Is there an end of sin?

[VW]

we still do make mistakes in life....no Christian is sinless completely, but Christ did cover our sins and the Father has forgiven us for all we do...but yet there are times where we still make mistakes.

So as you were saying is there an end of sin as a human? By meaning can we completely stop making mistakes in life?....then no, cause even though we are in Christ all Christians make mistakes but we must go to the Father and ask forgiveness.

So we shouldn't worry about sinning, let us try to repent.

I was not so much talking about our sins, rather the result of them on creation, including us. Until all of the effects of sin have been set right, sin is not ended.

 

[VW]

The thing to understand about sin and righteousness is that we are righteous beings, children born of God, who are sinless in our very nature because we have been born of Him. At the same time, we inhabit our bodies, which are fleshly and completely corrupted by sin. And then there is our soul, and this God is changing as we come into His presence, and behold His glory.

 

[zone]

Jesus has fulfilled all of the scriptures, including Daniel 9, but not as you suppose. You have placed way too much emphasis on time, and the continuous flow of time and how we are in time. God is not in time. Jesus left this world from the mountain outside of Jerusalem. While standing with the disciples there, the glorified Jesus was asked by the disciples, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" He answered them saying; "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.?

though you've modified your original position without clearly saying so, i'll ask again re: Daniel 9

please tell me how He has fulfilled Daniel 9 (and how it is not as i suppose)?

is this a "spiritualized" or "mystical" fulfillment from a literal interpreter?

i thought you were adamant He had NOT fulfilled the 7 things listed in Daniel.?

and then to this issue of the harlot:

Jerusalem is not the harlot. Jesus said this of Jerusalem:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now one you shall not see Me until you say, 'Blesses is He who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

so why do you and others continue to overturn The New Covenant, effectively shutting jews out by promising something OTHER THAN THE FULFILLMENT of ALL Promises, JESUS CHRIST.

by allowing the judaization of Christianity, dispensationalists (including you) have reversed the ORDER and purpose of God that israel merge into THE NEW COVENANT, along with grafted in gentiles, making ONE BODY, ONE FAITH, ONE CHURCH...Called after its founder already BACK IN ACTS: Christians.

""O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! "

.................WHO IS THIS?...............WHERE IS THIS?..............you said NOT JERUSALEM.


Luke 11:49
Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:

Revelation 16:6
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Revelation 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration

Revelation 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Revelation 19:2
For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

all those [ABOVE] passages aren't talking about APOSTATE EARTHLY JERUSALEM...but this one [BELOW] is?

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

ya sure.

This is such a work of misdirection.

Sodom and Egypt, but where is it called Babylon? Where does it say that the great harlot lives there?

Do you imagine that when Jesus dwells in a place that it becomes holy?

Good thing he dwells in us, huh?

a work of misdirection?

i....i...can't really accept that you can not read it yourself VW. this aversion to actually saying what the Word says is suspect.

the Bible does not say the great city LIVES THERE. over and over and over i have posted the Scripture that says the great harlot IS...IS...IS....A CITY. a city. she is A CITY. the harlot is A CITY.

she isn't a world system out of NY, she isn't a place on 7 hills in rome...she is a CITY.

that CITY is Jerusalem.

another poster has taken this ABSURD rejection of the clear declaration by God, in His Word, shown to john, by angels and The Risen Christ to a whole new level (but along these same lines of denying what is written) i suppose its a good thing. now we'll see who has believed what:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/21350-jews-harlot-rev-17-a.html

re: Jesus dwelling in present (this world) jerusalem making it holy? i am aware of your doctrine that has Him reigning from there. but that doctrine is false.

that's the problem with denying THE ONE AND ONLY COVENANT, THE NEW COVENANT...it means denying the whole Word of God, sooner or later.

paul makes it abundantly clear (as does john in revelation) there are not TWO CHOICES, but one. but you don't believe that.

Galatians 4

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

in reality:
He Returns, He Judges, and the saints dwell with Him in NEW JERUSALEM on a New Earth with New Heavens...eternity >> the world to come. this whole world passes away, including present jerusalem.

but you still don't believe that.

 

[VW]

I am amazed at you Zone. You state that we cannot accept the clear truth of the word of God, and you deny that there is a 1000 year period when Jesus rules the world, the same thousand years that lies between the first and second resurrections.

Were you alive when Jesus was crucified? Did He know you when He died for you?

I am afraid that the spiritual truth of God's redemptive plan for the entire creation has befuddled you.

