Is unconditional election biblical?

[fredoheaven]

Via the word of course. If you expect me to say otherwise, you are expecting the wrong thing.

However, the Spirit must accompany the word. For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.[1 Cor. 1:18] And also But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.[1 Cor. 2:14] We can witness to lost ppl all day long and if the Spirit does not move upon them to illumine their minds, open their eyes and heart, they will never believe. Why do I say that? in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[2 Cor. 4:4] You guys and gals think all a man needs is a little info to be saved. Not so. They need to be born again, to have their eyes opened. As the Christ told Nicodemus “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”[John 3:3] The new birth precedes anything good coming from a fallen man. And truly believing the gospel is a good thing, no?

And what was the very word of God and the Holy Spirit does in the unregenerate estate of man?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

And what was the very word of God and the Holy Spirit does in the unregenerate estate of man?

You need to reword this my friend. I am not sure what you’re asking me exactly. Thanks.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Umm, so no unregenerate person has the fruit of the Holy Spirit then which is true so that what God is offering to the unregenerate person is not the gift of faith but the gift of eternal life and that is very clear. In Romans 5, this gift prior to conversion, to the unregenerate estate of man is called the 'gift of righteousness

Romans 5:12-21 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

But being born again is how they gain this righteousness. They can’t even see the kingdom, let alone enter it, until they are born again. The new birth precludes any of this. Yet, the new birth and conversion happen simultaneously.

 

[Hevosmies]

Spoiler alert: If you believe God knows the future you already believe in unconditional election. NEXT

There is no other alternative way for future to playout. Praise God He is in control!

I said this on page 30, page 80 and we still going? Facts are that either God knows the future, or He doesnt. If He does, you ALREADY believe in unconditional election I dont care WHAT you say. If He doesn't well then we got much bigger problems to worry about dont we?

 

[Hevosmies]

Lets do a quiz: How many here reading the thread are willing to say they had faith WITHOUT the aid of the Holy Spirit? ANY TAKERS?

Its soul-winning saturday thats what we DO KNOW, cause we know the reformed calvin-worshipers just dont do soul-winning am i right? OH WAIT. My congregation does it weekly. Never will you see me mention Calvin I couldn't care less about the man! I get my theology from the Bible and disagree on MANY THINGS with Calvin. The Bible teaches God WILL SAVE to the uttermost those that He does save and THATS THE END OF IT.

 

[fredoheaven]

But being born again is how they gain this righteousness. They can’t even see the kingdom, let alone enter it, until they are born again. The new birth precludes any of this. Yet, the new birth and conversion happen simultaneously.

And how they are born again? When one believes the Gospel. For because the preaching of the gospel(word of God) is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth and this will take you to 'whosoever will'

1 Peter 1:23 Context

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[garee]

And how the Holy Spirit works in unregenerate estate of man?

I would offer. From my experience, when trying to understand that kind of work as the peace of God that surpasses all understanding. Many do not conclude what I will call; "the fullness of faith". It becomes as it seems short circuited.

Faith works, coming from two sources as one work. Like the Father and the Son to establish the government of God. Loving authority. . . plus. . . willing submissiveness . one untied faith as a work .

Coming from God of Christ . It (faith) then can work in us to both will and do his good pleasure that in turn we can offer towards him our thanks, amen or request..

In and of . Two in order to complete the circle. Can't have faith in Christ unless he first gives us his faith coming from or of Him. By Him freely giving new creatures his faith as a understanding or power. . .then mankind can believe as a anchor of the soul . Previously having no faith, none, not little .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure (power that enables us to believe ) in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

We cannot have faith in (towards) Christ unless we first have been frelly given that faith as the power of (coming from) God in us .

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I would offer an example from James 2.The two little words . . .of and in must be rightfully understood or the commandment in James 2 verse one is made to no effect and the point is lost in so much that faith is a work that Christ works in us. (not of our own self)

The King James applies it properly by using the word of to denote coming from . Many other translations have changed the word of coming from to in .What we would offer towards . And in the end verse 7. . blaspheme the holy name or power by which can believe.

From my experience it in many cases becomes a fashion trend all about clothes what to wear or where to sit. Again destroying the law of faith, separating the faith of Christ from the very work of Christ .(impossible) .Faith is a work. No separation between intent (faith) and performance ( work). cause and effect.. "let there be" and it as a work of faith was good.

Note ….(Purple) in parenthesis my added comment

James 2 King James Version (KJV) My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.(to include one self) For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith,(christs) and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

Because they did not mixing an exclusive faith that comes from hearing God (God's faith)they in exchange accredited it to what the eyes see. Again to include the eye by which he can see our own image. I would think the must is according to the commandment "walk by faith" in verse 1..... have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ. Not what is called mixing faith in Hebrew 4. Therefore not hearing the gospel of rest, as if the kingdom of God did come be observation and they

Not mixing Christ's faith as a work that works in us (not of us). The gospel loses its power. .

Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[fredoheaven]

Hebrews Chapter 7

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Christ is able to save those uttermost that come unto God by him...

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

And how they are born again? When one believes the Gospel. For because the preaching of the gospel(word of God) is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth and this will take you to 'whosoever will'

1 Peter 1:23 Context

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Again, you are placing the effect before the cause my friend. If someone truly believes it’s because one has been saved. These happen simultaneously. But no one believes and then is saved. But they believe because they are saved.

