Is unconditional election biblical?

[Roughsoul1991]

This is always where this debate lands. You think YOU decided, by your intellect and wisdom to conceive and birth yourself to be a Born again Child of God. You had NOTHING to do with your physical conception and birth, so what on earth would make you think you had something to do with your Spiritual conception and birth?
God specifically says it WASN'T by YOUR will (choice)!
John 1:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, NOR OF THE WILL of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.

YOU made a "choice" to put (YOUR?) faith in God? I have asked this question before, and haven't gotten a concrete answer. If this faith you had to believe on Jesus Christ wasn't a gift from God, where did it come from?

And if GOD gifted you that faith, and it is only by GOD'S Will that you are born, as SPECIFICALLY stated above, then why do you insist that YOU are the one who decided to be His Child?

Never said I birthed myself as Gods child. You are assuming that is what belief does.

This is simple Gospel truth. Why else does so many scriptures say to believe if it wasn't a choice?

John 1:12-13 New International Version (NIV)
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Did you not read the first verse? Receive him.

The word receive means 2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered).

Believed in His name.

Believe means in this context as
I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

The hear, believe, repent, and confess Jesus as Lord is the dual relationship of human believing and sacred persuasion by the Spirit = faith-believing. Once confessed or the inviting of the Lord into our heart then it is all God who causes the born again part.

The Bible is a relationship book.

 

[PennEd]

Never said I birthed myself as Gods child. You are assuming that is what belief does.

This is simple Gospel truth. Why else does so many scriptures say to believe if it wasn't a choice?

John 1:12-13 New International Version (NIV)
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Did you not read the first verse? Receive him.

The word receive means 2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered).

Believed in His name.

Believe means in this context as
I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

The hear, believe, repent, and confess Jesus as Lord is the dual relationship of human believing and sacred persuasion by the Spirit = faith-believing. Once confessed or the inviting of the Lord into our heart then it is all God who causes the born again part.

The Bible is a relationship book.

Yes. That is what the second part of the passage amplifies about the 1st part of the passage. Those that receive Him do so because of God's Will, NOT man's will.

I will ask you the same question I asked Roger.

Why do YOU believe?

 

[John146]

Please share, where does it state that in the Old Testament ?

It’s an entire study on the forbidden fruit and the consequences thereof. Way too long for me to post.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will?​

Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.​

Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.​

C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Yes. That is what the second part of the passage amplifies about the 1st part of the passage. Those that receive Him do so because of God's Will, NOT man's will.

I will ask you the same question I asked Roger.

Why do YOU believe?

Uh huh sure...

I believe because it is evidently true.

 

[PennEd]

Uh huh sure...

I believe because it is evidently true.

Can you elaborate on that please. Why isn’t Islam, or Judaism, atheism, Hinduism, Bhuddism, etc... true?

 

[fredoheaven]

You started off well then your last paragraph went unbiblical and undid all of the rest.

A little study on the word "whosoever" tends to favor conditional. rather than unconditional. The word introduces a qualifying clause with conditional or disjunctive force, in other words, it involves a choice.

 

[fredoheaven]

Never said I birthed myself as Gods child. You are assuming that is what belief does.

This is simple Gospel truth. Why else does so many scriptures say to believe if it wasn't a choice?

John 1:12-13 New International Version (NIV)
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Did you not read the first verse? Receive him.

The word receive means 2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered).

Believed in His name.

Believe means in this context as
I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

The hear, believe, repent, and confess Jesus as Lord is the dual relationship of human believing and sacred persuasion by the Spirit = faith-believing. Once confessed or the inviting of the Lord into our heart then it is all God who causes the born again part.

The Bible is a relationship book.

In simple short, the word 'believe' here actually means 'receive'.

 

[John146]

A little study on the word "whosoever" tends to favor conditional. rather than unconditional. The word introduces a qualifying clause with conditional or disjunctive force, in other words, it involves a choice.

But don’t you know it really means whosoever of the elect? And it does involve choice...they have been elected to choose.😀

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Can you elaborate on that please. Why isn’t Islam, or Judaism, atheism, Hinduism, Bhuddism, etc... true?

I first believed as a kid. Never denied God but didn't know what it meant to follow God.

Car accident and chronic pain built my faith in God but still didn't prevent a season of serious doubt.

I began to study all major world religions but the evidence for most religions or beliefs was very poor. Most importantly the religions that make absolute truth claims like Heaven and Hell exist, makes us examine those even more closely. For example Buddhism or Atheism doesn't make a absolute truth claim like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam dealing with soul destination. If any of these was true then it would be in the best interest for all to examine those absolute claims.

I began to study but eventually realized Jesus said he was the only way to the Father. Another absolute truth claim. This invited examination. If proven true then all other religions are automatically false. So I narrowed my examination.

Long story short I no longer doubt the Bible to be true, that Jesus was truly who He said He was. This anchors my faith.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

In simple short, the word 'believe' here actually means 'receive'.

Are you saying the Greek word for recieve is the same as believe?

 

[PennEd]

I first believed as a kid. Never denied God but didn't know what it meant to follow God.

