Is there a doctrinal issue if you conflate what is from God, and what is from the devil?

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Ariel82

Guest
#41
#41
pottersclay said:
First you said God did not will it but allowed it.......now you say God chose the battle field.....which is it.??

Not picking on you saint but the first you said God did not will but allowed it how do you come to that conclusion???
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Okay here is the difference....you have an enemy who wants to attack you and steal all you have.

It's not God's Will for them to beat you up and take it. However God will ALLLOW the enemy to attack and you to defeat them by staging an ambush.

So God Allows temptation (enemy to attack you) but does not Will them to attack. That is their choice.

God doesn't create our enemies but sometimes allows us to fight our own battles instead of keeping the angelic hedge around us all the time.
 
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Lillywolf

Well-known member
#42
Aug 29, 2018
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#42
For a question like the OP I find Job 37 and 38 and also Isaiah 45 very enlightening.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#43
#43
Ariel82 said:
Okay here is the difference....you have an enemy who wants to attack you and steal all you have.

It's not God's Will for them to beat you up and take it. However God will ALLLOW the enemy to attack and you to defeat them by staging an ambush.

So God Allows temptation (enemy to attack you) but does not Will them to attack. That is their choice.

God doesn't create our enemies but sometimes allows us to fight our own battles instead of keeping the angelic hedge around us all the time.
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Ariel love you sis and I know what your saying or at least trying to say but this is bad theology.
We are no match against Satan for even with Christ temptation he left for a season. Even the arc angel says the Lord rebukes you.
Satan will flee when we seek God and stand on his word.
Greater is he that is in me.....than he of the world. You would never want to do a one on one with Satan.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#44
Dec 6, 2016
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#44
Satan has one desire and that is to take the place of God in our life. Satan is opposed to all God is. He told Eve -eating of the fruit of knowledge would give to her, that Satan had more to give than God.

Today, it is the same. Read you horoscope and it will give you what God does. Take dope and you will be happy as God gives. Don't look to God, Satan tells us, look to him for our fulfillment.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#45
#45
Deade said:
View it as you like. God can use anything He likes. Go pick on PennEd, he is the one that suggested it. :cool:
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right

like He can use someone to tell you otherwise :p
 
L

luigi

Junior Member
#46
Dec 6, 2015
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#46
BenFTW said:
The topic of testing and temptation is usually seen in terms of proving (testing) and resisting (temptation). Temptation not coming from God, as scripture says to let no man say that he is tempted of God. However, often in the discussion of God testing, testing can take a dark and dare I say, twisted turn. People will attribute to God awful and terrible things, or any form of misfortune as part of His chastisement and process of sanctification. I find this bothersome, because it somewhat pits God against His children.

If the devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy how do I see a situation that might mirror these intentions and say that it is of God? If God is for me and not against me, why then would He curse me, not bless me, permit misfortune, and so on? How is it possible to conflate darkness with light?

God does test, sanctify, and chastise, but why through certain beliefs (doctrines) could one, essentially, confuse God for the devil? How is that even possible?
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There does seem to be a fine line between the two.
Temptation is that leading to worldly pleasure/s, which we choose for ourselves.
Testing is that where your choice of not going for this worlds pleasures results in a positive attribute.
 
Angela53510

Angela53510

Senior Member
#47
Jan 24, 2011
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#47
A discussion like this indicates to me, that a lot of people do not understand that God is sovereign.

As far as conflating what comes from God with what comes from the devil, I would tell you to go read the Bible from cover to cover, and then see if you are still confused!

Unless, of course, the OP has his same obvious agenda going on here, and I am the only one that thinks he is talking about signs and wonders, and how they are always from God. People who say they aren’t from God are therefore attributing to Satan what is from God.

Of course, the easy answer to that is to read about the things Pharaoh’s magicians could do, or Simon the magician and other non-believers in the NT could do. Of course, God’s works are greater! But, with the number of outright charismatic charlatans that are on TV these days, claiming to do miracles, it could be that the work of the devil is being attributed to God.

Feel free to correct me if I have misinterpreted the OP!
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#48
#48
Angela53510 said:
A discussion like this indicates to me, that a lot of people do not understand that God is sovereign.

As far as conflating what comes from God with what comes from the devil, I would tell you to go read the Bible from cover to cover, and then see if you are still confused!

Unless, of course, the OP has his same obvious agenda going on here, and I am the only one that thinks he is talking about signs and wonders, and how they are always from God. People who say they aren’t from God are therefore attributing to Satan what is from God.

