Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 21 44.7%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 23 48.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 6.4%

  • Total voters
    47
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#42
Why isn't the opposite true. That it is extreme pride and arrogance to say WE are smarter, more enlightened, better people, than those foolish people, to have understood the need of a Savior, and believe and accept Him?

Is God in control? Or only in control of some things. Is God's Will active in everything except who His Children are?:

Matthew 10:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a [a]copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
The only common denominator for all people is "belief" and all people have been given some truth according to Romans 1 but some choose to suppress that truth in unrighteousness.

Our belief in no way diminishes God's sovereignty
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,500
3,642
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#43
The only common denominator for all people is "belief" and all people have been given some truth according to Romans 1 but some choose to suppress that truth in unrighteousness.

Our belief in no way diminishes God's sovereignty
Truth is different than faith.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#44
Yes it is. As is the faith we are given to believe. That is precisely what the verse says.
Many have disputed this ...but unfortunately that is what is generally believed..... so be it.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,500
3,642
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#45
Many have disputed this ...but unfortunately that is what is generally believed..... so be it.
I mean that's what it says. We are also left with the question, if the faith ISN'T a gift from God, then where does it come from?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#46
I mean that's what it says. We are also left with the question, if the faith ISN'T a gift from God, then where does it come from?
Mr PennEd you are so funny, we have discussed this soooo many times, and not only that, I have made a very compelling case!! ;)
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,500
3,642
113
#47
Mr PennEd you are so funny, we have discussed this soooo many times, and not only that, I have made a very compelling case!! ;)
But I noticed ya didn't answer the question.....
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,500
3,642
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#48
Mr PennEd you are so funny, we have discussed this soooo many times, and not only that, I have made a very compelling case!! ;)
Besides, 62.5% of the vote is a Trump=like landslide for election! Yea!
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,006
336
83
#50
REFORMED DOCTRINE OF UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION



ALIASES

Unmerited favor

Sovereign election





REFORMED CONVICTIONS ABOUT UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

  • Adam sinned against God, and as the corporate head of all mankind caused the condemnation of all men.
  • God chose to extend grace (unmerited favor) to certain descendants of Adam before the foundation of the world.
  • He purposed to save only these individuals.
  • These individuals are saved to belong to Christ and are given by the Father to the Son.
  • His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part but was only based on his good pleasure and sovereign will.
  • God gives the individuals he has selected to save the gift of faith.
  • God gives new life to these individuals through joining them to Christ in faith.
  • God’s choice of the sinner is the ultimate cause of their salvation.
  • Sinners do not choose themselves, and God does not choose them ratifying their decision, as that would mean God doesn’t choose at all.
  • God passes over those who are not saved, leaving them to their own devices and sinfulness.
  • Election is a source of the believer’s strength, passion, praise and joy, and the teaching of election is in Scripture for this reason.
  • Election is unconditional; salvation is conditional upon repentance and faith. Election is not equivalent to salvation.
  • Faith and repentance are the effect of election. Regeneration of the elect causes faith and repentance, though.


FREE-WILLER RESPONSE

  • The free-willer response to unconditional election is conditional election.
  • God’s choice of certain individuals before the salvation of the world was based on foreseeing that they would respond to his call.
  • He selected only those he knew would freely accept the gospel.
  • Election is determined solely by what the man would decide in regards to salvation.
  • The faith God foresaw was not given to the sinner by God and was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit but resulted solely from man’s will.
  • It is entirely left up to man who would believe and therefore be elected for salvation.
  • The sinner’s choice is ultimately the cause of his salvation, and not God’s choice.
NOTE: I am using the phrase free-willer to describe the Arminian position, as well as the position of many others with similar theology, simply to accommodate their preference. Some prefer to be called free-willers rather than Arminians, and I understand because I do not like to be called a Calvinist. By condescending to using this term, though, I do not intend to imply that Reformed theology teaches that man doesn’t have free will. Man has free will, but not libertarian free will like their version of free will. Man’s free will is limited by his fallen or regenerate nature, and in that sense, is not libertarian free will. Man’s free will is always subject to his nature, and is subordinate to God’s sovereign will.
I would like for you to explain with scripture why you say that eternal salvation is conditional.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,006
336
83
#51
There you go using the pejorative "free-willers" while objecting to derogatory comments about Reformed Theology.

The true teaching on divine election is that God elects the ones who will obey the Gospel (and be justified) to be perfected -- "conformed to the image of His Son". That is included in the glorification of the saints.

For whom he did foreknow
he also did predestinate

to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate,
them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Then how do you deal with Psalms 53:2?
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
4,784
5,434
113
#52
Why isn't the opposite true. That it is extreme pride and arrogance to say WE are smarter, more enlightened, better people, than those foolish people, to have understood the need of a Savior, and believe and accept Him?

