It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[eternally-gratefull]

The Lord forgive your rage.

What rage, I have no rage. See what I mean, As usual, your church thinks everyone who does not believe your teachings are angry at you. That is just not so. Do not puff yourself up that much my friend.

I have a feeling brother that you are far from where God wants you to be. You accuse brethren constantly, and seem to be on the verge of true rage at every turn. We have a God who died on a cross for us. Not because it was simply some divine plan, but because He made us to be His beloved bride.

Then why will you not allow him to be your husband, And do the work for you. And stop trying to do the work for yourself. It is the grooms job to do all the preperations, and all the work to bring his wife to himself.

And again, Stop puffing yourself up I am not angry. Nor am I in any rage. I am just stating what I see. If you do not like that. I can not help it.

By your last two post to me, It seems your the one who is angry and in a rage.

And your telling me if God stood in front of you right now as he was you would not fall on your face in fear?? You worry me my friend.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

regenerated = brought back from being fallen away

No. Regenerated means to be made alive. Or to be brought back from the dead.

You are dead because of sin. You are regenerated by Gods mercy (not by yours good deeds)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As a Catholic, I do believe that the Catholic church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. However, I agree with Canon law, viewed as infallible, there is salvation outside of the Church, but not outside of Christ.

so how many gospels are there? I thought paul made it clear there was only one. And anyone who taught a different gospel was damned. did paul lie?

 

[Atwood]

Scripture doesn't teach Sola Scriptura. Scripture teaches the TRADITIONS by written word (scripture) and by word of mouth (sacred tradition). Scripture teaches that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Those are both from St. Paul and from Scripture.

Now you say some things, but don't prove them. Let's see your proof that the Lord Jesus did not specifically deny human religious traditions. And prove that the traditions Paul refers to are anything other than His prophetic word.

Yes, the Church hold up the truth. , στῦλος καὶ ἑδραίωμα τῆς ἀληθείας. The article "the" is not in the text. The Church is holds up and is a mainstay of truth. But ordinary church members are not prophets and do not utter the word of God. Some think this refers to the local church, BTW. This statement says nothing about human traditions. It would be impossible to hold to the human traditions of "church fathers" since they contradict each other. And it must be noted that no such document written after the NT has ever been successfully added to the Bible after the NT was finished.

My POV:
The Bible is the only document which is readily available to the common man, which is the Word of God.

Now to disprove that I challenge you to bring forth an prove that any other document (readily available to the common man) is God's Word.

If you cannot, kindly retract.

 

[Atwood]

yes, but the Church never was divided. It excised the false teachings throughout history. Paul warned of wolves from within being much more subtle and dangerous than false teachings from without. The Body of Christ with the Holy Spirit has maintained the True Gospel and man has never been able to impose his innovative ideas upon His Gospel.[/B][/COLOR]

The Roman Church has not even existed 1500 years as yet. They split in the 11th century. They have ONLY existed for 100O years. It is a good example of the errors that creep in when man is in control, rather than the Holy Spirit working through the Body, not individual men as a Pope. Your tirade goes moot when you don't understand history.

that may be true, but Christ's Church, the True Church was in existence at the time.

As usual Cassian just says things with no proof.

Indeed the Body of Christ, the one true Church maintains the gospel, which is Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved;
not the heretical "you shall get a shot at being saved."

Trust the Crucified for your salvation. Trust Him and His atoning death to pay for your sins and get you to Heaven -- not just a shot at it.

 

[prove-all]

i like what you preach

i hope you read some of my posts

because i feel i did not write them

peace in The name of the Father an Son

 

[kennethcadwell]

You are the roman church (blind)

The roman church was the church Constantine started. You are part of the eastern roman church (after the split)

wow. just wow.

If you are speaking of the Roman Catholic church then you are wrong. Constantine did not start it, it already existed before Constantine became a Christian.

I

 

[Cassian]

The Church has stood for almost 2000 years. It was Constantinople that broke away, and they were torn asunder. Then came the Reformation and the Protestants have torn asunder. Only one church has stood, growing larger and larger. Only one church can be shown to have existed since the 1st century.

Tell me why the Church never had a Pope (Papacy) until after it split. Explain to me why after Rome split they changed the Gospel of Christ, and Holy Tradition by changing the filioque, then added the Papacy, later adopted Augustines doctrine of Original sin so that much later to correct that mistake you needed to add the Immaculate Conception of Mary. YOu added infallibility of the Pope and discarded the infallibility of the Body through which the Holy Spirit works, not individual man.

You have changed how man is saved, added Purgatory and its associated merits, penance, and indulgences. I noticed that you have now changed your Mass also to be more like the Protestants is being what they call "seeker churches". Forgetting that the Church is communion of believers worshipping and praising God, giving to God ourselves and the world he gave to us as a living sacrifice which He bestows back to us as His living Body and Blood.