They can do nothing unless the Spirit first quickens them. They then respond to the gospel invitation.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Hebrews Chapter 7

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Christ is able to save those uttermost that come unto God by him...

But there’s a conundrum here. There are none who seek Him. So, how does He saves them that never seek Him?

 

[fredoheaven]

Again, you are placing the effect before the cause my friend. If someone truly believes it’s because one has been saved. These happen simultaneously. But no one believes and then is saved. But they believe because they are saved.

They can do nothing unless the Spirit first quickens them. They then respond to the gospel invitation.

The quickening of the Holy Spirit thus making it alive via the gospel or the word preach and upon the conviction of the Holy Spirit that the sinner responds by believing and that's the scriptures says.

Romans 1:16

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

The quickening of the Holy Spirit thus making it alive via the gospel or the word preach and upon the conviction of the Holy Spirit that the sinner responds by believing and that's the scriptures says.

Romans 1:16

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

All of this happens simultaneously my friend. I think that’s what you’re saying here, correct? They hear the gospel, the Spirit quickens, they believe, and WHAM!, they’re saved. That’s how this works in saving ppl from their sins.

 

[fredoheaven]

Umm, so no unregenerate person has the fruit of the Holy Spirit then which is true so that what God is offering to the unregenerate person is not the gift of faith but the gift of eternal life and that is very clear. In Romans 5, this gift prior to conversion, to the unregenerate estate of man is called the 'gift of righteousness

Romans 5:12-21 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I think we are through with the subject of this 'gift' of God i.e. eternal life.

God bless

 

[Hullexile]

After my initial reaction I am finding this site very informative and educational. Clearly there is a lot I can learn from more spiritually mature members.

So an honest question based on my experience and I would imagine others. Directed at those who agree with the Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election.

I am 100% confident that I am saved. This would mean I was one of the elect from the beginning, correct?

Why then did I spend the first 50 years of my life saying the Bible was crap, your imaginary friend was evil and I might as well believe in Snow White and the seven dwarfs?

What would make someone who was elect behave like that?

I am not trying to be provocative, argumentative or anything, just trying to get my rather slow head round it.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I think we are through with the subject of this 'gift' of God i.e. eternal life.

God bless

Where do you disagree with my last post my friend? Please expound.

 

[garee]

And how they are born again? When one believes the Gospel. For because the preaching of the gospel(word of God) is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth and this will take you to 'whosoever will'

1 Peter 1:23 Context

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.



Romans 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Its seems whosoever "did" believe. It reads. . to every one that believeth. Not . . will believeth. Believe what? Beleive who?

The loving commandment is to believe upon the lord Jesus and as a work of him working in you. . . . you will be saved.. Can't believe nothing .Nothing causes nothing.

God must do the first works giving us ears and a new resting heart making our load lighter. .

Those that are given the will of God that come by hearing. . it is to make sure they were not seeking after there own will .He works in us to perform his . In doing so His Spirit witnesses to our new spirit we are sons of God

1 John 3:1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

After my initial reaction I am finding this site very informative and educational. Clearly there is a lot I can learn from more spiritually mature members.

So an honest question based on my experience and I would imagine others. Directed at those who agree with the Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election.

I am 100% confident that I am saved. This would mean I was one of the elect from the beginning, correct?

Why then did I spend the first 50 years of my life saying the Bible was crap, your imaginary friend was evil and I might as well believe in Snow White and the seven dwarfs?

What would make someone who was elect behave like that?

I am not trying to be provocative, argumentative or anything, just trying to get my rather slow head round it.

Why would you do all that? Because you were dead in transgressions and sins[Eph. 2:3]. Your mind was blinded by Satan so that you couldn’t even see the light of the gospel of the glory of the Christ[2 Cor. 4:4]. You were His enemy[Romans 5:10], were hostile towards Him and hated Him[Romans 8:7]. Other than that, you were an alright guy. Seriously, that’s why you were the way you were. You were acting in accordance to your nature.

Remember, the elect were elected unto salvation, not born saved. God’s election of sinners took place before the creation of the world[Eph. 1:4] but conversion takes place in time, when you hear, repent and believe the gospel[Mark 1:15].

 

[fredoheaven]

All of this happens simultaneously my friend. I think that’s what you’re saying here, correct? They hear the gospel, the Spirit quickens, they believe, and WHAM!, they’re saved. That’s how this works in saving ppl from their sins.

No. The scripture is clear and simple. Hear the gospel/word, the Holy Spirit convicts the sinner, the sinner changes his mind by responding through faith in Christ and bang he has given a new life.

Ephesians 1:13 Context

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

 

[fredoheaven]

God must do the first works giving us ears and a new resting heart making our load lighter. .

That's right, God must do the first works and Christ already did! Amen!

John Chapter 3

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

No. The scripture is clear and simple. Hear the gospel/word, the Holy Spirit convicts the sinner, the sinner changes his mind by responding through faith in Christ and bang he has given a new life.

Ephesians 1:13 Context

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

Again my friend, you putting the onus of salvation on the sinner doing something and not God doing something, i.e. quickening them. That precludes anything good coming from them, and believing the gospel is a good thing.

The Christ said ”repent and believe in the gospel.”[Mark 1:15] I can show you at least four places that even repentance is a gift of God. Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, Romans 2:4 and 2 Timothy 2:25. So, by saying faith and repentance(two things very necessary in being saved) are gifts of God, it puts all the onus rightly on Him in saving ppl from their sins.