Israel

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ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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#81
I know what you mean. The invisible, universal church of all redeemed is the predominant view.. with the local visible church within that. What I have learned though-- is that all redeemed should be called part of the Family of God.. because a church is something that is visible and assembles.

Most outer wheel-- Kingdom of God
Wheel within that-- Family of God
Wheel within that-- The institution of New Testament churches

The universal, invisible church looks like an 'unassembled assembly' whereas.. the Family of God.. that's related by being redeemed but the members aren't all assembled together.
The smaller inner wheel is the remnant (visible church that assembles together) who has been revealed, by the Holy Spirit, the truths of Christ's doctrine. The outer larger wheel are all of the rest of God's elect that are believing and teaching false doctrines (the untold number that falsely call themselves the true church that Jesus set up.) The fact that they are preaching a false doctrine does not cause them to lose their eternal inheritance.

I believe this also harmonizes with the two gates in Matt 7:13-14.
 

ForestGreenCook

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#82
I assume your no is to my 2nd point and not my first?

In your view, can gentile believers be said to be among those "scattered people"? Do they have a particular area of land to be scattered from?
Yes, Rev 5:9 says they are from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#83
Yes, Rev 5:9 says they are from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.
If gentile believers are found in every nation, how can they ever be considered as scattered?

Where did they scatter from?

I am aware that Jews can be scattered, but that is because Israel is the land that God promised them. They were scattered in the OT, and in Acts 8, they were scattered from Jerusalem after the persecution from Saul

8 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Let scripture explained to all of us what "scattered" means
 

Keras

Active member
Aug 9, 2020
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#84
I assume your no is to my 2nd point and not my first?

In your view, can gentile believers be said to be among those "scattered people"? Do they have a particular area of land to be scattered from?
You assume correctly.

Not one of us knows our ancestry. The gene pool is so mixed now, we cannot say we 'belong' anywhere.
For example, one of my GG Grandfathers came from Elgin, Scotland, the one with the name I have, but where all the others plus their wives originated I have no idea. So how could I go to Elgin and claim anything?
But, let me assure you: God does have a Plan. It is for His faithful, righteous people to go to and live in His holy Land.

Whose Land is it?
In ancient times, God appeared to Abraham and made a promise to him that his descendants would possess the holy Land, all that area from the Euphrates to the Nile. But he had two sons and the descendants of Ishmael dispute possession with the descendants of Isaac and Jacob. Much blood has been shed over this problem and the current situation, as well as the prophetic scriptures make it certain that another attack is in the offing. Psalms 83:1-8, Micah 4:11

Both Psalms 83 and Micah 4 as well as many other prophecies say how the commencement of this war will trigger the Lord’s devastating judgement/punishment of the attackers and will affect the whole world, causing a ‘reset of civilization’. A One World Government will be formed, but every faithful Christian, be they of Israel or grafted in, Romans 9:6-8, will gather and settle in all of the holy Land, before the Return of the Messiah. Their proof of ownership is a document kept hidden until now, but soon to be revealed:

Jeremiah 32:6-14 The Word of the Lord came to me: Your relative will ask you to buy his land, as you have right of possession, as next of kin. I bought the Land for 17 shekels of silver and gave the two copies of the deed of purchase to Baruch, who sealed them in a clay jar, so that they would be preserved for a very long time.

Jeremiah 32:37-44 The Lord says: As I brought upon My people exile and disasters, so shall I bring them all the prosperity which I promise to them. In this Land, now a desolation and given over to foreigners, My people will once again buy and sell houses, fields and vineyards. I shall gather Israel and Judah from all the places where they have been banished, bring them back to their heritage and let them dwell here undisturbed. They will be My people and I will be their God. I will make an everlasting covenant with them and will put a fear of Me into their hearts, so they will not again turn away from Me. It will be a joy to Me to do them good and assuredly I will plant them here.

Jeremiah 33:6-26 The Lord says: Now I shall bring healing and care for Israel and Judah, they will see lasting peace and security. I shall cleanse them of all the sins they committed in rebellion against Me. This place will win Me renown from all the nations, when they see the prosperity that I give it. This place, devastated by My judgement will once again hear shouts of joy and praises will be sung in the House of the Lord.

The days are coming when I shall bestow on Israel and Judah the blessings I have promised to them. In those days and at that time, I will give them a righteous leader, from David’s line. As I cannot change day and night, so the promises I made to the Patriarchs, to David and to My priests will be fulfilled.

Have you seen how people say: The two families that the Lord chose – He rejected? Now, others despise My people and they are no longer a single nation. As I have established the fixed laws of the heavens, so I choose the descendants of Jacob, and David My servant, and his line will rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In My compassion I will restore their fortunes.
Ref: Revised English Bible, abridged and paraphrased.

this place, devastated by My judgement’, All of the holy Land, cleared and cleansed by the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. Psalms 83, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:1-18, +

‘a righteous leader’ – Initially, this is not Jesus as Jer. 30:21 and Hosea 1:11…The Lord’s holy people; will choose for themselves a leader.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#85
You assume correctly.

