It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
- Thread starter Atwood
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To make a statement like this tells me you do not know that there are different kinds of works. There are works of the law, Romans 3: 28, works of righteousness that is our own righteousness Titus 3:5 and works of obedience, Luke 13:3. Are you telling me that we are not even required to do works that are in indirect obedience to Christ's demands ? So, we don't even have to repent, right?[/QUOTE]
Brother, There are works that are a result, a response to God's amazing Grace. in the we have today entered God's courts with thanksgiving and praise, as Kind David looked forward to this in Psalms 100:4, we are looking back to it as Job looked forward in Job 19:25. We are looking back ant this in complete thankfulness, and as Peter said the house of Cornelius, who can refuse water Baptism, in response to this amazing gift of the Holy Spirit of truth
So who can refuse work
I think none of us here aree talking a slothful salvation, at least I pray this and trust Father in this to cause each of us to stand and do what Father calls each of us to do. And tha tis the works of love already done by Christ in fulfillment of Law and Prophets. So we by Faith do the same being led in place of leading
Does this help for us all to communicate?
Originally Posted by Atwood
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
James 2:20-24
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
James 2:20-24
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Attention, You Who Labor,
Thinking Your Works Will Bring Justification by the Lord:
Come to me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and
I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me;
for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest to your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
This is a gracious offer, but also a command.
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.
The commandment of the gospel is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. To disobey the commandment to believe is to fail to enter God's promises for unbelief.
Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; 5 and in this place again,
They shall not enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience, he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before),
Today if you shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts.
For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience. < Heb 4
Now is the Day of Salvation. Now is the day to rest from self-righteousness and the delusion of having your works validated in judgment.
Trust the Lord Jesus today with your eternal destiny; rest in the arms of His care.
Thinking Your Works Will Bring Justification by the Lord:
Come to me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and
I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me;
for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest to your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
This is a gracious offer, but also a command.
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.
The commandment of the gospel is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. To disobey the commandment to believe is to fail to enter God's promises for unbelief.
Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; 5 and in this place again,
They shall not enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience, he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before),
Today if you shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts.
For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience. < Heb 4
Now is the Day of Salvation. Now is the day to rest from self-righteousness and the delusion of having your works validated in judgment.
Trust the Lord Jesus today with your eternal destiny; rest in the arms of His care.
I see this know1, yet as you stated this
tells me this:
1 Corinthians 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
For me sir, it is all God, I am nothing more than God's water glass to be used and filled by God alone, for I know nothing od me, myseld ands or the "I" that easily decieves one into self righteousness behavior
Please as I see you do beleive, be carful as to not think you know, and have to be humbled as Paul speaks of in 2 Cor 12.
Praying for us both. Knowing God is our teacher to all truth that set sus free and never in I know it attitudes of the flesh
I say this for both of our edification, thanks for reading.
tells me this:
1 Corinthians 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
For me sir, it is all God, I am nothing more than God's water glass to be used and filled by God alone, for I know nothing od me, myseld ands or the "I" that easily decieves one into self righteousness behavior
Please as I see you do beleive, be carful as to not think you know, and have to be humbled as Paul speaks of in 2 Cor 12.
Praying for us both. Knowing God is our teacher to all truth that set sus free and never in I know it attitudes of the flesh
I say this for both of our edification, thanks for reading.
JUSTIFICATION OR A DECLARATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
is by faith, not by works,
for the sinner who trusts Christ as Savior for a new nature and eternal life.
Rom 3-4 is most clear on this:
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
"But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
"for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.
Galatians 2
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Cephas before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest as do the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, how compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor.
And yet James 2 at first glance looks like it contradicts Rom 3-4, though James starts out here with different meaning of faith, that of intellectually being sure something is true, as opposed to trust in the Savior.
Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? You see that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. You see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
But note that James says both 1) Abe's belief brought Abe justification/righteousness (no works), and also 2) Abe was justified by works .
