Cornelius' place to eat bacon. He went there to reveal that Gentiles were not excluded from the Kingdom of God.
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K
No not missing the spiritual aspect at all, but we can not take that passage from Acts and just say it refers only to Gentiles.
The reason being is because that is not the only place the NT says that we can eat whatever we want now, and we are not to hold it against another if they do eat or if they don't eat.
Romans 14:2 says those who believe can eat all things...........
1 Corinthians 10:25-31 says to eat whatever is sold at the market or whatever is served when you go to an unbelievers house and not to refuse nothing unless you know it was offered to idols........
1 Corinthians 8:8-9 says that what we eat does not commend us to God, but only if it causes another to stumble are we not to use the liberty we are given to eat all things to do it in front of them............
Hebrews 13:9 says that we are to be established by grace and not be caught up in strange doctrines about food that does not profit for what a person eats does not matter before God when it comes to salvation......
We are not to go around judging of forcing others to follow the food ordinances of the OT, nor are those who don't follow those ordinances to force not keeping them on others. For neither way gets one salvation, but if one thinks by keeping them they get salvation then they are seeking their justification by the law and not by Christ which is wrong.
S
Jesus Christ and Paul would disagree with you.
Mark 7: 14And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: 15There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.”[SUP]e[/SUP] 17And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?”[SUP]f[/SUP] (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
Romans 14: 14I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
The clean/unclean laws were part of the Old Covenant that separated Israelites from Gentiles, along with the Sabbath, holy days, physical circumcision, and other ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant.
Ephesians 2: 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility
Some continue to attempt to erect this wall again and to throw rocks at those who don't observe them, calling them "false Christians", "so-called Christians" and accuse them of following a fake Christianity.
Unfortunately I was part of such an organization, although they repented. Thank God for deliverance from foolishness.
Concerning Matthew 5:17-19 I have already covered that here:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115415-matthew-5-17-19-sabbathkeeping-claims.html
Mark 7: 14And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: 15There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.”[SUP]e[/SUP] 17And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?”[SUP]f[/SUP] (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
Romans 14: 14I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
The clean/unclean laws were part of the Old Covenant that separated Israelites from Gentiles, along with the Sabbath, holy days, physical circumcision, and other ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant.
Ephesians 2: 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility
Some continue to attempt to erect this wall again and to throw rocks at those who don't observe them, calling them "false Christians", "so-called Christians" and accuse them of following a fake Christianity.
Unfortunately I was part of such an organization, although they repented. Thank God for deliverance from foolishness.
Concerning Matthew 5:17-19 I have already covered that here:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115415-matthew-5-17-19-sabbathkeeping-claims.html
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S
I would agree that is the point of the vision, however other passages cover this subject including the ones I mentioned above.
This reminds me of an account a pastor in my former fellowship told about. Some teenagers in the church were talking about getting drunk and ordering pizza. The pizza came and it had pepperonis on it...the teenagers self righteously yelled at the delivery guy about bringing them pizza with unclean meats. The irony is obvious..engaged in drunkenness and being so indignant about pork on their pizza.
This is the mentality of some who claim these laws apply, such as a young man who keeps forming new usernames to come in here and call non-Torah observers "false Christians"..he uses bogus information on his details while proclaiming to love the Sabbath. He violates a very apparent moral absolute such as lying in order to judge others who don't observe the Sabbath.
This reminds me of an account a pastor in my former fellowship told about. Some teenagers in the church were talking about getting drunk and ordering pizza. The pizza came and it had pepperonis on it...the teenagers self righteously yelled at the delivery guy about bringing them pizza with unclean meats. The irony is obvious..engaged in drunkenness and being so indignant about pork on their pizza.
This is the mentality of some who claim these laws apply, such as a young man who keeps forming new usernames to come in here and call non-Torah observers "false Christians"..he uses bogus information on his details while proclaiming to love the Sabbath. He violates a very apparent moral absolute such as lying in order to judge others who don't observe the Sabbath.
S
Yes..I saw an example of this in my fellowship after they started teaching that the clean/unclean meat laws don't apply. Some lady brought a dish with pork in it to a potluck dinner. She put a label on it saying there was pork in the dish...I guess so that those who had a sensitivity wouldn't eat it..but that caused some to get upset who thought the clean/unclean laws still applied. It was way too soon after the church reforms to be doing that, and it offended at least one family who still had sensitivities. She really shouldn't have made it.
S