It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
- Thread starter Atwood
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E
I never said we did. You have your own gospel. No other church has your gospel. (well except your sister the roman catholic church) Funny how your church says they can get to heaven though even though Scripture makes clear there is only one gospel.
And it is another strawman. God did not sped 200 years putting his word together, only to have a church in the 300's AD discount it as merely a part of Gods message (the jews did this when they placed tradition and their extra biblical writings as equal to the word of God)
Your church looks so much like the jews,, yet you can not even see it You made the exact same mistakes they made. And your oblivious to it. You hate the jews for what they did. Yet you do the very same things they did. Talk abotu being hypocritical.
Read the text Cassian. What is precisely at the end is the revelation of the salvation, not the salvation. Eternal life is a present possession as reiterated in scripture, though salvation is in 3 tenses, past, present, and future.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat [past tense] us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto
an inheritance [received at the begetting and currently present]
incorruptible, [present and future]
and undefiled, and
that fades not away, [present tense]
reserved in heaven for you, [presently reserved]
who by the power of God are guarded [present tense]
through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time [future].
Have you even read the Bible through once? Have you looked at all the references to faith?
How about "To you it is given . . . to believe"?
I say that since the passage guarantees the outcome of salvation, and also says that the means is through faith,
given those two facts, what other conclusion can one come to but that God maintains the faith of the believer? Did the Lord Jesus maintain Peter's faith when Peter was to be sifted by satan? Do you recall that the Lord Jesus prayed that Peter's faith would not fail? Was the Lord Jesus praying in vain?
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: but I made supplication for thee, that thy faith fail not; and do thou, when once thou hast turned again, establish thy brethren."
(What about the spiritual gift of faith? Does God maintain that?) 1 Cor 12: "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit withal. For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit: to another faith,"
But no matter upon my explanation of the means of faith, the fact is not in doubt because a means is specified. By the power of God the believer is guarded unto salvation. The means of faith does not change that.
You go on say things you don't prove; thus the claims are futile.
Great statement. God's word is perspicuous and doesn't require tradition. Thus you can read it, and be convicted by the Holy Spirit.
Next you bring in straw men, like RCC Hitler and Stalin (was he orthodox born?) And you bring in Joseph Smith, who must agree with your antagonism to eternal security.
You seem to misunderstand the claim of eternal security. This is not a thing which church members have nor babies sprinkled, nor Calvinists for signing a doctrinal statement. It is trusting the Lord Jesus as your only and sufficient Savior, something neither Hitler, nor Stalin, or Joseph Smith did (so far as we know). I was sprinkled as a baby in a methodist church, but raised elsewhere. But though i was a church member as a child and to my 18th birthday, I was not saved. If someone asked me where I would go when I died, I did not know. I was taught it was wrong to think you knew you would go to heaven. But the Bible gives assurance. And if one trusts Christ as SAvior, then one knows one is saved -- else you don't trust Him to get you there.
so very true, Cassian. Now when will you put your faith in the Lord Jesus as only & sufficient Savior and have confidence that He will save you by virtue of His death on the cross and current intercession?
Read the texts prayerfully Cassian. Go as the Spirit convicts you.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Romans 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be.
Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Ephesians 1:1-23
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus
Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat [past tense] us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto
an inheritance [received at the begetting and currently present]
incorruptible, [present and future]
and undefiled, and
that fades not away, [present tense]
reserved in heaven for you, [presently reserved]
who by the power of God are guarded [present tense]
through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time [future].
Have you even read the Bible through once? Have you looked at all the references to faith?
How about "To you it is given . . . to believe"?
I say that since the passage guarantees the outcome of salvation, and also says that the means is through faith,
given those two facts, what other conclusion can one come to but that God maintains the faith of the believer? Did the Lord Jesus maintain Peter's faith when Peter was to be sifted by satan? Do you recall that the Lord Jesus prayed that Peter's faith would not fail? Was the Lord Jesus praying in vain?
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: but I made supplication for thee, that thy faith fail not; and do thou, when once thou hast turned again, establish thy brethren."
