Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
680
113
#21
yes, which is satisfied if at least one generation will endure forever and ever, without concluding that new generations will continue to arise forever and ever. as in, the generation of which He is the Firstborn: the generation of those resurrected to eternal life
Which generation "endures" for ever and ever Bones?

Ecc 1:4 A generation goes and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,310
3,875
113
#22
There are instances when the Word refers to a generation of the flesh and others where it refers to the generation of the saints, the souls that is.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
680
113
#24
There are instances when the Word refers to a generation of the flesh and others where it refers to the generation of the saints, the souls that is.
Where is that reference J?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,436
8,280
113
#25
Which generation "endures" for ever and ever Bones?

Ecc 1:4 A generation goes and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever.
For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
(Romans 8:29)
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,310
3,875
113
#26
Where is that reference J?
I have been taught by the Word for so many decades, but I have never paid attention to chapter and verse, always relying on the Holy Spirit. If you wish to believe I am imagining things or worsee yet, lying, go ahead.

We are not here to put each other on trial, even when discussing the teachings of Jesus Christ.


Sinse I have lost most of my vision I cannot read teh printed Word much anymore, though I have read through it many times over the past half century.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
8,745
2,516
113
55
#27
Where is that reference J?
Yes, I would like an answer to this without the excuses.

With much biblical acumen claimed, certainly one text, of all the reading claimed, could be provided. I'd think. :unsure::whistle:
 

BaptistBibleBeliever

Well-known member
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,025
113
66
Illinois
#28
I have been taught by the Word for so many decades, but I have never paid attention to chapter and verse, always relying on the Holy Spirit. If you wish to believe I am imagining things or worsee yet, lying, go ahead.

We are not here to put each other on trial, even when discussing the teachings of Jesus Christ.


Sinse I have lost most of my vision I cannot read teh printed Word much anymore, though I have read through it many times over the past half century.
I’m truly sorry for your loss - I could ensue almost st anything but that! I truly pray that is not a storm God intends to put me through!
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
680
113
#29
For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
(Romans 8:29)
That does not make them the "everlasting" generation in context with Eph 3:21 Bones.

If you want to make believers a "generation" as in a type then "genos" in Greek would apply not aion and "genea" in Eph 3:21.

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation (Greek - genos), a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

I would agree that all believers in successive generations are a chosen genos, but that does not nullify Paul's statement "to all generations forever and ever."
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,436
8,280
113
#30
That does not make them the "everlasting" generation in context with Eph 3:21 Bones.

If you want to make believers a "generation" as in a type then "genos" in Greek would apply not aion and "genea" in Eph 3:21.

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation (Greek - genos), a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

I would agree that all believers in successive generations are a chosen genos, but that does not nullify Paul's statement "to all generations forever and ever."

thank you that's informative :)
& perhaps 1 Peter 2:9 is an example of what @JaumeJ was speaking of?



'to all generations forever and ever' doesn't need an infinite number of generations to be true. it only needs His glory to be everlasting and arguably for at least one generation to exist and glorify Him - i say arguably because He is not without glory even when no generations exist and are ascribing it to Him ((per "the glory I had with You before the world existed" John 17:5)). 'all generations' doesn't have to be a set with an infinite number of elements in it, and i could argue that it still satisfies the statement if it is the empty set. what's being said is ((as i understand)) is that His glory is everlasting and covers the set of 'all generations' -- so if there is an infinte number of generations? His glory is a bigger infinity. if there is a finite number of generations? then His glory is obviously throughout them all.

__________________________

The Queen of the South will rise up with the men of this generation at the judgment and condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.
(Luke 11:32)

here is an example of a generation which don't cease to exist even after it has passed in an earthly sense of the members of it having died in the flesh. that a generation persists beyond it's physical end in earth-time shows His glory can be through all generations infinitely with a finite number of generations.

if i'm correct in all this, then 'will we conceive and bear children perpetually in the resurrection?' is a separate question; it doesn't directly follow from Ephesians 3:21 at all.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
680
113
#31
Nice try Bones.

I'm not a math guy like yerself but I can see all that don't add up tongue.png
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
680
113
#32
if i'm correct in all this, then 'will we conceive and bear children perpetually in the resurrection?' is a separate question; it doesn't directly follow from Ephesians 3:21 at all.
There is no procreation in the resurrection, the body dies and then is transformed into the spiritual body "like unto angels" - I ain't sure where this spiritual procreation entered the discussion.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,436
8,280
113
#33
There is no procreation in the resurrection, the body dies and then is transformed into the spiritual body "like unto angels" - I ain't sure where this spiritual procreation entered the discussion.
why, it's the OP, silly borg-puppy

Will human procreation here on earth always continue? How can God's Kingdom keep increasing if there's going to be a finite number of people entering into it?
when death is no more will new souls continue to be born?

this is a math topic; it's an instance of this question:
is the total number of humans over all time a finite number?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
680
113
#34
Oh it was YOU - I shudder known.

"when death is no more will new souls continue to be born?"

When and what "death is no more" we talking about Bones?

Some scripture might helpeth.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,436
8,280
113
#35
((chases borg-dog trying to retrieve tibia))

@plcarver started it

Oh it was YOU - I shudder known.