Of course, the easy answer to that is to read about the things Pharaoh’s magicians could do, or Simon the magician and other non-believers in the NT could do. Of course, God’s works are greater! But, with the number of outright charismatic charlatans that are on TV these days, claiming to do miracles, it could be that the work of the devil is being attributed to God.

Feel free to correct me if I have misinterpreted the OP!
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so little is ever taught about the fact the Bible tells us point blank that the devil will fool (almost) the very elect if God did not intervene

the words 'strong delusion' just do not seem to have as much appeal as 'miracle'

since I have literally lived to see some of these false 'signs and wonders' I shiver when I see how easy it is to fool so many

and it happens in church. IN church

and of course I had better put the fact that yes, God can and still does 'miracles' but His grace and mercy still extended are so overlooked in place of the search for the sensational...
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#49
Sep 8, 2018
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#49
7seasrekeyed said:
so little is ever taught about the fact the Bible tells us point blank that the devil will fool (almost) the very elect if God did not intervene

the words 'strong delusion' just do not seem to have as much appeal as 'miracle'

since I have literally lived to see some of these false 'signs and wonders' I shiver when I see how easy it is to fool so many

and it happens in church. IN church

and of course I had better put the fact that yes, God can and still does 'miracles' but His grace and mercy still extended are so overlooked in place of the search for the sensational...
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IF:

1. The prophecies given to me were accurate and fulfilled and didnt contradict the scriptures

2. If the person giving the prophecies was not mixed up in false doctrines

3. If the person giving the prophecies would appear to be living a holy life.

If these things are in place, i'll take it and run with it.

But more often that not the TV prophecies are like shootin fish in a barrel, meaning, you can just get up and say "Someone in here has been going through hard times, but God has mighty things prepared for you. God will use you for His purposes, dont give up friend, just wait on the Lord" kind of prophecies.
These are the fake ones that apply to LITERALLY almost every person in the church
Then all the people go back home thinking "Oh wow, that pastor REALLY spoke to me today!"

I also sympathize a bit with those deceived into fake signs and wonders. Because they can be powerful if real. Meaning: If you had like back pain, scholiosis or something and you went to be prayed for and it went away, and you got x-rays to prove it.
Now thats a miracle that cannot be denied, in which case this person is ABSOLUTELY convinced its real. Because: He was healed by the name of Jesus being used, and "why would teh devil heal me?"
And to be honest: even I would not dare say that wasnt from God! Because if someone is healed by the name of Jesus, I am AFRAID to attribute it to the devil, no matter whats going on, and I will never do it!
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#50
#50
Hevosmies said:
IF:

1. The prophecies given to me were accurate and fulfilled and didnt contradict the scriptures

2. If the person giving the prophecies was not mixed up in false doctrines

3. If the person giving the prophecies would appear to be living a holy life.

If these things are in place, i'll take it and run with it.

But more often that not the TV prophecies are like shootin fish in a barrel, meaning, you can just get up and say "Someone in here has been going through hard times, but God has mighty things prepared for you. God will use you for His purposes, dont give up friend, just wait on the Lord" kind of prophecies.
These are the fake ones that apply to LITERALLY almost every person in the church
Then all the people go back home thinking "Oh wow, that pastor REALLY spoke to me today!"

I also sympathize a bit with those deceived into fake signs and wonders. Because they can be powerful if real. Meaning: If you had like back pain, scholiosis or something and you went to be prayed for and it went away, and you got x-rays to prove it.
Now thats a miracle that cannot be denied, in which case this person is ABSOLUTELY convinced its real. Because: He was healed by the name of Jesus being used, and "why would teh devil heal me?"
And to be honest: even I would not dare say that wasnt from God! Because if someone is healed by the name of Jesus, I am AFRAID to attribute it to the devil, no matter whats going on, and I will never do it!
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the sad thing, the scary thing, the thing that deceives, is the true mixed with the false

discernment...and not something floating in the air that some call discernment, but seasoned and proven knowledge of scripture for the foundation and then proving all things true as scripture states

far too many run with 'if you can say Jesus is Lord or if you say He came in the flesh' you are good to go

sure, even a deceived Christian can say that...so.....

sometimes you do have to leave it as "I do not know" so that is God's territory and sadly, yet another deception in some cases

having been to hell and back with regards to what passes in so many circles as 'anointed' or 'miraculous' I would rather just not participate in most cases.
 