Where is scripture is it written that Jerusalem is the harlot, that this city is Babylon? It does not.

Where in your view of things does the river which flows out of the temple, from beneath the throne, which flows all the way to the Red Sea and heals the oceans, where is this river now?

Your strident words are not convincing. Your evidence from other people, is not convincing. Your interpretation of scripture is not convincing.

And you never answered my question about your experience in the holy presence of God within the veil.

 

[zone]

WHAT CITY IS THIS?

Luke 11:49
Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:

Revelation 16:6
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Revelation 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration

Revelation 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Revelation 19:2
For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

all those passages aren't talking aout APOSTATE EARTHLY JERUSALEM...but this one is?

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Matthew 21:11
And the crowds said, “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth of Galilee.”

Here is The LORD JESUS CHRIST speaking of Himself:

Luke 13:33
Nevertheless, I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following, for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.

what city did Jesus identify as the city that shed the blood of the prophets, and would shed HIS BLOOD?

1) san fransisco
2) rome
3) jerusalem
4) other

in case we didn't understand throughout all the rest of Scripture, john was shown what to write and penned under the inspiration of The Holy Spirit, the following:

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jerusalem is not the harlot. Jesus said this of Jerusalem:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now one you shall not see Me until you say, 'Blesses is He who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

I am amazed at you Zone.

Where is scripture is it written that Jerusalem is the harlot, that this city is Babylon?

It does not.

Your interpretation of scripture is not convincing.

VW:
what city is this?:

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

 

[zone]

Until the day of Jesus Christ. Beginning a good work does not show its finish yet. He will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus, that is the phrase Paul used.

And end of sin mean just that, no more sin, any where or any time by any one, ever. If that has happened already, then you are justified in your stance. Otherwise, you are deceived.

What you miss in your approach is the way that God sees sin, and what His reaction to it is. It should be obvious just by knowing the sacrifice He demanded of His Son just so we could be saved. But forgiveness of sins is not the end of salvation, but merely the beginning, the first step. Salvation is coming to know God personally, intimately, as our Father in fact. Any doctrine which prevents this, even any doctrine which does not promote this, is deception.

Until the day of Jesus Christ.
He will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus
And end of sin mean just that, no more sin, any where or any time by any one, ever.

when is the day of Jesus Christ in your dual covenant 1,000 years scenario VW?

is it at The Second Advent?

when He arrives at The Second Advent, is that when sin is ended?

or is it 1,000 years later? is it gradual as He rules from earthly Jerusalem?

your theology has a special dispensation for flesh israel after the Second Advent (which follows the Plan B church in this dispensation).

your theology says Christ has not TRULY made an end of sins for those who believe, thier sins are just covered until the Day of Christ.

on the Day of Christ, you say: And end of sin mean just that, no more sin, any where or any time by any one, ever.

when Jesus returns, how can there be sin for israel for 1,000 years?

 

[VW]

Until the day of Jesus Christ.
He will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus
And end of sin mean just that, no more sin, any where or any time by any one, ever.

when is the day of Jesus Christ in your dual covenant 1,000 years scenario VW?

is it at The Second Advent?

when He arrives at The Second Advent, is that when sin is ended?

or is it 1,000 years later? is it gradual as He rules from earthly Jerusalem?

your theology has a special dispensation for flesh israel after the Second Advent (which follows the Plan B church in this dispensation).

your theology says Christ has not TRULY made an end of sins for those who believe, thier sins are just covered until the Day of Christ.

on the Day of Christ, you say: And end of sin mean just that, no more sin, any where or any time by any one, ever.

when Jesus returns, how can there be sin for israel for 1,000 years?

You are putting words in my mouth, that is not what I said.

You attribute what I said to the day of Christ. I did not say that. In the end, when the new heavens and the new earth are come, when New Jerusalem comes down from God, will there be an end to sin and all of its effects.

Your doctrine has kept you away from God.

 

[zone]

You are putting words in my mouth, that is not what I said.

You attribute what I said to the day of Christ. I did not say that. In the end, when the new heavens and the new earth are come, when New Jerusalem comes down from God, will there be an end to sin and all of its effects.

Your doctrine has kept you away from God.

so, to clarify.

the saints, such as yourself, when Jesus returns receive eternal life, but the others do not for 1,000 years.

how will you receive eternal life at His coming (or how have you received it already/not yet) if your sins are not blotted out?

how will some receive eternal life by believing NOW, if Jesus did not fulfill the following IN FULL:

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

if according to you the above is not 100% fulfilled, i do not know your gospel.

