Israel or Palestine?

loveme1 · Apr 4, 2013

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Psalm 89

Maschil of Ethan the Ezrahite.} I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.2For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.3I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,4Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.5And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.6For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?7God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.8O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?9Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.10Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.11The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.12The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.13Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.14Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.15Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.16In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.17For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.18For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.19Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.20I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:21With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.22The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.23And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.24But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.25I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.26He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.27Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.28My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.29His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.30If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;31If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;32Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.33Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.34My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.35Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.36His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.37It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.38But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.39Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.40Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.41All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.42Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.43Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.44Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.45The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.46How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?47Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?48What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.49Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?50Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;51Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O LORD; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.52Blessed be the LORD for evermore. Amen, and Amen.

RachelBibleStudent · Apr 4, 2013

Abiding said:

i have tried to tell you this before...the vast majority of anti zionist jews are -not- 'torah believing jews'...in fact the anti zionist jews tend to be from the most talmudic sect judaism has...

maybe it will help if i list the major branches of judaism one by one...i will put the ones most relevant to the topic in bold...

renewal judaism
adherence to torah: minimal
adherence to talmud: minimal with strong mystical influences
zionism: varies mainly by politics

reconstructionist judaism
adherence to torah: minimal
adherence to talmud: minimal
zionism: zionist

reform judaism
adherence to torah: minimal
adherence to talmud: moderate
zionism: varies mainly by politics

conservative judaism
adherence to torah: moderate
aherence to talmud: moderate to strong
zionism: zionist

orthodox judaism
adherence to torah: moderate
adherence to talmud: strong
zionism: varies

haredi (ultra orthodox) judaism
adherence to torah: moderate
adherence to talmud: extreme
zionism: mildly to strongly antizionist

hasidic judaism
adherence to torah: minimal to moderate
adherence to talmud: moderate to high with strong mystical influences
zionism: generally apathetic

karaite judaism
adherence to torah: high
adherence to talmud: none
zionism: apathetic to moderately zionist

messianic judaism
adherence to torah: usually high
adherence to talmud: none to moderate
zionism: varies mainly by eschatology

zone · Apr 4, 2013

1still_waters said:

Isaiah 10
5 “Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger And the staff in whose hand is My indignation.6 I will send him against an ungodly nation, And against the people of My wrath
I will give him charge, To seize the spoil, to take the prey,
And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.7 yet he does not mean so, Nor does his heart think so;
But it is in his heart to destroy, And cut off not a few nations.

Isaiah 42
23 Who among you will give ear to this? Who will listen and hear for the time to come?24 Who gave Jacob for plunder, and Israel to the robbers? Was it not the Lord,
He against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in His ways,
Nor were they obedient to His law.25 Therefore He has poured on him the fury of His anger And the strength of battle; It has set him on fire all around,
Yet he did not know; And it burned him, Yet he did not take it to heart.

Daniel 1
1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. 2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the articles of the house of God, which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the articles into the treasure house of his god.

Matthew 23

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

kinda scary ppl think God is up there wringing his hands saying oh i guess i`ll let Titus go ahead.
it really has nothing to do with Me...but i guess i will allow it.

oh well....we are making progress Stilly.

1still_waters · Apr 4, 2013

zone said:

uh huh......

zone · Apr 4, 2013

RachelBibleStudent said:

i have tried to tell you this before...the vast majority of anti zionist jews are -not- 'torah believing jews'...in fact the anti zionist jews tend to be from the most talmudic sect judaism has...

maybe it will help if i list the major branches of judaism one by one...i will put the ones most relevant to the topic in bold...

renewal judaism
adherence to torah: minimal
adherence to talmud: minimal with strong mystical influences
zionism: varies mainly by politics

reconstructionist judaism
adherence to torah: minimal
adherence to talmud: minimal
zionism: zionist

reform judaism
adherence to torah: minimal
adherence to talmud: moderate
zionism: varies mainly by politics

conservative judaism
adherence to torah: moderate
aherence to talmud: moderate to strong
zionism: zionist

orthodox judaism
adherence to torah: moderate
adherence to talmud: strong
zionism: varies

haredi (ultra orthodox) judaism
adherence to torah: moderate
adherence to talmud: extreme
zionism: mildly to strongly antizionist

hasidic judaism
adherence to torah: minimal to moderate
adherence to talmud: moderate to high with strong mystical influences
zionism: generally apathetic

karaite judaism
adherence to torah: high
adherence to talmud: none
zionism: apathetic to moderately zionist

messianic judaism
adherence to torah: usually high
adherence to talmud: none to moderate
zionism: varies mainly by eschatology

so are any of them in Covenant with God.
no not one.

Earlmayknowornot · Apr 4, 2013

My Italian Zone, you are Italian rite. I think thats the flag you fly. Love you

loveme1 · Apr 4, 2013

Earlmayknowornot said:

Irish flag...

The top of the morning to ya though.

zone · Apr 4, 2013

1still_waters said:

loveme1 · Apr 4, 2013

Bravo Zone

Abiding · Apr 4, 2013

zone do i have to tell you again...its not propaganda
its just public relations.

zone · Apr 4, 2013

Earlmayknowornot said:

love you too earl
its ireland today.
gonna switch tomorrow.
mebee

zone · Apr 4, 2013

Abiding said:

oh i know

zone · Apr 4, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Rom 9.