Car accident and chronic pain built my faith in God but still didn't prevent a season of serious doubt.

I began to study all major world religions but the evidence for most religions or beliefs was very poor. Most importantly the religions that make absolute truth claims like Heaven and Hell exist, makes us examine those even more closely. For example Buddhism or Atheism doesn't make a absolute truth claim like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam dealing with soul destination. If any of these was true then it would be in the best interest for all to examine those absolute claims.

I began to study but eventually realized Jesus said he was the only way to the Father. Another absolute truth claim. This invited examination. If proven true then all other religions are automatically false. So I narrowed my examination.

Long story short I no longer doubt the Bible to be true, that Jesus was truly who He said He was. This anchors my faith.

So what I hear you saying is that you believe that Jesus Christ is who He said He is, the Son Of God, and did what he said He did, die for our sin, and was resurrected to life, because of your intellect and wisdom in figuring out that the Bible was true, and other religions were false.

So is it fair to say you came to Christ because you were smart enough to realize that the Word is true?

And if that is true, isn't it also fair to say that you could boast because of that intellect? And others who are not as smart as you can't figure it out?

And if that is not true, then the question remains. Why do YOU believe?

 

[Melach]

@Roughsoul1991

And with that last post, I am bowing out. I know we are at an impasse. I thank you for the discussion.

no you just got smoked thats what happened. calvinist losing an argument? yes its possible.

 

[Melach]

I'm amazed so many make unsubstantiated claims against so called Calvinism, zero evidence to back up their claims (just make an accusation so it must be right since they've stated it i.e. "Total depravity is Gnosticism" one of the most foolish accusations I've ever read, and that's saying a lot). Then to top this off, they're not in the least bit biblically accurate, everything out of context and dismiss clear teachings given them, and always are reluctant to give God all the glory which thing we declare post by post.

All of you who do this need to pause, pray. You really need to think about all of that.

Many martyrs died violent deaths for Christ not wavering from the faith, Jude 1:3, yes, the Reformed faith that you ridicule and attack daily.

hahaha. none of the martyrs fed to lions were of reformed faith. that disease didnt come until much later.

the sister rekeyed already refuted what you guys were accusing leighton flowers of and you talk about accusations and lies there. it would be a full calvinist brainfart if you had added "misrepresentation" there. thats their favorite word to use.

 

[Melach]

A little study on the word "whosoever" tends to favor conditional. rather than unconditional. The word introduces a qualifying clause with conditional or disjunctive force, in other words, it involves a choice.

anyone can be a whosoever amen. dont be deceived by calvinism

 

[fredoheaven]

Are you saying the Greek word for recieve is the same as believe?

Not yet studied Greek here but the English, saving faith is not a mere profession but rather a possession. To receive is to get or come into possession. Accepting this is true, perhaps the Greek for the two means the same. But of course, this is not to force, you have either to believe it or not.

 

[fredoheaven]

anyone can be a whosoever amen. dont be deceived by calvinism

Yep bro, I voted No, here.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Here is what I posted when you gave it a 'x'....



That was post #953 on pg 48 of this thread. Now, that 'x' means you disagreed with that post, right? So, if you disagree with that post, then that means you believe that ppl can come to saving faith outside of reading or hearing the word of God. The bible does say faith comes from hearing, but hearing what? The word of God, or what we call the bible. Yes, they didn't have all 66 books then as we have now. But they still had the word of God that told them who the Christ was, and what He did to save sinners from their sins.

Those who have never heard the gospel can not learn about the Christ via natural revelation. It does not tell them the gospel. The gospel comes from the word of God, the bible.

enjoy your Calvinism

it's not Christianity

what I posted is above your understanding obviously

there was nothing remotely indicating your so called post above

the same with the thread you linked to

you and p4t and other die hard Calvinists cannot see past the TULIP garden and as any ex Calvinist will tell those who have not been involved with this cult like sect, it is well nigh impossible to get through to someone who sees calvin as the hero

as I already said, you folks talk about Calvin all day long but rarely mention Christ

the lying and twisting what is being said is beyond the pale and the only voice you hear is your own

 

[7seasrekeyed]

hahah you nailed it. good job friend.

Let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD."

thats a great verse. i love it. i will try to remember it.

calvinism is really falling apart fast. nothing is working. i dont believe a single one of the tulip points.

IMO, if it were not for actually lying about what others say to counter Calvinism, there would be no debate

lthey are false accusers and the truth is not in them

cheers!

 

[Melach]

you and p4t and other die hard Calvinists cannot see past the TULIP garden and as any ex Calvinist will tell those who have not been involved with this cult like sect

thats what i meant to say. its very cultic. thats what i mean when i said they all talk the same way, have teh same personality(or lack of it) and use the same language. its either a cult of personality because i notice they all even talk with same tone of voice as james whitelie. they are true fanboys
i can actually tell someone is a calvinist pastor from hearing how they speak. not joking they dont need to say anything "calvinistic". i can just tell from the rhythm of what they speak, maybe they are taught to speak that way.