Isn't ETERNITY in Hell a little harsh?

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C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#61
Yes it does mean that those in hell will be tormented forever. The fire will not consume them, thus total annihilation is untrue......if that's what you are referring to.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
Let me address Rev. 20:10.

To uderstand the Revelation we must go back to Rev. 14:10; "and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messangers, before the Lamb..."

'Thayer's Lexicon' gives the primary meaning of the verb Basanizo (torment): "to test (metals) by touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with the metal"

Primary meaning of the noun Theion (brimstone); "divine insense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and ward off disease"

'Friberg's Analytical Lexicon confirms that Theion was "anciently regarded as divine insense to purify and prevent contagion."

If we relate this word to God (Theios) the word being derived from Him, we have an image of divine fire, a fire that tests for the purity of substance - basanizo - a process of purging inferior element to reveal purity, quality, refinement. To be tormented with fire and brimstone in a biblical sense, by the very definition of the word; is to be tried and purified by Divine fire.

Also 'ever and ever' is not a never ending period of time, does not mean infinity, 'ever' translated from aion, now we have a word that simply means 'age', that is what the Koine Greek means, and that is consistent with Biblical etymological interpretation, to double it 'age of ages' does not mean infinity years; it means a period of time defined by God, and not defined by humans.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#62
No idea about those people as I am not of thier faith.
Well, it is a standard doctrine in Jehovah's Witnesses.. one of my favorite things to do is ask a Jehovah's witness if they are one of the 144,000. I'll ask you the same, do you think you are one of the 144k? If not, why not.
 
L

Laiahna

Guest
#63
I hope I am. It is up to God.
 
L

Laiahna

Guest
#64
So, does that mean there is no more then 144000 Jehovah's Witnesses?
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#65
Nah, just 144,000 who will go to heaven. The thing is, they dont know who will or won't be one of them.
 
H

Harley_Angel

Guest
#66
Honestly, I'm still new to studying the Word, and to being a true Christian, but here is what I believe. I believe God is Love, and that hell is the absence of Love, therefore, the absence of God. I believe that every time we sin, we spend a small amount of time in Hell, here on earth, during our life. When we sin, we are turning away from God and Love, and it puts us in hell. That feeling you get when you lie, or steal, or cheat, and all the consequences after it are hell.

I don't believe hell is a place, necessarily, so much as a state of mind. I think that the burning fires, the demons ripping at your flesh, etc, are all imagery used to describe the lonliness and suffering we feel when we remove ourselves from God's love through sin. I think as long as wel try, because we'll never be perfect, as long as we try to analyze ourselves, figure out what our faults are, and fix them, that we'll be forgive of everything, and God will lead us to heaven. However, there are those who don't want to, they simply don't want to be with God, and He respects that, and lets them wallow in the world in they make for themselves. When they die, they will continue in that state of mind, of being without Love, being without Light, just like they wanted.

One of the reasons I stopped being a Christian for so long was because the church I went to made me feel like I would never be good enough, no matter what, to get into Heaven or to earn God's love. They made me feel like it was pointless to even try because even if I fixed one sin, there would be a multitude of others that I may not even recognize as being sinful in nature. I felt like if I didn't give every single homeless person I saw all the money I had, I would go to hell, if I told my friend her butt didn't look big in those jeans, I would go to hell, if I missed one single sunday at Church, I would go to hell, if I enjoyed anything in my life, it would mean I loved my worldly life more than the life God had planned for me and I would go to hell.

Then I found a church where they showed me, we don't have to earn God's love, he gives it to us freely. We don't have to be perfect to earn Heaven, it's our inheritance for being children of God. All we have to do is love him, and loving him means following his commandments, and just like with our own parents, we break the rules sometimes. It doesn't mean they will disown us, or cast us out, or stop loving us, we are punished, we stop acting out, and we are rewarded. God isn't going to take his Love away from you, unless you ask him to, and even then, he doesn't stop loving you, he simply lets you walk out that door, and follow your own path.

I turned my back on God once, I tried to stop beliving in Him, I tried homosexuality, drugs, sex before marriage, lying, denying Him...and it was the worse time in my life. I've never been so close to giving up as I did in that time. I never felt so lonely, or depressed, or hurt. I stopped hanging out with my friends, I stopped feeling good about myself, I stopped caring about everything...I was in hell, not because God put me there for sinning, but because I asked to be there, I pulled the blinds on God's light. And the ironic part is, I thought God had turned His back on me. Then one day, I stepped into a church, and I nearly cried. I could see God's light still shining behind the curtains I had pulled in my heart. I knew he hadn't stopped loving me that entire time, that He hadn't forsaken me, and that all I had to do to be in heaven again, was open those curtains and let Him love me.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, or if it even hits the point on the nose, but, that's what I believe, and that's what I felt.
 
L

Laiahna

Guest
#67
Geeze, Harley. That was a lot of burden with all those sins. Thank God you found the trueth of love. The sermon I listened to toady on this site is very good in the bible teaching section. Jesus tells in John 15 about vine and branches that make a lot of xence to me. Maybe you want to listen to that? Hope it helps you as it has me today. Stay in Gods love. :)
 
H

Harley_Angel

Guest
#68
I would love to listen to that. Where can I find it?
 