1. Paul is speaking present tense.
2. Paul is speaking about salvation
3. Speaking of Spiritual Isreal
4. Speaks of saving them from there sin, not turning them from their sin (us)

You ignore romans 11:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[SUP][h][/SUP]

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1. Speaking future tense
2. Speaking if national isreal not spiritual isreal
3. Speaks of turning the ungodliness from Jacob, not saving them eternally from their sin.

Forgive me if I do not want to be ignorant of the mystery.

sorry
its not a mystery.
you just dont know what he meant.

anyways...we have something happening here today.
let`s keep it going if possible.

this isnt about Romans 9 AGAIN.

its about the Talmudic version of the Kingdom.
Dispensationalism slipped in to make it happen....for (not) Israel.

RachelBibleStudent · Apr 4, 2013

1still_waters said:

Isaiah 10
5 “Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger And the staff in whose hand is My indignation.6 I will send him against an ungodly nation, And against the people of My wrath
I will give him charge, To seize the spoil, to take the prey,
And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.7 yet he does not mean so, Nor does his heart think so;
But it is in his heart to destroy, And cut off not a few nations.

Isaiah 42
23 Who among you will give ear to this? Who will listen and hear for the time to come?24 Who gave Jacob for plunder, and Israel to the robbers? Was it not the Lord,
He against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in His ways,
Nor were they obedient to His law.25 Therefore He has poured on him the fury of His anger And the strength of battle; It has set him on fire all around,
Yet he did not know; And it burned him, Yet he did not take it to heart.

Daniel 1
1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. 2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the articles of the house of God, which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the articles into the treasure house of his god.

Matthew 23

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

the passages from isaiah are about the fall of the northern kingdom...722 BC...
the passage from daniel is about the overthrow of king jehoiakim a decade or two before the fall of jerusalem...around 600 BC...
the passage from matthew is about AD 70 but i don't see jesus saying God himself will -send- the calamity...

i am open to being proven wrong on this...but i want something more convincing...like jesus or a new testament writer saying 'God will destroy jerusalem'

i will post the scripture that leads me to say 'God allowed it' in a minute...

crossnote · Apr 4, 2013

zone said:

well I've been around all the "Mills". Rom 11 is what clinched it for me...all of it, not just snippets.

RachelBibleStudent · Apr 4, 2013

zone said:

allowed it....seriously.
what kind of exegesis is this rachel.

HE DECREED IT.

why dont we believe The Bible.

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Isaiah 10:22
For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. Destruction is decreed, overflowing with righteousness.

Matthew 24:2
"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

Mark 13:2
"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

Luke 19:44
They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."

the passage from daniel cannot be about AD 70 since the seventy weeks were presumably over by then...unless you make a gap

the passage from isaiah is about the fall of israel in 722 BC or the fall of judah in 586 BC or both...
the passages from matthew and mark and luke show jesus warning of what will happen in AD 70...but they do not actually say it was a direct act of God...

like i said...i am open to being proven wrong about this...but i need something more convincing...at the very least an 'i will' type of statement about these events in the new testament...

zone · Apr 4, 2013

Abiding said:

[video=youtube;EfdYe2Bg6no]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfdYe2Bg6no[/video]

Disclosing Jewish Involvement African Slave Trade Dr Tony Martin

watch for the gnashing of teeth over the word revisionism

a very informative video by a prof who knows his stuff.
he does touch on the persecution he dealt with as a result.
reasonable, rational and loving man.

worth watching in full.

just to get an idea of how deep and wide the deception has been.

zone · Apr 4, 2013

Abiding said:

I wonder if we made tiny points. Like start tidbit threads on issues noone would argue about.
Like the Israelites who crossbred with Edomites and such. In other words first get down to what
a ethnic jew even is. Spose youd have to start back at least to the Babylonian captivity. Get a grip
on what it means "your tradition that makes the word of God of none effect" "your fathers the devil"

Im just blabbing....but there has been so much misinformation taught in the churches ive been in
and they were the best. But the glib commentaries really taught me nothing. It wasnt so much that
i was lied to as it was that i was just given a 4 ounce bottle of similac that just curdled.

Oh while im babbling i was reading records last nite from the Carnagie library on the slave
trade. As well as the rum and ivory....etc and the names and such. Im sure you knew. Its just
so big. And am following the names a little more. And their associations with the founding Fathers
this is the only verse that keeps me from just saying noway each time i study more.

1 john 5:19We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

amen brother.
we are making progress.
all i want is a level playing field.

it ought to be self-evident but it is not.
so we do what we have to.

i hate being lied to.

1still_waters · Apr 4, 2013

RachelBibleStudent said:

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

He says that generation will fill up wrath.
He said those stones on that temple would be cast down.

Who does all those things according to three scriptures i showed?

God does.

Abiding · Apr 4, 2013

RachelBibleStudent said:

ty rachel. my point wasnt about all those who are against zionism
The groups im thinking about believe the torah enough to know they
cannot have the land back until
God gives it to them without monkey
business and lies and wars and the rest. And are also aware what is required for the residents that would
be there at the time.

By the way last we talked you gave me a percentage of Khazars and Ashkenazis in Israel.
And a run down on percentages of each group. I wondered about your source because
from the sources i get....which is a bunch randomly your very low % was the total
opposite of what i get. And it seems that the majority if Ashkenazis are khazars and some estimates
of Israelis are 80 to 90% of the population. Wonder if public relations are involved here.
Ive just made it a side hobby to find credible info on this subject.

Israel or Palestine?

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