There is much that both history and theology that dispute your claims. What is simply piety of Mary, you have elevated way out of proportion and made it a dogma with the possibility of declaring her Redemptrix. The RCC Church is no longer catholic since the Pope elevated himself over an organization and substituted himself as Christ the Head.

I was once a Protestant and very carefully checked the claims of both, and it is very manifest where the Holy Spirit resides and who has the legitiment claim to the True One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Any serious researcher can easily discern the difference.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you are speaking of the Roman Catholic church then you are wrong. Constantine did not start it, it already existed before Constantine became a Christian.

I

it may have been one of the many churches (I have never seen proof of this, not saying it did not exist) but he is the one who helped give it its power with the might of the roman army.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Tell me why the Church never had a Pope (Papacy) until after it split. Explain to me why after Rome split they changed the Gospel of Christ, and Holy Tradition by changing the filioque, then added the Papacy, later adopted Augustines doctrine of Original sin so that much later to correct that mistake you needed to add the Immaculate Conception of Mary. YOu added infallibility of the Pope and discarded the infallibility of the Body through which the Holy Spirit works, not individual man.

You have changed how man is saved, added Purgatory and its associated merits, penance, and indulgences. I noticed that you have now changed your Mass also to be more like the Protestants is being what they call "seeker churches". Forgetting that the Church is communion of believers worshipping and praising God, giving to God ourselves and the world he gave to us as a living sacrifice which He bestows back to us as His living Body and Blood.

There is much that both history and theology that dispute your claims. What is simply piety of Mary, you have elevated way out of proportion and made it a dogma with the possibility of declaring her Redemptrix. The RCC Church is no longer catholic since the Pope elevated himself over an organization and substituted himself as Christ the Head.

I was once a Protestant and very carefully checked the claims of both, and it is very manifest where the Holy Spirit resides and who has the legitiment claim to the True One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Any serious researcher can easily discern the difference.

Purgatory was not new. And it was practiced by the church after the mass excommunications because people denied Christ for fear of death during roman persecution (a mortal sin according to the church). Penance and purgatory gave them a means to allow them back into the church.

You do not know your history very well do you

 

[Cassian]

Scripture teaches that scripture is completely able to

1. Doctrine (teach you ALL truth)
2. Reproof (Coorect wrong thinking or beliefs)
3. Instruct in righteousness (tell us everything we need to know how to do the things of God)

a huge assumption is that you actually know what it means so that you can actually divide it which means teach it.
All man has done, each sola scripturists is redefine what it means, then use these texts for its new meaning.

as paul says:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

If scripture can do all this. Nothing more can be added which can make us MORE COMPLETE and MORE EQUIPPED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK.

scripture has done that for the Chruch.
It also does it for you, even though you completely change the meaning of the text. You are equipping whoever you are espousing your personal interpretation of that text.

And paul said this before scripture was even completed.

But I can assure you that the Isrealites did NOT first interpret scripture but learned it as it was handed down. It is when they forgot that they were punished, and this is also the Pharisees who added their own traditions to the Oracles that God have given to Isreal. Now we have sola scripturists adding their multiple traditions voiding the actual Gospel.

Paul also said we had enough truth in scripture before the NT was written to be saved.

Yes, because he was using the OT as archtype and fulfillment of prophecy for the NT Gospel. Isralites were saved also, but they did not have the NT either.

finally. God did not spend 200 year to give us a book. only to leave it unfinished.

He didn't start with a book, He started by giving it to the Apostles who instructed the early Church. The letters were not even purposed to be written in place of the Tradition. It was Tradition that was the cultural custom which had been used for centuries before. It was used since then as well. The text supplements the Tradition. They cannot be separated which is quite obvious.

 

[Atwood]

Where is OSAS in any of these verses? No place.

Eternal security is as obvious there as the nose on your face.

You cite a text about faith, but faith is given to evey human being.

False, the Word says that all men have not faith. All men do not have faith in the Lord Jesus. I see that you indicate that you don't. You are a prime example.

Now Cassian goes on, just saying things. Where is the proof?
Actually I have done a lot of theological study. Whether or not men have enough common grace to believe, is off the subject. The gospel goes out to whosoever will. Predestination and election are in the Bible, however you may figure it out. And mentioning Calvin doesn't help your argument. You may as well deny the Trinity if Calvin believed it.

I help you see the eternal security with some red letters:

Read the texts prayerfully Cassian. Go as the Spirit convicts you.

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

John 6:40

For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.

Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Ephesians 1:1-23
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

a huge assumption is that you actually know what it means so that you can actually divide it which means teach it.
All man has done, each sola scripturists is redefine what it means, then use these texts for its new meaning.


scripture has done that for the Chruch.
It also does it for you, even though you completely change the meaning of the text. You are equipping whoever you are espousing your personal interpretation of that text. [/B][/COLOR]

But I can assure you that the Isrealites did NOT first interpret scripture but learned it as it was handed down. It is when they forgot that they were punished, and this is also the Pharisees who added their own traditions to the Oracles that God have given to Isreal. Now we have sola scripturists adding their multiple traditions voiding the actual Gospel.