(What about the spiritual gift of faith? Does God maintain that?) 1 Cor 12: "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit withal. For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit: to another faith,"
But no matter upon my explanation of the means of faith, the fact is not in doubt because a means is specified. By the power of God the believer is guarded unto salvation. The means of faith does not change that.
You go on say things you don't prove; thus the claims are futile.
Great statement. God's word is perspicuous and doesn't require tradition. Thus you can read it, and be convicted by the Holy Spirit.
Next you bring in straw men, like RCC Hitler and Stalin (was he orthodox born?) And you bring in Joseph Smith, who must agree with your antagonism to eternal security.
You seem to misunderstand the claim of eternal security. This is not a thing which church members have nor babies sprinkled, nor Calvinists for signing a doctrinal statement. It is trusting the Lord Jesus as your only and sufficient Savior, something neither Hitler, nor Stalin, or Joseph Smith did (so far as we know). I was sprinkled as a baby in a methodist church, but raised elsewhere. But though i was a church member as a child and to my 18th birthday, I was not saved. If someone asked me where I would go when I died, I did not know. I was taught it was wrong to think you knew you would go to heaven. But the Bible gives assurance. And if one trusts Christ as SAvior, then one knows one is saved -- else you don't trust Him to get you there.
so very true, Cassian. Now when will you put your faith in the Lord Jesus as only & sufficient Savior and have confidence that He will save you by virtue of His death on the cross and current intercession?
Read the texts prayerfully Cassian. Go as the Spirit convicts you.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Romans 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be.
Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Ephesians 1:1-23
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus
Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Cassian, I didn't say the verse was on eternal security. I thought perhaps you would benefit by starting from square 1 on the gospel; and Romans must be the most through and systematic presentation of salvation in the Bible.
Romans gets one lost before it gets one saved:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; 19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
Romans gets one lost before it gets one saved:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; 19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
The whole explanation of Heb 6 is in 6:9, where we learn that the earlier verses describe a professor (like Judas Iscariot), not a born again believer:
"But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:"
As a general rule on problem passages, one reads on further for an explanation.
E
This passage explains every one of us (the sins)
I like what he says in chapter 2. If we judge someone for doing this. WHEN WE DO THE VERY SAME THING (SIN) We judge ourself.
Should ba a huge note to those who want to judge murderers and adulterers. They are just as guilty as the ones they call sinners are. (but some of us like to leave parts of that list out. So it does not fit us..
I like what he says in chapter 2. If we judge someone for doing this. WHEN WE DO THE VERY SAME THING (SIN) We judge ourself.
Should ba a huge note to those who want to judge murderers and adulterers. They are just as guilty as the ones they call sinners are. (but some of us like to leave parts of that list out. So it does not fit us..
E
I think a better explanation is in the later verses.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
This speaks of rewards. or fruit. The useful herbs would be gold silver precious stone. the thorns and briars would be wood hey and straw. The near to being cursed would be the one still saved, even though as through Fire.
Again going back to the law. and blessing and cursing on how well you followed the law. (vs what the jews were saying, and eternal life being based on how well you obeyed the law) Which is what he was preaching against.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
This speaks of rewards. or fruit. The useful herbs would be gold silver precious stone. the thorns and briars would be wood hey and straw. The near to being cursed would be the one still saved, even though as through Fire.
Again going back to the law. and blessing and cursing on how well you followed the law. (vs what the jews were saying, and eternal life being based on how well you obeyed the law) Which is what he was preaching against.
I put the definition and challenge to Cassian, but he did not respond. I don't wish to espouse "sola scriptura," or argue for "sola scriptura" because then we might end up arguing about what that phrase means & how it has been used in past debate -- a waste of time.
My POV is that the Bible is the Word of God, and that besides the Bible there is no document readily available to men in general which is the Word of God. Then I challenge persons like Cassian to prove that some document besides the Bible is a readily available to men in general Word of God. Also Cassian and company might explain how it is that after the last book of the NT was written, no document produced after the NT has ever been added to the NT successfully. But Cassian was silent on my challenge.