The term "justified" or "justification" does not mean saved or salvation. James does not say that anyone is saved by works. Sometimes justify and save amount to much the same thing. A lost person trusts the Lord Jesus and is saved; he is declared righteous (justified) by his identification with Christ (as the sinner was unrighteous by his identification with Adam); and this happens at a time when the sinner has no good works, but trusts the Savior.
Rom 5
" Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: . . .
"So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. "
It is through Christ's death on the cross that men (who trust Him) may be declared and made righteous.
Thus there are two aspects of justification:
1) the free gift of righteousness for those who trust Christ as Savior. Along with this comes a change to a godly nature and the consequent production of good works.
2) After a man is saved with His new nature the works that he does justify him in the sense that the works declare that he is righteous. Thus the unsaved man becomes justified only by faith. But after a man is saved his works do declare that he has this freely given new nature and the gift of eternal life, that He is righteous. (He is justified). His works thus justify him or declare him to be righteous after he has been justified only by faith.
is by faith, not by works,
for the sinner who trusts Christ as Savior for a new nature and eternal life.
Rom 3-4 is most clear on this:
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
"But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
"for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.
Galatians 2
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Cephas before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest as do the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, how compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor.
And yet James 2 at first glance looks like it contradicts Rom 3-4, though James starts out here with different meaning of faith, that of intellectually being sure something is true, as opposed to trust in the Savior.
Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? You see that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. You see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
But note that James says both 1) Abe's belief brought Abe justification/righteousness (no works), and also 2) Abe was justified by works .
The term "justified" or "justification" does not mean saved or salvation. James does not say that anyone is saved by works. Sometimes justify and save amount to much the same thing. A lost person trusts the Lord Jesus and is saved; he is declared righteous (justified) by his identification with Christ (as the sinner was unrighteous by his identification with Adam); and this happens at a time when the sinner has no good works, but trusts the Savior.
Rom 5
" Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: . . .
"So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. "
It is through Christ's death on the cross that men (who trust Him) may be declared and made righteous.
Thus there are two aspects of justification:
1) the free gift of righteousness for those who trust Christ as Savior. Along with this comes a change to a godly nature and the consequent production of good works.
2) After a man is saved with His new nature the works that he does justify him in the sense that the works declare that he is righteous. Thus the unsaved man becomes justified only by faith. But after a man is saved his works do declare that he has this freely given new nature and the gift of eternal life, that He is righteous. (He is justified). His works thus justify him or declare him to be righteous after he has been justified only by faith.
Salvation is a free gift.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Not 15 minutes of life and chance to get to heaven if you are a good boy thereafter.)
However, discipleship costs everything. Do not confuse the two.
But BTW, according to eternal security, everyone who trusts Christ as Savior does continue in eternal life forever.
Should not perish, but have everlasting life. (not just a shot at it)
Do not confuse how one gets saved (born again, old things pass away; behold all has become new), with what one is called to do after one is saved. Salvation is a free gift, but discipleship demands all. Saved implies one is made eternally secure by a Savior. Disciple means one is a learner. The two terms are not the same.
Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.
The word is not labor -- misleading translation. What I could say is Do not labor to stay out of that rest! You seem to be doing a lot of work to keep from trusting the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny. Stop struggling; let the Savior take care of you. You are like a drowning man for whom the Life Guard swims out to save you. But you want to restrain him and drown the both of you. You must rest in the Savior.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
The word is not labor -- misleading translation. What I could say is Do not labor to stay out of that rest! You seem to be doing a lot of work to keep from trusting the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny. Stop struggling; let the Savior take care of you. You are like a drowning man for whom the Life Guard swims out to save you. But you want to restrain him and drown the both of you. You must rest in the Savior.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
DO YOU REALLY WANT TO TRY TO PASS A JUDGMENT ON YOUR WORKS?
Out of a context which focuses on the utter depravity of man, stating that there is none righteous, no not one in Romans 1-3, someone selected these lines:
[SUP]"6 [/SUP]Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"
Yes, every man who fulfills 2:7 will get eternal life. But unfortunately, no one passes this test, which BTW includes the commandment of the Lord in the Sermon on the Mount:
You shall be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect.