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

 

[zone]

Matthew 21:11
And the crowds said, “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth of Galilee.”

Here is The LORD JESUS CHRIST speaking of Himself:

Luke 13:33
Nevertheless, I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following, for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.

what city did Jesus identify as the city that shed the blood of the prophets, and would shed HIS BLOOD?

1) san fransisco
2) rome
3) jerusalem
4) other

in case we didn't understand throughout all the rest of Scripture, john was shown what to write and penned under the inspiration of The Holy Spirit, the following:

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

VW:
what city is this?:

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

i ask again:

VW:
what city is this?:

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

(bump)

 

[VW]

Sodom and Egypt are two places, a spiritual designation. But that does not, even in the scripture you quoted, make them the same as Babylon.

Do you really want me to explain the plan of salvation to you? Thought not.

 

[zone]

Sodom and Egypt are two places, a spiritual designation. But that does not, even in the scripture you quoted, make them the same as Babylon.

Do you really want me to explain the plan of salvation to you? Thought not.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


this single passage is decribing a PLACE.

it is a real place.

it says dead bodies lie in the streets of it.

the great city is described as spiritually sodom and egypt.

the place is identified as the place where The LORD was crucified.

is this passage literally referring to a literal place where our Lord was crucified?

what motivation would God through john have in denying where our Lord was crucified?

the city is also described as Babylon the Great.

is God saying Jesus was crucified in Iraq? Iran? Rome? the Christian Church? a mystical place deemed "the world"?

where was our Lord crucified? is that meant to be hidden?

if we are able to answer that question, WHERE WAS THE LORD CRUCIFIED, we can then look at all the verses that surround that verse, and see they refer to exactly the same city.

where was Jesus crucified?

"Do you really want me to explain the plan of salvation to you?" ~ yes please.

as you tell me about salvation being drawing near to God, i would like to know HOW God saves.

 

[zone]

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


this single passage is decribing a PLACE.

it is a real place.

it says dead bodies lie in the streets of it.

the great city is described as spiritually sodom and egypt.

the place is identified as the place where The LORD was crucified.

is this passage literally referring to a literal place where our Lord was crucified?

what motivation would God through john have in denying where our Lord was crucified?

the city is also described as Babylon the Great.

is God saying Jesus was crucified in Iraq? Iran? Rome? the Christian Church? a mystical place deemed "the world"?

where was our Lord crucified? is that meant to be hidden?

if we are able to answer that question, WHERE WAS THE LORD CRUCIFIED, we can then look at all the verses that surround that verse, and see they refer to exactly the same city.

where was Jesus crucified?

"Do you really want me to explain the plan of salvation to you?" ~ yes please.

as you tell me about salvation being drawing near to God, i would like to know HOW God saves.

does he save you because you are drawing near? or are you drawing near because he has saved you?

also has the following been fulfilled in full, meaning specifically for israel to whom the 70 weeks were determined?:

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[VW]

The main purpose of my starting this thread, (other than disagreeing with you about sin having been made an end of,) as with almost every other thread I have started, is to describe salvation. Why would I take something like this task as something I would want to do? Because at one time in the past, I believed I was saved, believed with all my heart, but I was not. I was not even in the right ball park. Except for the intervention of God Himself, I would still be in that state.

First of all, salvation is not belief alone. "They draw near to Me with their mouths, bit in their hearts, they are far from Me." salvation is not as you pit it an either or proposition. (I have explained this before, don't you remember?) salvation has one eternal purpose; to gain God worshipers who love Him even as He loves them, who will be with Him forever. He desires us to be with Him where He is, and to stay with Him throughout eternity. So salvation is for God, and also for us.

You asked if we are saved in order to draw near to God, or do we draw near because He has saved us? Neither question is correct. We are saved because God loves us, and wants to have us as His people. But true growth into salvation is when we come to love Him, just as He loves us. And if we are found not drawing near, not being perfected in love, then I say that we have real reason to fear God and His anger. (Notice that I said anger and not wrath.)

As creatures, we are extremely short sighted. And even worse, we always see things in relationship to our gain. Even after receiving the Holy Spirit, we are very prone to see our salvation as a personal benefit. There is great gain in the Lord, gain for us. But this gain comes by our complete transformation into new creatures, created in holiness and purity of Jesus Christ. But this recreation is so that we can draw near to Him to see Him, and not shrink away from Him in shame.