We should all admit that there were probably oral prophecies not recorded in the Bible; those oral prophecies were God's Word, but they are not available to us. And in Heaven God no doubt speaks within the Trinity and to angels -- all of which is the Word of God. But those sayings are not readily available to men in general.
As to Cassian's obsession with Calvin (?), he may as well claim that the Trinity is wrong because Calvin believed it, or that believing the Trinity makes one a Calvinist, since Calvin believed it.
My POV is that the Bible is the Word of God, and that besides the Bible there is no document readily available to men in general which is the Word of God. Then I challenge persons like Cassian to prove that some document besides the Bible is a readily available to men in general Word of God. Also Cassian and company might explain how it is that after the last book of the NT was written, no document produced after the NT has ever been added to the NT successfully. But Cassian was silent on my challenge.
We should all admit that there were probably oral prophecies not recorded in the Bible; those oral prophecies were God's Word, but they are not available to us. And in Heaven God no doubt speaks within the Trinity and to angels -- all of which is the Word of God. But those sayings are not readily available to men in general.
As to Cassian's obsession with Calvin (?), he may as well claim that the Trinity is wrong because Calvin believed it, or that believing the Trinity makes one a Calvinist, since Calvin believed it.
Yes, and that is the Gospel of Christ entrusted to His Body and preserved by the Holy Spirit. Something you cannot say about your personal gospel or any sola scripturist gospel. It changes constantly, whereas the Gospel of Christ has not changed in 2000 years.
When and what Church discounted anything after 300 years. Your history may be deficient here. Are you saying that Christ who is Head of His Church discounted something? What would that have been?
Like sola scripturists do. YOu have developed hundreds if not thousands of gospel, very private ones for the most part. Surely not a universal, one gospel that Christ gave.
We are much like the Jews, the early Church was mostly Jews and was established using many of the Jewish practices. But what traditions do we have like the Pharisees? It seems your history is again distorted. The Church knows ONLY ONE Tradition. The Gospel the Revelation of God to man given by the Holy Spirit to the Apostles. The same Tradition Paul tells Timothy to keep. Which has been kept and handed down continually from the beginning unchanged by man.
A sola scripturist cannot even get outside of his own interpretation which is why all sola scripturist are different and all have a different gospel, a sectarian, personal one with a few followers. It is why you don't understand each other.
When and what Church discounted anything after 300 years. Your history may be deficient here. Are you saying that Christ who is Head of His Church discounted something? What would that have been?
Like sola scripturists do. YOu have developed hundreds if not thousands of gospel, very private ones for the most part. Surely not a universal, one gospel that Christ gave.
We are much like the Jews, the early Church was mostly Jews and was established using many of the Jewish practices. But what traditions do we have like the Pharisees? It seems your history is again distorted. The Church knows ONLY ONE Tradition. The Gospel the Revelation of God to man given by the Holy Spirit to the Apostles. The same Tradition Paul tells Timothy to keep. Which has been kept and handed down continually from the beginning unchanged by man.
A sola scripturist cannot even get outside of his own interpretation which is why all sola scripturist are different and all have a different gospel, a sectarian, personal one with a few followers. It is why you don't understand each other.
E
Your right. But it is not the gospel your church invented in 300 Ad, and spent 1500 years killing. maiming and casting out of society anyone who did not agree with them.
It is the one Timothy knew as a child, before the NT was even completed.
Typical though, You ignored the fact your church claims people who have a different gospel than them can still be saved. Making Paul a liar.
Just like you read the word of God. you read people posts. You only respond to things you think you can get away with, You ignore things you know you can not respond to (or twist them into somethign else)
It is the one Timothy knew as a child, before the NT was even completed.
Typical though, You ignored the fact your church claims people who have a different gospel than them can still be saved. Making Paul a liar.
Just like you read the word of God. you read people posts. You only respond to things you think you can get away with, You ignore things you know you can not respond to (or twist them into somethign else)
Where is OSAS in any of these verses? No place.