The path of trying to implement the principle of 2:7 above (for eternal life) is the road to the Great White Throne judgment and damnation. For men "are all under sin." Read on in context:
but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who will render to every man according to his works: 7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: 8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, 9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek; 10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek: 11 for there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law; . . ..
for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God;
12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit:
The poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: 20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
Out of a context which focuses on the utter depravity of man, stating that there is none righteous, no not one in Romans 1-3, someone selected these lines:
[SUP]"6 [/SUP]Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"
Yes, every man who fulfills 2:7 will get eternal life. But unfortunately, no one passes this test, which BTW includes the commandment of the Lord in the Sermon on the Mount:
You shall be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect.
The path of trying to implement the principle of 2:7 above (for eternal life) is the road to the Great White Throne judgment and damnation. For men "are all under sin." Read on in context:
but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who will render to every man according to his works: 7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: 8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, 9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek; 10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek: 11 for there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law; . . ..
for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God;
12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit:
The poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: 20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
At what point, through discipleship, is one [spiritually] mature enough to be considered saved? Do you see the problem with this line of thinking? If discipleship is the measure by which we are saved, we have to determine at what point is salvation ours. Is salvation ours in Christ, or is it in our discipleship? To where do you put your faith? If one fails to be a disciple, have they then lost their salvation? What of Peter, who denied Christ three times? You may say, "Yes, but he returned." Indeed, so is our salvation lost and then gained, moments at a time? In and out, saved and then condemned? Or, will you take what the Word says and believe it, that "There is therefore now no condemnation in Christ Jesus"?
Salvation is independent of all things, and completely dependent upon Christ, our discipleship is the means by which we mature, but [lack of] maturity does not negate sonship. A child is a son, or daughter, at birth, not after maturing. In the same way, we a born-again, by the Spirit of Adoption, and have become children of God. Our maturity is important, but it follows after salvation is ours, and is not a prerequisite to it. We are saved, and therefore, we become disciples, or "learners." Does lack of discipleship, or spiritual maturity cost us our salvation? What do we say of the Corinthians(who were in all manner of sin) and how Paul addressed them and some of the things he said to them?
[h=3]1 Corinthians 1[/h]King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Discipleship is important, but we must differentiate between salvation and discipleship. Discipleship will lead to eternal rewards in heaven, our works. But lack of discipleship does not mean loss of salvation. One can be a disciple and yet not believe (Judas). An except from a site(The Necessity of Discipleship | Ministry127 ):
[h=3]Believers Ought to Live as Disciples of Jesus[/h]People who have salvation in Christ have a moral obligation to follow Christ in discipleship. One of the most important calls to discipleship in the Bible is Romans 12:1, which shows us this truth very clearly: “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.”
Notice that the call is addressed to believers (brethren). Saved people are called to discipleship in this verse. Notice further that the discipleship decision of dedication is voluntary even for believers (I beseech you). It is not automatic that a believer will follow discipleship. But every saved person is morally obligated to give the Lord his total dedication (by the mercies of God). The entire book of Romans before chapter 12 is about the mercies of God by which we are saved. Now, because of them, we who have been saved are urged to live entirely for the One Who died for us. It is our “reasonable service.
Salvation is independent of all things, and completely dependent upon Christ, our discipleship is the means by which we mature, but [lack of] maturity does not negate sonship. A child is a son, or daughter, at birth, not after maturing. In the same way, we a born-again, by the Spirit of Adoption, and have become children of God. Our maturity is important, but it follows after salvation is ours, and is not a prerequisite to it. We are saved, and therefore, we become disciples, or "learners." Does lack of discipleship, or spiritual maturity cost us our salvation? What do we say of the Corinthians(who were in all manner of sin) and how Paul addressed them and some of the things he said to them?