I know my life, and that there is sin in me. I know the utter depravity of my flesh. But of my soul, I have just barely scratched the surface of knowing the depths of my failings. Each time I draw near to Him, his light and His glory reveals a little more of those things which are not of Him to my spirit, so I can be changed to be like Him more, from glory to glory.

Peter let his what I call the eye, which is really his ego, lead him to rebuke Jesus. Then, that night in Jerusalem, Peter denied Jesus, denied knowing Him, 3 times. And Peter suffered shame for this, just before Jesus was taken into heaven. Peter learned something about his heart, about his soul on that day. If we are drawing near to God, we all will have encounters much like what Peter did. This is one of the truths that God reveals to us, and I believe that this is the most important truth, because it is the truth about ourselves. We need this truth to become perfected in love.

Salvation is not a plan, although God planed our salvation. Salvation is not a gift, even though God saves us freely. Salvation is not a benefit for us, although we gain great benefit by being saved. Salvation is life from death in order to worship the living God, forever and forever, in truth, in the Spirit, in love. Salvation is actually the way things are supposed to be.

God is long suffering, not willing that any should perish. But we know that many will perish. God is not above taking the lives of those who refuse Him. In the day when Jesus returns to find the nations gathered against Him, He slays them all. Those slain by the Lord in that day will be many. Some estimate that between 75% and 90% of all people left on the earth to suffer His wrath will perish.

I do not count myself as having attained yet. I know that I am not yet as I shall be when I see Him. But my earnest desire is to know Him, and the fellowship of His sufferings. Why? Because there is no one else to follow, there is no one else who is like Him. I want to be pleasing to Him, to find favor in His sight, above all things, because that is how one feels toward someone they love. This is eternal life.

 

[VW]

The main purpose of my starting this thread, (other than disagreeing with you about sin having been made an end of,) as with almost every other thread I have started, is to describe salvation. Why would I take something like this task as something I would want to do? Because at one time in the past, I believed I was saved, believed with all my heart, but I was not. I was not even in the right ball park. Except for the intervention of God Himself, I would still be in that state.

First of all, salvation is not belief alone. "They draw near to Me with their mouths, bit in their hearts, they are far from Me." salvation is not as you pit it an either or proposition. (I have explained this before, don't you remember?) salvation has one eternal purpose; to gain God worshipers who love Him even as He loves them, who will be with Him forever. He desires us to be with Him where He is, and to stay with Him throughout eternity. So salvation is for God, and also for us.

You asked if we are saved in order to draw near to God, or do we draw near because He has saved us? Neither question is correct. We are saved because God loves us, and wants to have us as His people. But true growth into salvation is when we come to love Him, just as He loves us. And if we are found not drawing near, not being perfected in love, then I say that we have real reason to fear God and His anger. (Notice that I said anger and not wrath.)

As creatures, we are extremely short sighted. And even worse, we always see things in relationship to our gain. Even after receiving the Holy Spirit, we are very prone to see our salvation as a personal benefit. There is great gain in the Lord, gain for us. But this gain comes by our complete transformation into new creatures, created in holiness and purity of Jesus Christ. But this recreation is so that we can draw near to Him to see Him, and not shrink away from Him in shame.

I know my life, and that there is sin in me. I know the utter depravity of my flesh. But of my soul, I have just barely scratched the surface of knowing the depths of my failings. Each time I draw near to Him, his light and His glory reveals a little more of those things which are not of Him to my spirit, so I can be changed to be like Him more, from glory to glory.

Peter let his what I call the eye, which is really his ego, lead him to rebuke Jesus. Then, that night in Jerusalem, Peter denied Jesus, denied knowing Him, 3 times. And Peter suffered shame for this, just before Jesus was taken into heaven. Peter learned something about his heart, about his soul on that day. If we are drawing near to God, we all will have encounters much like what Peter did. This is one of the truths that God reveals to us, and I believe that this is the most important truth, because it is the truth about ourselves. We need this truth to become perfected in love.

Salvation is not a plan, although God planed our salvation. Salvation is not a gift, even though God saves us freely. Salvation is not a benefit for us, although we gain great benefit by being saved. Salvation is life from death in order to worship the living God, forever and forever, in truth, in the Spirit, in love. Salvation is actually the way things are supposed to be.

God is long suffering, not willing that any should perish. But we know that many will perish. God is not above taking the lives of those who refuse Him. In the day when Jesus returns to find the nations gathered against Him, He slays them all. Those slain by the Lord in that day will be many. Some estimate that between 75% and 90% of all people left on the earth to suffer His wrath will perish.