You cite a text about faith, but faith is given to evey human being. God has given every single human being all the necessary gifts to know Him. God is making sure that every man has the ability and capability to believe. It is all up to man and on man's choice and actions will he be judged. God is NOT going to judge Himself on how well He kept you. That is your responsibility just as it was Adam's in the beginning. God has not changed the purpose of creating man just because man fell. Christ redeemed the world from the fall, so that all men could again have the authority, right to believe and become Sons of God. But man does not give up his free will just because He joins with God in a relationship. Man's faith is being tested and the divine judgement will be made at the end.
OSAS is a denial of God's sovereign will in creating man free with a rational soul to be able to interact with God freely in love and obedience. OSAS denies God's sovereignty and purpose. You need to study some elementary theology and not with the blinders of Calvin's false premise of predestination/OSAS.
You cite a text about faith, but faith is given to evey human being. God has given every single human being all the necessary gifts to know Him. God is making sure that every man has the ability and capability to believe. It is all up to man and on man's choice and actions will he be judged. God is NOT going to judge Himself on how well He kept you. That is your responsibility just as it was Adam's in the beginning. God has not changed the purpose of creating man just because man fell. Christ redeemed the world from the fall, so that all men could again have the authority, right to believe and become Sons of God. But man does not give up his free will just because He joins with God in a relationship. Man's faith is being tested and the divine judgement will be made at the end.
OSAS is a denial of God's sovereign will in creating man free with a rational soul to be able to interact with God freely in love and obedience. OSAS denies God's sovereignty and purpose. You need to study some elementary theology and not with the blinders of Calvin's false premise of predestination/OSAS.
Theological conflict didn't begin w/ the Prot reformation, it goes back to the Garden of Eden: Yea hath God said. And I believe that at one time, about the only Ecclesiastical authority who was not a heretic on the Trinity or the Theanthropic Union in Christ was Athanasius (Contra Mundum) in the 4th Century. And I don't think that the RCC had a shortage of persons to persecute and attack over theology at any time in its history, way before Martin Luther. And how often were Rome and Constantinople at each other's throats, sending each other to Hell?
The modern mainline Prot typically denies the basics of the faith, like that the Bible is God's Word. Anything goes, even marrying 2 men or 2 women.
So there are a number of false gospels.
The true gospel is: Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. You must rest in Him as your only and sufficient Savior, believing that He is and will save you, not that He gives you a chance at it.
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God who justifies; who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The modern mainline Prot typically denies the basics of the faith, like that the Bible is God's Word. Anything goes, even marrying 2 men or 2 women.
So there are a number of false gospels.
The true gospel is: Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. You must rest in Him as your only and sufficient Savior, believing that He is and will save you, not that He gives you a chance at it.
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God who justifies; who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Yes, you should heed this as well. God is making sure no man can say to Him at the judgement that they did not have the opportunity to know Him. Every single human being will be judged on the measure of grace each was given. Which then follows that those that have received the most, those that have beleived then fallen away their punishement will be worse than any other. Hardly a good start for OSAS.
E
Amen. Look at all the theological conflict paul dealt with in the NT. It is not like it just disapeared and reapeared in the so called protestant reformation.
The so called reformation only occured because before that time, they would have been killed. Maimed. Jailed. Cast out into some deserted island, and everything else the roman church did for 1500 years.
If the roman church held its power. there still would have been no protestant reformation (luther, Calvin, Arminian and the others would have beem killed as heretics) the true church would still be underground.
The so called reformation only occured because before that time, they would have been killed. Maimed. Jailed. Cast out into some deserted island, and everything else the roman church did for 1500 years.
If the roman church held its power. there still would have been no protestant reformation (luther, Calvin, Arminian and the others would have beem killed as heretics) the true church would still be underground.
I don't know of a church that invented anything in 300 Ad.
Christ's Church was established in 33AD at Pentecost. It is still in existence today, in many of the very same cities and with the very same Gospel.