"when death is no more will new souls continue to be born?"

When and what "death is no more" we talking about Bones?

Some scripture might helpeth.
He will wipe every tear from their eyes!
There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain,
for the old order of things has passed away!
(Revelation 21:4)

maybe i'm misunderstanding the scope of his question but i think he's understanding Isaiah 9:7 to necessitate an infinitely-increasing total number of souls under God's government. i did give an alternatives, and opened a related can of worms which is strangely untouched..
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
680
113
#36
((chases borg-dog trying to retrieve tibia))

@plcarver started it



He will wipe every tear from their eyes!
There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain,
for the old order of things has passed away!
(Revelation 21:4)

maybe i'm misunderstanding the scope of his question but i think he's understanding Isaiah 9:7 to necessitate an infinitely-increasing total number of souls under God's government. i did give some alternatives, and opened a related can of worms.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
11,458
4,600
113
#37
Will human procreation here on earth always continue?
Yes. According to Scripture there will be saved nations of the earth after the New Heavens and the New Earth are established.
How can God's Kingdom keep increasing if there's going to be a finite number of people entering into it?
After the second coming of Christ, and then after the establishment of the New Heavens and the New Earth, there will be universal and eternal righteousness upon this earth. Today perhaps 1% of humanity is saved. Then 100% of humanity will be saved. At the same time, God has created "worlds" (plural) and they too will be inhabited (though little about this is mentioned in Scripture).
And as an aside, What about pregnant women who are Christians and who are alive when Jesus Christ returns? Will they go on to give birth once they receive their glorified bodies?
Why don't you leave such issues in the hands of Christ. He will ensure that everything works out perfectly.
Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
This prophecy must be accepted in its plain literal sense. Christ will indeed establish His real, literal, physical, tangible, and eternal Kingdom upon this earth and there will not be a single unrighteous person in it. The throne of David will be literally reestablished in redeemed and restored Israel, and David will be prince over Israel under Christ.

EZEKIEL 37
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.


DANIEL 7
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man [CHRIST] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, [God the Father] and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
680
113
#38
((chases borg-dog trying to retrieve tibia))

@plcarver started it



He will wipe every tear from their eyes!
There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain,
for the old order of things has passed away!
(Revelation 21:4)

maybe i'm misunderstanding the scope of his question but i think he's understanding Isaiah 9:7 to necessitate an infinitely-increasing total number of souls under God's government. i did give an alternatives, and opened a related can of worms which is strangely untouched..
Coupla issues here Bones - first Rev 21 - I'm pretty sure that John has Isaiah in mind here:

Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

And Paul also seems to have Isaiah in mind:

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

What is the "death swallowed" up in victory? Is it physical death? In a sense yes but I don't think Paul is saying that.

Prior to the end of the Law (which was passing away in the 1st century AD - Heb 8:13) death held everybody in it's grip in Hades awaiting the resurrection of the just and unjust.

From that time forward the "sting of death" has been defeated, Christians at death ever since have been translated and put on the immortal.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

In the above John sees the "new heaven and earth" - the same heaven and earth Isaiah predicted:

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

But then Isaiah tells us that there is still physical death and sinning:

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

^ There's yer generations for ever and ever.

More could be said on "death" through the Law but it gets unwieldy in one post.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,310
3,875
113
#39
There are instances when the Word refers to a generation of the flesh and others where it refers to the generation of the saints, the souls that is.
All the genealogies of Genesis and the resurrection are good examples.

I am glad the prophets adn Jesus were not asked for verse and chapter since those designations did not exist. Even Christ would say, you have read……...


I am sorry for your excuses and insinuations. If you have not studied the Word to be able to speak on it without those numbers of verses and chapters added by man.........it is time you listent to the Holy Spisrit bear witness to what others share in Christ. Good morning to all from here...
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,310
3,875
113
#40
To those who have never listened to the posts explaining about the law and grace according to Jesus Christ, although you will most likely go along with the votes and not pay attention.

Our Savior did not lie when He said He came to fulfill the law and not destroy it.

He did so in many ways and is yet doing it within all of us. The Word does not say the law was destroyed on the cross rather its power, death, was destroyed, that curse you should already know about.

Because of this we are not under the law, that is, its power. Yet we are to obey God.

Do not say in your heart, "Because I am free of the power of the law, I may disobey Jesus Christ, God." We are to obey all the laws not yet fulfileld, and as long as we are in the flesh they are not yet.

None of us will be perfected until God finishes His work within us, that work He began once we each called upon Jesus Christ. You and I are not doing this work, but we are yielding to God's will working within each of us.

Yes, our Father overlooks the guilt of our sin now just as in Psalm 32, but this is not to say we are to break the laws that remain, very few by the way.

If you do not know all of this, learn it and more. Do you believe killing is now allowed? You do not know Love, and God is Love.

Do you have parents? Are you to disrespect them? I do not think so, even if they are wicked there is a certain amount of respect yet due them, or did you bring yourself into this age?

I speak from certain experience which very few have experienced. Do yo forgive all who have wronged you?

If your attitude is to continue arguing that we are free to disobey, I am afraid your piety is feigned and will not endure the wash. God bless all who hear Jesus Christ and do His Word, amen