I do not count myself as having attained yet. I know that I am not yet as I shall be when I see Him. But my earnest desire is to know Him, and the fellowship of His sufferings. Why? Because there is no one else to follow, there is no one else who is like Him. I want to be pleasing to Him, to find favor in His sight, above all things, because that is how one feels toward someone they love. This is eternal life.

 

[VRJ]

Sin is the transgression of the law. All the law was fulfilled in Christ. This will be a battle till time is no more.

Revelation 10:6,7; "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: (7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

 

[zone]

The main purpose of my starting this thread, (other than disagreeing with you about sin having been made an end of,) as with almost every other thread I have started, is to describe salvation. Why would I take something like this task as something I would want to do? Because at one time in the past, I believed I was saved, believed with all my heart, but I was not. I was not even in the right ball park. Except for the intervention of God Himself, I would still be in that state.

First of all, salvation is not belief alone. "They draw near to Me with their mouths, bit in their hearts, they are far from Me." salvation is not as you pit it an either or proposition. (I have explained this before, don't you remember?) salvation has one eternal purpose; to gain God worshipers who love Him even as He loves them, who will be with Him forever. He desires us to be with Him where He is, and to stay with Him throughout eternity. So salvation is for God, and also for us.

You asked if we are saved in order to draw near to God, or do we draw near because He has saved us? Neither question is correct. We are saved because God loves us, and wants to have us as His people. But true growth into salvation is when we come to love Him, just as He loves us. And if we are found not drawing near, not being perfected in love, then I say that we have real reason to fear God and His anger. (Notice that I said anger and not wrath.)

As creatures, we are extremely short sighted. And even worse, we always see things in relationship to our gain. Even after receiving the Holy Spirit, we are very prone to see our salvation as a personal benefit. There is great gain in the Lord, gain for us. But this gain comes by our complete transformation into new creatures, created in holiness and purity of Jesus Christ. But this recreation is so that we can draw near to Him to see Him, and not shrink away from Him in shame.

I know my life, and that there is sin in me. I know the utter depravity of my flesh. But of my soul, I have just barely scratched the surface of knowing the depths of my failings. Each time I draw near to Him, his light and His glory reveals a little more of those things which are not of Him to my spirit, so I can be changed to be like Him more, from glory to glory.

Peter let his what I call the eye, which is really his ego, lead him to rebuke Jesus. Then, that night in Jerusalem, Peter denied Jesus, denied knowing Him, 3 times. And Peter suffered shame for this, just before Jesus was taken into heaven. Peter learned something about his heart, about his soul on that day. If we are drawing near to God, we all will have encounters much like what Peter did. This is one of the truths that God reveals to us, and I believe that this is the most important truth, because it is the truth about ourselves. We need this truth to become perfected in love.

Salvation is not a plan, although God planed our salvation. Salvation is not a gift, even though God saves us freely. Salvation is not a benefit for us, although we gain great benefit by being saved. Salvation is life from death in order to worship the living God, forever and forever, in truth, in the Spirit, in love. Salvation is actually the way things are supposed to be.

God is long suffering, not willing that any should perish. But we know that many will perish. God is not above taking the lives of those who refuse Him. In the day when Jesus returns to find the nations gathered against Him, He slays them all. Those slain by the Lord in that day will be many. Some estimate that between 75% and 90% of all people left on the earth to suffer His wrath will perish.

I do not count myself as having attained yet. I know that I am not yet as I shall be when I see Him. But my earnest desire is to know Him, and the fellowship of His sufferings. Why? Because there is no one else to follow, there is no one else who is like Him. I want to be pleasing to Him, to find favor in His sight, above all things, because that is how one feels toward someone they love. This is eternal life.

thank you VW.
you've expressed what it feels like in this flesh body to love The Lord.

what you did not do was tell me how God saves men...according to his own declarations in His Word, not accordng to our feelings.

if, what you allude to, though never quite come out and say (so i'm sure you'll correct me if i didn't grasp it), is accurate: i,.e: sinners who have repented and believed on Christ, stood on The Promise of eternal life through HIS WORK find themselves alarmingly NOT loving the Lord Thy God with all their heart and with all their soul and with all their mind....are they not saved?

because your sanctification is painful to you: do you live in fear that you have not been justified?

you can not draw near except you are drawn.

we've had this discussion many times, and never really get to the bottom line, since i eventually turn to The Word as the final authority, and you turn to your personal feelings/experience.