Not one of us knows our ancestry. The gene pool is so mixed now, we cannot say we 'belong' anywhere.
.
But when 1 Peter was written, it was before 100 AD, so your point here makes no sense.
 

Keras

Active member
Aug 9, 2020
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#86
But when 1 Peter was written, it was before 100 AD, so your point here makes no sense.
Abraham was born about 1900 BC, so for anyone today to say they are actual descendant children of Abraham, it is only an unprovable assertion and just a part of their tradition.

But the New Testament tells us who the real children of Abraham are; Galatians 3:26-29, +
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#87
Abraham was born about 1900 BC, so for anyone today to say they are actual descendant children of Abraham, it is only an unprovable assertion and just a part of their tradition.

But the New Testament tells us who the real children of Abraham are; Galatians 3:26-29, +
Why do you keep mentioning "today" when 1 Peter was written before 100AD?

Didn't I already quote Acts 8:1 to you about who are the scattered people?

8 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts 2:5 onwards further elaborate on who are the scattered people.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
 

Keras

Active member
Aug 9, 2020
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#88
God’s Israel, the Christian Church:
In the Old Testament era, Israel was that nation of men that descended from Abraham through his sons, Isaac and Jacob (Gen 17:19; 21:9-12). Jacob was renamed "Israel" (Gen 32:28), and from Jacob came twelve sons who became patriarchs of twelve tribes, or families, of Abraham's descendants. These families famously became known as the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Though the most visible component of Israel's identity was familial and marked in the flesh with the mark of circumcision (Gen 17:10-11), from the earliest times certain foreigners sojourned among the Hebrew tribes and began following the Hebrew religion and way of life. These gentile migrants lacked the ancestral link to Abraham that the natural-born descendants possessed, but they nevertheless were permitted to be circumcised (Gen 17:11-13) and assimilated fully into the native-born people of God by way of conversion:

"If a man from another country is living with you, and has a desire to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all the males of his family undergo circumcision, and then let him come near and keep it; for he will then be as one of your people; but no one without circumcision may keep it. The law is the same for him who is an Israelite by birth and for the man from a strange country who is living with you." (Ex 12:48-49)

Gentiles who converted to the Hebrew religion in this way and sojourned among the tribes of Israel were grafted into the people of God and given full status as true Israelites. Many such naturalized citizens existed among the members of Israel, though the natural-born sons of Abraham always comprised a majority of the citizenry.

While racial decent from Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob, "Israel") was central to identifying the members of the Israel in Old Testament times, God made it clear that all Israelites who disobeyed His covenant would be "cut off" from among the true people of God:
"He who is born in your house...must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant." (Gen 17:13-14)

Soon it became clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

The severe sedition and schism that took place in Christ's generation between the faithful sons and the disobedient brothers was not without warning. As St. Peter testified to his contemporary Jewish brethren:
"For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever he shall speak to you. And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days." (Acts 3:22-24)

THIS is exactly what happened in the first century.

As Moses and Peter had forewarned, the wicked sons of Israel of that generation were dramatically cut off at the destruction of Jerusalem, at AD 66-70. The disobedient sons received many dire warnings from Jesus the Messiah:
"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, you house shall be left to you, desolate" (Matt 23:29,33-38)

Again the Messiah predicted the imminent destruction of the rebellious sons:
When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:41-44)

As a testimony to God's providential care for his faithful remnant, the obedient sons of Abraham were miraculously spared and protected while the wicked sons were judged and destroyed from among the people. Addressing his beloved apostles and followers, Jesus said:
"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles" (Luke 21:20-22).

Once the faithful nation of God's elect were miraculously protected, the doom predicted for wicked brothers would commence. As Jesus forewarned:
"When therefore the Lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those vine-growers? They said unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will rent out his vineyard unto other vine-growers, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the chief corner stone: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?' Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Mt 21:40-45)

And so true Israel---the sons of Abraham who followed the Messiah, as manifested by Providence and by history---was again preserved during a time of national apostasy and tribulation. As was the case in former times with Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, countless apostates were cut off from among the people. But God's elect Israel, the faithful remnant, triumphed and continued on, spreading the good news of the Kingdom of God to the entire world, in and through the Jewish Church.

Israel survived in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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#89
If gentile believers are found in every nation, how can they ever be considered as scattered?

Where did they scatter from?

I am aware that Jews can be scattered, but that is because Israel is the land that God promised them. They were scattered in the OT, and in Acts 8, they were scattered from Jerusalem after the persecution from Saul

8 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Let scripture explained to all of us what "scattered" means
And what does the Jews being scattered have to do with the Gentiles?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#90
And what does the Jews being scattered have to do with the Gentiles?
I was trying to show that Peter was writing to Israelite Jews in 1 Peter, and not the gentile believers.

Its in line with what he agreed at the Jerusalem Council as stated in Galatians 2:9
 

ForestGreenCook

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#91
And you are 100% certain Peter is writing to the Body of Christ?