Is God in control? Or only in control of some things. Is God's Will active in everything except who His Children are?:

Matthew 10:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a [a]copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
Hmmmm, good point...🤔
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#53
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a [a]copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
Is this with regards to election or is that reading into the text?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,581
795
113
#54
I would like for you to explain with scripture why you say that eternal salvation is conditional.
I don't believe it is conditional. I believe it is unconditional, if you are talking about unconditional election. I hold a Reformed view, and I believe God elects individuals unconditionally. He regenerates the elect, and causes them to believe and to repent through the liberation resulting from being born again.

I presented the opposite view, though, for comparison purposes. And, the opposite view claims that God elects based on foreseen faith. They believe that the person, in essence, elects himself through his free-will choice to believe and repent.

This would, in essence, mean that God does not choose. And this is a view I reject.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,581
795
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#55
I wonder how many would agree with the 'doctrines of grace' as they are called IF they didnt know it was "Calvinism"
Good question.

By the way, I hate the word Calvinism and hardly ever use it to refer to myself.

The obvious charge will be that its adherents follow a man. I didn't even know Calvin's name when I began to understand predestination. My Arminian pastor told me about him when I brought up what I was learning from Romans back then.

And, then, there's always the bogus claims regarding John Calvin and Michael Servetus, which are highly distorted. Unfortunately guys like Dave Hunt have spread a lot of misinformation in the church.

By the way, i heard a great podcast that displays the historical nonsense regarding Calvin and Servetus by Tyler Vela.

He does a lot of good podcasts, some of which are related to Reformed theology:

https://thefreedthinker.podbean.com...story-matters-calvin-and-the-servetus-affair/
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,073
3,004
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#56
Lol, brother...I am glad you were able to edit before the 5 min were up. I'll admit, I tried to read it before, lol, but when I replied the changes were made. I wish that I could change the He is way, to He is the way. I missed my 5 min window, whaaaa, lol
Good morning from here..or should dI say Buenos días desde aquí?
No offense taken, although I never make typo's or spelling errors….lol
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
794
312
63
#57
Unconditional election is the second doctrine of grace that I would like to cover.

I would like to say that the interaction on this forum concerning Reformed theology has, in fact, entrenched me even deeper, and incited me to do a quick review on the topic.

In fact, I think the doctrines are even more important now.

Why?

Predestination is a major teaching within Reformed theology. God doesn't simply provide his revelation about irrelevant teachings.

Why is predestination important?

1) it inspires praise. Realizing that God has chosen the elect since the foundation of the earth should cause believers to rejoice. We see Paul referring
to election as a reason for praise in Ephesians 1.
2) it inspires courage. Realizing that God is in control, and is not some weak, emasculated idol who is not in control inspires those who are in
covenant with him.
3) it humbles prideful, sinful man, who is forced to realize that God is the potter, and humans are the clay. That is one of the messages of Romans 9.
Man-centered theology makes me retch.

Anyways, the poll is simply, is unconditional election biblical? I will present several biblical texts to support my contention that it is.
Im not sure about the trems "" "" becasue I ahve not found the terms directly, so I don't know 100% what the pertain to, but I know Jesus says this:

John 5:28-29, " 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

John 12:47-48, " 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,218
846
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#59
Don't worry. Only Calvinism thinks this is rocket science. Hence all the theological jargon.
i think thats good way to put it. theological jargon. its so many theological words and terms that seem unnecessary. things like effectual call, general call just seem to over confuse things. keep it simple as possible
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,581
795
113
#60
i think thats good way to put it. theological jargon. its so many theological words and terms that seem unnecessary. things like effectual call, general call just seem to over confuse things. keep it simple as possible
When you get involved in any sports, etcetera, it requires that you learn its' language. The same is true with regards to Christianity. For instance, some new believers don't even know that "the nations" can refer to Gentiles alone, or can refer to Gentiles AND Israel.

Same with the phrase "the peoples".

So, no matter what, there is a learning curve.

In the case of "general call" versus "effectual call", the difference is that believers preach the gospel to everyone, yet they know that only the elect will respond, and this response is because they are one of the "sheep" that Jesus says listen to his voice (John 6, 10) and have been given to him by the Father.

To deny this distinction, between the elect and the non-elect, and two different kinds of calling is really to entertain confusion.

There are reasons for theological language, and regardless of theological language, biblical language needs to be clarified, too, such as my example about "the nations", "the peoples". One can't even read Psalms with a decent level of comprehension until they know how the Bible uses phrases, etcetera.

I learned this trying to teach people in a parachurch ministry. Their eyes may have been running across the pages, but they didn't understand the meaning of the text.

Someone asked me how much Bible I read a day. I told them, two chapters. He bragged and told me that was nothing; he reads like ten chapters a day, in order to make himself appear to be the authority. Well, it was obvious from our conversation that he wasn't reading it in depth and was only letting his eyes glance over the page. I doubt if he understood phrases like "the nations", especially since he claimed Israelites were all black, latino or Native American tribes.

He also wanted everyone to use Yehoshua or something like that to refer to Jesus.

He became so angry with me for pointing out the problems with his claims, that he called me the F word, because I didn't accept them. Then he blamed me for making him cuss. I'm laughing right now thinking about that. :D

I think about anyone here is a girl scout compared to some of the guys I dealt with there.