Jesus fulfilled all Righteousness, VW. the shrinking back in fear at our own inability at this time to, for example, fulfill the first Commandment as He desires, is exactly what we are NOT to do. it's on the ground of Christ's Blood we draw near: not our own worthiness.

John 13:8
"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."

anyways...i wondered about the Plan of Salvation as articulated directly by God through the ultimate Authority The Word, confirmed by your personal testimony, not the other way around. but i hear you.

 

[VW]

thank you VW.
you've expressed what it feels like in this flesh body to love The Lord.

what you did not do was tell me how God saves men...according to his own declarations in His Word, not accordng to our feelings.

if, what you allude to, though never quite come out and say (so i'm sure you'll correct me if i didn't grasp it), is accurate: i,.e: sinners who have repented and believed on Christ, stood on The Promise of eternal life through HIS WORK find themselves alarmingly NOT loving the Lord Thy God with all their heart and with all their soul and with all their mind....are they not saved?

because your sanctification is painful to you: do you live in fear that you have not been justified?

you can not draw near except you are drawn.

we've had this discussion many times, and never really get to the bottom line, since i eventually turn to The Word as the final authority, and you turn to your personal feelings/experience.

Jesus fulfilled all Righteousness, VW. the shrinking back in fear at our own inability at this time to, for example, fulfill the first Commandment as He desires, is exactly what we are NOT to do. it's on the ground of Christ's Blood we draw near: not our own worthiness.

John 13:8
"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."

anyways...i wondered about the Plan of Salvation as articulated directly by God through the ultimate Authority The Word, confirmed by your personal testimony, not the other way around. but i hear you.

No, I don't think you did.

Nice knowing you.

 

[zone]

No, I don't think you did.

Nice knowing you.

why would THAT be offensive?hmmm...

i wondered about the Plan of Salvation as articulated directly by God through the ultimate Authority The Word, confirmed by your personal testimony, not the other way around.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sodom and Egypt are two places, a spiritual designation. But that does not, even in the scripture you quoted, make them the same as Babylon.

Do you really want me to explain the plan of salvation to you? Thought not.

I have told Zone this a few times, Zone refuses to even acknowledge it. No where in ch 17 or 18 in the description of the harlot is sodom and egypt even mentioned. All ZOne is doing is pulling this out of the blue in a feeble attempt to show she is right. She will convince no one but herself that this is the case.

That is unless she can show in Chaptert 11 where the Harlot was being spoken of, Or in 17 and 18 where egypt and sosom are spoken of as the harlot. she is wasting her time.

 

[zone]

I have told Zone this a few times, Zone refuses to even acknowledge it. No where in ch 17 or 18 in the description of the harlot is sodom and egypt even mentioned. All ZOne is doing is pulling this out of the blue in a feeble attempt to show she is right. She will convince no one but herself that this is the case.

That is unless she can show in Chaptert 11 where the Harlot was being spoken of, Or in 17 and 18 where egypt and sosom are spoken of as the harlot. she is wasting her time.

you deniers stay busy.

that's okay: God's Word stands:

New International Version (©1984)
See how the faithful city has become a harlot! She once was full of justice; righteousness used to dwell in her--but now murderers!

New Living Translation (©2007)
See how Jerusalem, once so faithful, has become a prostitute. Once the home of justice and righteousness, she is now filled with murderers.

English Standard Version (©2001)
How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
How the faithful city has become a harlot, She who was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her, But now murderers.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
How the faithful town has become a prostitute! She was full of justice, and righteousness lived in her. But now murderers live there!

King James Bible
How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

American King James Version
How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

American Standard Version
How is the faithful city become a harlot! she that was full of justice! righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.

Bible in Basic English
The upright town has become untrue; there was a time when her judges gave right decisions, when righteousness had a resting-place in her, but now she is full of those who take men's lives.

Douay-Rheims Bible
How is the faithful city, that was full of judgment, become a harlot? justice dwelt in it, but now murderers.

Darby Bible Translation
How is the faithful city become a harlot! It was full of judgment; righteousness used to lodge in it, but now murderers.

English Revised Version
How is the faithful city become an harlot! she that was full of judgment! righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.

Webster's Bible Translation
How is the faithful city become a harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

World English Bible
How the faithful city has become a prostitute! She was full of justice; righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.

Young's Literal Translation
How hath a faithful city become a harlot? I have filled it with judgment, Righteousness lodgeth in it -- now murderers