BLU

Banned
Jul 26, 2009
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#70
The problem is not that there are only 140,000 entering heaven (144,000 actually I believe)...but that they are all Jehovah's Witnesses! (according to them).
They misinterpret that verse. The 144000 are the number of ppl that have been saved during the church age. the # 12 = fullness 12x 12000 =1444000, so it is the fullness of all believers that have been saved before the church was taken over by Satan, 2Thess 2:2-11.
The actual number of those in the world will be about 2 hundred million or 3% of the worlds population, but it is only a speculative account. This is supposedly all the ppl that go up in the rapture and those who's souls are already in heaven commng back during judgment-day to win the battle of Armageddon against those who have been left behind.
(Rev 9:16) And the number of the army of the horsemen [were] two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
 
L

Laiahna

Guest
#71
They misinterpret that verse. The 144000 are the number of ppl that have been saved during the church age. the # 12 = fullness 12x 12000 =1444000, so it is the fullness of all believers that have been saved before the church was taken over by Satan, 2Thess 2:2-11.
The actual number of those in the world will be about 2 hundred million or 3% of the worlds population, but it is only a speculative account. This is supposedly all the ppl that go up in the rapture and those who's souls are already in heaven commng back during judgment-day to win the battle of Armageddon against those who have been left behind.
(Rev 9:16) And the number of the army of the horsemen [were] two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
No fair! He was supposed to look it up. lol
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#72
Only 140.000 will enter heaven? There are living 6 billion people on that earth right now. If you calculate the populations of only the last 20 centuries the only one out of 1071420 will go to heaven. One out of a million? Can't believe that. And that only calculated people who were born after 1 AD.
Where did you get that 140.000?
hey sir you need to read a little further in the scriptures you basing you equation on : see if you can figure the percentage

Re 7:9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;Re 7:10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.Re 7:11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,Re 7:12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.Re 7:13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?Re 7:14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
your numbers don't add up part of your equation is faulty, try to refigure, if you can figure how much is the number of people that can't be numbered by man
 
S

SwordOfFire

Guest
#74
Honestly, I'm still new to studying the Word, and to being a true Christian, but here is what I believe. I believe God is Love, and that hell is the absence of Love, therefore, the absence of God. I believe that every time we sin, we spend a small amount of time in Hell, here on earth, during our life. When we sin, we are turning away from God and Love, and it puts us in hell. That feeling you get when you lie, or steal, or cheat, and all the consequences after it are hell.
Sounds nice, but no. There is no scriptural basis for what you are saying, at all. I'm not trying to bring the hammer down on you, or anything, but someone needs to speak up and address this. As a new Christian, you need, at the very onset of your Christianity, to make a point to keep your doctrine biblical and sound.

The bad you feel when you sin, is your conscience, and the Holy Spirit convicting you of sin. It isn't hell; it's meant to drive you to repentance so that you are spared from hell.

Also, Psalm 139:8 says that God is present even in hell. That is exactly what makes hell, hell. It is God's eternal wrath and justice against wickedness.
 
H

Harley_Angel

Guest
#76
Thank you Sword. I'm still learning the Bible, and I'm not quite a scripture expert, but this view of mine is one my priest and I discussed while we were having a conversation on how medieval literature and paintings distorted our perceptions of hell...it was an interesting conversation. But, if you say it's not accurate, maybe I'll bring it up with my new priest (I moved) this sunday to learn more! But, also, in that passage, my Bible, which is NIV says, "If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there." The footnote for the word depth comes from Sheol, and when I looked for a definition of that, "Sheol - a Hebrew term simply describing “the grave” or “death” – Does not refer to “hell” specifically". I don't think they are necesssarily talking about hell, but maybe he's saying something along the lines when he's doing good (or making his way up to the heavens) God is there watching, even if he's doing something bad (making his bed in Sheol) God is watching and present, then, too.

Just something to ponder.
 
B

broken

Guest
#77
that is a question better asked of God than man.
 
H

Harley_Angel

Guest
#78
True *pulls out her cellphone* Anyone got His cellphone number? :)
 
B

broken

Guest
#79
Yeah, its "Lord, I you there I got a question for you.... <insert question here.>

You don't need his number, you got a full time open connection.
 
S

SwordOfFire

Guest
#80
Thank you Sword. I'm still learning the Bible, and I'm not quite a scripture expert, but this view of mine is one my priest and I discussed while we were having a conversation on how medieval literature and paintings distorted our perceptions of hell...it was an interesting conversation. But, if you say it's not accurate, maybe I'll bring it up with my new priest (I moved) this sunday to learn more! But, also, in that passage, my Bible, which is NIV says, "If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there." The footnote for the word depth comes from Sheol, and when I looked for a definition of that, "Sheol - a Hebrew term simply describing “the grave” or “death” – Does not refer to “hell” specifically". I don't think they are necesssarily talking about hell, but maybe he's saying something along the lines when he's doing good (or making his way up to the heavens) God is there watching, even if he's doing something bad (making his bed in Sheol) God is watching and present, then, too.

Just something to ponder.
You are right about the hebrew translation of Sheol. But in the context of the verse, it is saying that God is present in all places, without exception. In Revelation it says that those who receive the mark are tormented in the presence of the Lamb. You mention that you have a priest, so does that mean that you are Catholic, or Orthodox? I don't know much about Catholic theology. I do know that Orthodox theology teaches that both sinners and saints will be plunged into the same sea of God's love. For saints, who have learned to assimilate that love, it will be bliss. For sinners who have not, it will be a fire of torment.

As Evangelicals, we tend to think of things in a more literal, and less mystical way. But I think that a proper understanding of the theology is that Hell is God's eternal wrath and justice, not his absence.
 
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