G

garee

Banned
#51
Mar 28, 2016
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#51
Quantrill said:
Allowed it? I don't think so. (Matt. 4:1) "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil."

I personally don't think satan wanted any part of this test. he knew Who Jesus was. he knew he had no chance.

Quantrill
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The angels are not subject to the gospel They have no idea of what salvation is just as a unbelieving, no faith, human .


Satan void of the faith of God that is needed to understand God was part of the test of trying the unseen spirits in his attempt to make the word of God as it is written with the word it in as it is written to represent the unseen faith of God without effect . When attacking man he would accuse God. When he came to the Son of man it put Satan in a state of confusion .Every time the father of lies would give the Son a of man as vision which some call out of the body which is really Satan bringing in lying signs as false wonders , The Son of man would repeat, as it is written, again and again .Three strikes and the devil was out.
 
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Lillywolf

Well-known member
#52
Aug 29, 2018
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#52
garee said:
The angels are not subject to the gospel They have no idea of what salvation is just as a unbelieving, no faith, human .


Satan void of the faith of God that is needed to understand God was part of the test of trying the unseen spirits in his attempt to make the word of God as it is written with the word it in as it is written to represent the unseen faith of God without effect . When attacking man he would accuse God. When he came to the Son of man it put Satan in a state of confusion .Every time the father of lies would give the Son a of man as vision which some call out of the body which is really Satan bringing in lying signs as false wonders , The Son of man would repeat, as it is written, again and again .Three strikes and the devil was out.
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Where in the new testament does God tell us angels have no idea what salvation for humans is?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#54
#54
CharliRenee said:
Very good question, you have me thinking
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Did not the scriptures say that the angels looked with aw at what christ did? While I think God hid the mystery before his death, for all, so satan would fall for his trap (which he did) I am prety sure they know about it now.. wouldn’t they?

It has me thinking also..lol
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#55
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#55
I think telling the difference between what is of God and what isn't is so simple if you think of how the devil rebelled and why. The devil felt that he could be as fine, in his way, as the Lord. He was puffed up with himself. The devil wants us to look to him the way the devil thinks of himself.

So, it isn't so much what is of the devil as what our goats are. If we give something what belongs to God, we are doing just what the devil wants--to replace God.

You can give the power to take the place of what the Lord does for you to a fancy car or you can use a car in you work. You can meditate on the Lord and His ways and receive joy or you can smoke dope and try for joy.

The devil wants us to replace God in our life. He wanted Eve to replace God's knowledge with what was against God and promised her great things to happen if she would do that. It is the same today. Just read the ads. "Buy this and you will have joy forever".
 
Quantrill

Quantrill

Well-known member
#56
Sep 20, 2018
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#56
garee said:
The angels are not subject to the gospel They have no idea of what salvation is just as a unbelieving, no faith, human .


Satan void of the faith of God that is needed to understand God was part of the test of trying the unseen spirits in his attempt to make the word of God as it is written with the word it in as it is written to represent the unseen faith of God without effect . When attacking man he would accuse God. When he came to the Son of man it put Satan in a state of confusion .Every time the father of lies would give the Son a of man as vision which some call out of the body which is really Satan bringing in lying signs as false wonders , The Son of man would repeat, as it is written, again and again .Three strikes and the devil was out.
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So? What is your point?

Quantrill
 
G

garee

Banned
#57
Mar 28, 2016
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#57
Lillywolf said:
Where in the new testament does God tell us angels have no idea what salvation for humans is?
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Thanks for the reply. I think it could be found below.

Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Not put in subjection the world to come, is reserveved for the chaste virgin bride the Christian church. She alone has not fornicated with the gods of this world and violated the first loving commandment to have no gods before our one God.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

There it appears no mercy for that creation of messengers.

1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

There the woman should show her submissiveness to the Holy Spirit and the angels of God. By the woman covering her representative glory, her hair, as the kind of unseen messengers who long to look into salvation possibly as sign to help bring the message clearer if we do prophesy by brining the gospel . They are unlike God they cannot see into the heart of.

1 Peter1:9-12 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

There again the angels desire to look into the mystery not being subject to it. The gospel to them remains like manna food that begs the question; "What is it ?" as the literal meaning of the word ? Or described as the hidden mana in the book of Revelation to describe the mystery of "What is it" as that which seems to be that which is hidden in parables, the unseen spiritual understanding.
 