I'm not sure what church you have in mind, but the Church Christ established, evey though severely persecuted had spread throughout the entire Roman Empire at that time. Constantine legalized Christianity so the persecution stopped and the Church grew mightily.
The Holy Spirit preserved His Body through the persecutions then and subsequent ones. More Orthodox Christians have been purged and martyred in the 20th century than all Christians prior to the 20th century. They are still be persecuted severely today in many countries.
No not as a child. The teachings of Paul which was before the NT was even begun with just a few letters of Paul. It is the meaning of God's revelation that was given even before the NT was completely written.
Our Church is Paul's Church. There will be many in heaven who have not been a member of Christ's Church here on earth in this Messianic Age. Those that have never heard the Gospel will fall under Rom 2:18-24. Who and how God saves others is only known to Him. But his gospel clearly states that those that received His Gospel the Revelation given to the NT Church, can only be saved through Him, His body, the Church. Those outside of His embrace are left to His Mercy.
Most of what you say is quite irrelevant to the topic. If it is relevant I'll comment. Here is another thread, 400+ posts and the Op or any proponents have yet to produce a single text that supports OSAS as the Gospel of Christ has always been believed, understood and practiced within His Body, the One He established and through which the Holy Spirit guards both the Body and the Gospel entrusted to it. God does keep His promises. He will maintain His Gospel, it will always be unified as he is with the Father. The Trinity is not a mass of confusion and chaos as sola scripturist have done with a text that was never meant to be a stand-alone book. It was not meant for man to develop his own sectarian philosophical religions.
Christ's Church was established in 33AD at Pentecost. It is still in existence today, in many of the very same cities and with the very same Gospel.
I'm not sure what church you have in mind, but the Church Christ established, evey though severely persecuted had spread throughout the entire Roman Empire at that time. Constantine legalized Christianity so the persecution stopped and the Church grew mightily.
The Holy Spirit preserved His Body through the persecutions then and subsequent ones. More Orthodox Christians have been purged and martyred in the 20th century than all Christians prior to the 20th century. They are still be persecuted severely today in many countries.
No not as a child. The teachings of Paul which was before the NT was even begun with just a few letters of Paul. It is the meaning of God's revelation that was given even before the NT was completely written.
Our Church is Paul's Church. There will be many in heaven who have not been a member of Christ's Church here on earth in this Messianic Age. Those that have never heard the Gospel will fall under Rom 2:18-24. Who and how God saves others is only known to Him. But his gospel clearly states that those that received His Gospel the Revelation given to the NT Church, can only be saved through Him, His body, the Church. Those outside of His embrace are left to His Mercy.
Most of what you say is quite irrelevant to the topic. If it is relevant I'll comment. Here is another thread, 400+ posts and the Op or any proponents have yet to produce a single text that supports OSAS as the Gospel of Christ has always been believed, understood and practiced within His Body, the One He established and through which the Holy Spirit guards both the Body and the Gospel entrusted to it. God does keep His promises. He will maintain His Gospel, it will always be unified as he is with the Father. The Trinity is not a mass of confusion and chaos as sola scripturist have done with a text that was never meant to be a stand-alone book. It was not meant for man to develop his own sectarian philosophical religions.
Cassian, I call you out on Sola Scriptura. You have gone on about it saying this and that with no Bible proof, just you say it.
Now I want you to prove that sola scriptura is wrong.
Or better, prove that my POV is wrong (I do not call it sola scripture, BTW). Prove or retract, Cassian.
MY POV:
The Bible is the only document which is readily available to the common man, which is the Word of God.
Now to disprove that I challenge you to bring forth an prove that any other document (readily available to the common man) is God's Word.
If you cannot, kindly retract.
Now I want you to prove that sola scriptura is wrong.
Or better, prove that my POV is wrong (I do not call it sola scripture, BTW). Prove or retract, Cassian.
MY POV:
The Bible is the only document which is readily available to the common man, which is the Word of God.
Now to disprove that I challenge you to bring forth an prove that any other document (readily available to the common man) is God's Word.
If you cannot, kindly retract.