Is there a chance he could be writing to Israel instead?
Israel, is the name given to Jacob, Gen 33:28. Jacob and Israel are the same, which is the body of Christ.
 
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#92
Israel, is the name given to Jacob, Gen 33:28. Jacob and Israel are the same, which is the body of Christ.
The Body of Christ is a mystery revealed to the Apostle Paul (Ephesians 3:9), so it cannot be found in the OT.
 

ForestGreenCook

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#93
I was trying to show that Peter was writing to Israelite Jews in 1 Peter, and not the gentile believers.

Its in line with what he agreed at the Jerusalem Council as stated in Galatians 2:9
Israel is the name that God gave Jacob ln Gen 33:28. All regenerated believers make up those that are the bride of Christ, which is Jacob/Israel. This is not the nation of Israel, but Jacob/Israel. All Israel is not of Israel
 

ForestGreenCook

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#94
The Body of Christ is a mystery revealed to the Apostle Paul (Ephesians 3:9), so it cannot be found in the OT.
All of the elect of God make up the body of Christ. Ezek 10 talks of a wheel within a wheel. The outer, bigger, wheel represents all of God's elect. which is the invisible church. The inner, smaller, wheel, the visible church, known as the remnant, is those elect that have been revealed, by the Holy Spirit, the truths of the doctrine of Jesus. Ezek goes in chapter 11 mentioning "the house of Israel", which is the house of Jacob/Israel, and in verse 19 God says that he will give them one heart, and will put a new spirit within them, and he will take the stone heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh.

This also harmonizes with the two gates in Matt 7:13-14.
 
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#95
All of the elect of God make up the body of Christ. Ezek 10 talks of a wheel within a wheel. The outer, bigger, wheel represents all of God's elect. which is the invisible church. The inner, smaller, wheel, the visible church, known as the remnant, is those elect that have been revealed, by the Holy Spirit, the truths of the doctrine of Jesus. Ezek goes in chapter 11 mentioning "the house of Israel", which is the house of Jacob/Israel, and in verse 19 God says that he will give them one heart, and will put a new spirit within them, and he will take the stone heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh.

This also harmonizes with the two gates in Matt 7:13-14.
In the first place, all those passages were talking about the nation Israel.
 

ForestGreenCook

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#96
Abraham was born about 1900 BC, so for anyone today to say they are actual descendant children of Abraham, it is only an unprovable assertion and just a part of their tradition.

But the New Testament tells us who the real children of Abraham are; Galatians 3:26-29, +
The scriptures do say that the descendents of Jacob/Israel (God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel Gen 33:28) make up God's elect, Rom 9:11, Isaiah 10:20-22.
 

ForestGreenCook

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#97
In the first place, all those passages were talking about the nation Israel.
In Gen 33:28, God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel. There is the nation of Israel, and there is Jacob/Israel. which is all of the elect, Rev 5:9.
 
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#98
In Gen 33:28, God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel. There is the nation of Israel, and there is Jacob/Israel. which is all of the elect, Rev 5:9.
So in the OT, Israel refers to the nation.

As I have said, the Body of Christ was a mystery that was revealed to the apostle Paul, which came in after the cross, and after the nation Israel rejected the Messiah for the final time in Acts 7.

And yes, the remnant of Israel that believed in Christ was included in the Body of Christ, together with the gentiles who believed in 1 Cor 15:1-4.
 

ForestGreenCook

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#99
So in the OT, Israel refers to the nation.

As I have said, the Body of Christ was a mystery that was revealed to the apostle Paul, which came in after the cross, and after the nation Israel rejected the Messiah for the final time in Acts 7.

And yes, the remnant of Israel that believed in Christ was included in the Body of Christ, together with the gentiles who believed in 1 Cor 15:1-4.
So in the OT, Israel refers to the nation.

As I have said, the Body of Christ was a mystery that was revealed to the apostle Paul, which came in after the cross, and after the nation Israel rejected the Messiah for the final time in Acts 7.

And yes, the remnant of Israel that believed in Christ was included in the Body of Christ, together with the gentiles who believed in 1 Cor 15:1-4.
Jacob's name was changed to be called Israel. You are interpreting all of the scriptures that mention "Israel" to mean the nation of Israel. With that interpretation, the scriptures will tend to teach that you can be saved eternally, by your good works. It is no wonder that you are confused, and disregard the grace of God in regeneration, thinking that you have something to do with your eternal salvation.
 
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Jacob's name was changed to be called Israel. You are interpreting all of the scriptures that mention "Israel" to mean the nation of Israel. With that interpretation, the scriptures will tend to teach that you can be saved eternally, by your good works. It is no wonder that you are confused, and disregard the grace of God in regeneration, thinking that you have something to do with your eternal salvation.
No, because the gospel that saves now is not based on works (Romans 4:5)

But Israel in the OT did not have Christ dying on the cross for their sins. They showed their faith by obeying what God commanded them to obey during the OT time period.