G

garee

Banned
#58
Mar 28, 2016
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#58
Quantrill said:
So? What is your point?

Quantrill
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Thanks for the reply, sorry about my rambling I will try and keep it shorter.

The point other than God who is Spirit and light as the good things of God not seen. The point is God is not a man as us? He mins without mother and father beginning of days (a nature) beginning of Spirit life or end of it

We don't wrestle against a flesh and blood as gods in likeness of men seen. The apostate Jews turned that upside down taking away the understanding of God. They were rebuked .Neither do we seek after the things seen as if they were the unseen things of God.

It does not take faith to see something already seen. For who hopes for that which we already have?. Christ is our living hope, a hope that goes above all human hope, the hope of our living God in us. If he begun the good unseen work in us he promises us giving us his faith to believe him He will finish it. He is our living hope

I think it has to do with how faith works, as to whose work the faith it is as it is written and therefore attributed to. Seeing faith without works cannot work it "is dead" alone. Or as informed in James as the body of death without the spirit of life cannot work .

God is our object and sole author of it as it is written . Being written by the finger of God not seen. The gospel is revealed from the faith that comes from hearing God to the faith in order for us to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches (denominations)


Romans 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, an

Invisible things understood by the things made.equals faith. It is not the same as not in respect to the things made (not faith) sight.

I would offer we do not glorify God through the corruptible things made. the bride of Christ the church is a representative glory of hidden glory. It would appear to be the formula for unraveling the spiritual mysteries hid the parable. This is when we apply the prescription given in 2 Corinthians 4:18 which I will offer below

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18

We look at how the word faith is used and to whose work is it attributed to?

His name is Faithful and True the two witnesses of God. True proven by His Faithful work. The faith that works, not of our own selves.

He remains true to His unseen Spirit .As His Spirit of faith works in us as described in Philippians 2 as a labor of His love working with us, in us to will and do His good unseen pleasure what we call a imputed righteousness

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


Jeremiah 42:5 Then they said to Jeremiah, The Lord be a true and faithful witness between us, if we do not even according to all things for the which the Lord thy God shall send thee to us.
 
Quantrill

Quantrill

Well-known member
#59
Sep 20, 2018
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#59
garee said:
Thanks for the reply, sorry about my rambling I will try and keep it shorter.

The point other than God who is Spirit and light as the good things of God not seen. The point is God is not a man as us? He mins without mother and father beginning of days (a nature) beginning of Spirit life or end of it

We don't wrestle against a flesh and blood as gods in likeness of men seen. The apostate Jews turned that upside down taking away the understanding of God. They were rebuked .Neither do we seek after the things seen as if they were the unseen things of God.

It does not take faith to see something already seen. For who hopes for that which we already have?. Christ is our living hope, a hope that goes above all human hope, the hope of our living God in us. If he begun the good unseen work in us he promises us giving us his faith to believe him He will finish it. He is our living hope

I think it has to do with how faith works, as to whose work the faith it is as it is written and therefore attributed to. Seeing faith without works cannot work it "is dead" alone. Or as informed in James as the body of death without the spirit of life cannot work .

God is our object and sole author of it as it is written . Being written by the finger of God not seen. The gospel is revealed from the faith that comes from hearing God to the faith in order for us to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches (denominations)


Romans 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, an

Invisible things understood by the things made.equals faith. It is not the same as not in respect to the things made (not faith) sight.

I would offer we do not glorify God through the corruptible things made. the bride of Christ the church is a representative glory of hidden glory. It would appear to be the formula for unraveling the spiritual mysteries hid the parable. This is when we apply the prescription given in 2 Corinthians 4:18 which I will offer below

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18

We look at how the word faith is used and to whose work is it attributed to?

His name is Faithful and True the two witnesses of God. True proven by His Faithful work. The faith that works, not of our own selves.

He remains true to His unseen Spirit .As His Spirit of faith works in us as described in Philippians 2 as a labor of His love working with us, in us to will and do His good unseen pleasure what we call a imputed righteousness

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


Jeremiah 42:5 Then they said to Jeremiah, The Lord be a true and faithful witness between us, if we do not even according to all things for the which the Lord thy God shall send thee to us.
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Jesus Christ is God and is a Man as we are. All your other ramblings are just that....ramblings.

Quantrill
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
#60
Feb 28, 2016
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#60
ya'll need to get your 'head-phones' on concerning 'ben', he's a '....stirrer, a new ager,
definitely not a dragon slayer for our Christ!!!
 
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