Yes, because he was using the OT as archtype and fulfillment of prophecy for the NT Gospel. Isralites were saved also, but they did not have the NT either.

He didn't start with a book, He started by giving it to the Apostles who instructed the early Church. The letters were not even purposed to be written in place of the Tradition. It was Tradition that was the cultural custom which had been used for centuries before. It was used since then as well. The text supplements the Tradition. They cannot be separated which is quite obvious.

Paul said scripture can teach the man of God all those things. Make them complete in Christ. And make them fully prepared for every good work.

If this is not true. Paul lied.

There is no personal interpretation. He said it. I believe it. End of story.


You do not believe it only because it does not suit your belief. Thats to bad.

 

[Atwood]

a huge assumption .

Cassian, why do you just keep saying things? You give no proof, just say things. You claim things about tradition for which you have no proof. Human tradition was denounced by the Lord Jesus. When Paul refers to tradition it is to the words of prophets, namely himself. I already quoted scripture on this.

 

[Atwood]

I was once a Protestant and very carefully checked the claims of both, and it is very manifest where the Holy Spirit resides and who has the legitiment claim to the True One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Any serious researcher can easily discern the difference.

Note how you spill a lot of ink, but prove nothing.

I too was a protestant before I trusted the Lord Jesus as my only and sufficient Savior. No organization has a claim to be the Body of Christ. You only get in by trusting Christ as Savior & being baptized with the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13). the Church is no denomination

 

[Cassian]

Purgatory was not new. And it was practiced by the church after the mass excommunications because people denied Christ for fear of death during roman persecution (a mortal sin according to the church). Penance and purgatory gave them a means to allow them back into the church.

You do not know your history very well do you

Admittedly I don't know everything about the RCC. Some of what is included, such as prayers for the dead is ancient and Orthodox as well. But Purgatory as the RCC developed it with its associated tenets of indulgences, merit, and penance, and their classifications of sins are all unknown in Orthodoxy.
The RCC also made it a dogma. which means necessary for salvation.
The same for Marilogy. We venerate Mary, but have not elevated her to the status of dogma either.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Note how you spill a lot of ink, but prove nothing.

I too was a protestant before I trusted the Lord Jesus as my only and sufficient Savior. No organization has a claim to be the Body of Christ. You only get in by trusting Christ as Savior & being baptized with the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13). the Church is no denomination

true.

I must say though I sort of agree with him. If I trusted denominationalism , I would become catholic or orthodox. they have the most sacraments, Which means they have more chances to make it to heaven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Admittedly I don't know everything about the RCC. Some of what is included, such as prayers for the dead is ancient and Orthodox as well. But Purgatory as the RCC developed it with its associated tenets of indulgences, merit, and penance, and their classifications of sins are all unknown in Orthodoxy.
The RCC also made it a dogma. which means necessary for salvation.
The same for Marilogy. We venerate Mary, but have not elevated her to the status of dogma either.

I believe they also made it a defense which was punishable by death. In some of their heresies (mary was one of them)

 

[Atwood]

If you are speaking of the Roman Catholic church then you are wrong. Constantine did not start it, it already existed before Constantine became a Christian.

I

Greetings Kenneth, I don't recall posting to you before.

Now do you mind if I ask you for proof that the RCC existed before Constantine? Why is there no such thing in the Bible? Isn't Roman and Catholic self-contradictory? the Church is no Roman sect, but all who trust Christ as only & sufficient Savior, entering the Body of Christ only by baptism of the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13).

Would it not be better to say that the papacy evolved over many centuries with the RCC reaching its relatively final state (with papal infallibility) at the Council of Trent?

There is no papal office in the NT, no cardinals. There is a plurality of elders wherever elders are seen, with bishop being an equivalent term -- no monarchal bishops. A Bible qualification for elder is being the husband of one wife, like Peter. All believers are priests in the NT, the Church is a kingdom of priests. There is no worship of Mary or a special group called "saints." All believers are "saints."

 

[Cassian]

Note how you spill a lot of ink, but prove nothing.

I too was a protestant before I trusted the Lord Jesus as my only and sufficient Savior. No organization has a claim to be the Body of Christ. You only get in by trusting Christ as Savior & being baptized with the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13). the Church is no denomination

The Body of Christ is organic, ontological, an extension of His Incarnation. It is NOT an organization, nor is it a denomination. It is the Body of Christ.

You are absolutely correct no one, no organization can claim to be the Body of Christ except Christ who is the Head of that Body which He established here on earth. It is ONLY His Body that can make that claim.

It just is not the Protestant idea of a mythical philosophical concept that does not really exist in reality.