[h=3]1 Corinthians 1[/h]King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Discipleship is important, but we must differentiate between salvation and discipleship. Discipleship will lead to eternal rewards in heaven, our works. But lack of discipleship does not mean loss of salvation. One can be a disciple and yet not believe (Judas). An except from a site(The Necessity of Discipleship | Ministry127 ):
[h=3]Believers Ought to Live as Disciples of Jesus[/h]People who have salvation in Christ have a moral obligation to follow Christ in discipleship. One of the most important calls to discipleship in the Bible is Romans 12:1, which shows us this truth very clearly: “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.”
Notice that the call is addressed to believers (brethren). Saved people are called to discipleship in this verse. Notice further that the discipleship decision of dedication is voluntary even for believers (I beseech you). It is not automatic that a believer will follow discipleship. But every saved person is morally obligated to give the Lord his total dedication (by the mercies of God). The entire book of Romans before chapter 12 is about the mercies of God by which we are saved. Now, because of them, we who have been saved are urged to live entirely for the One Who died for us. It is our “reasonable service.
So I'm going to throw these out once more, never heard anyone answer them before (except for Alligator - did I dis you on this earlier? My apologies if I did). Atwood? Care to field this one?
Hebrews Chapter 6 4For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5[/SUP] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6[/SUP] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
My nephew, who in his teens and 20's was a huge Jesus freak, now in his 30's says there is no God and that salvation in Jesus is a flat out lie.
So, because he accepted it in his early years, he does not suffer the same fate as all blasphemers for outright rejecting Him now?
That's not what Hebrews 6 says.
Hebrews Chapter 6 4For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5[/SUP] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6[/SUP] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
My nephew, who in his teens and 20's was a huge Jesus freak, now in his 30's says there is no God and that salvation in Jesus is a flat out lie.
So, because he accepted it in his early years, he does not suffer the same fate as all blasphemers for outright rejecting Him now?
That's not what Hebrews 6 says.
OK Rick; its a hot line drive into the ground in front of the short stop. He fearlessly charges the ball; grabs it, steps on 2nd (runner out), then he rifles it to first base dead on target. First baseman misses it & it hits the 1st base coach in the teeth, bouncing back to first baseman who steps on the plate just before the runner gets there!
Rick, Where have you bean? I has done quoted Heb 6:9 back on this one so many times now. Keep reading through verse 9 where it is explained. The apostates were not saved; just professors; everything said could be said of Judas. The apostates did not have the better things which accompany salvation.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:
apostasy is a fact of life. People profess, they "join the church," they are among the community of Christians. They they deny the faith and go away. That proves they were never really in the Body of Christ.
1 John 2 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.
If your nephew apostatized, that is nothing new, and it only illustrates what 1 John tells us.
Rick, are you ready to trust the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny now? Can you call on Him in faith and ask Him for a transformation, forgiveness of sins, and eternal life right now, depending on Him and His work on the cross for eternal life?
Rick, Where have you bean? I has done quoted Heb 6:9 back on this one so many times now. Keep reading through verse 9 where it is explained. The apostates were not saved; just professors; everything said could be said of Judas. The apostates did not have the better things which accompany salvation.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:
apostasy is a fact of life. People profess, they "join the church," they are among the community of Christians. They they deny the faith and go away. That proves they were never really in the Body of Christ.
1 John 2 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.
If your nephew apostatized, that is nothing new, and it only illustrates what 1 John tells us.
Rick, are you ready to trust the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny now? Can you call on Him in faith and ask Him for a transformation, forgiveness of sins, and eternal life right now, depending on Him and His work on the cross for eternal life?
Salvation is a free gift.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Not 15 minutes of life and chance to get to heaven if you are a good boy thereafter.)
However, discipleship costs everything. Do not confuse the two.
But BTW, according to eternal security, everyone who trusts Christ as Savior does continue in eternal life forever.
Should not perish, but have everlasting life. (not just a shot at it)
Do not confuse how one gets saved (born again, old things pass away; behold all has become new), with what one is called to do after one is saved. Salvation is a free gift, but discipleship demands all. Saved implies one is made eternally secure by a Savior. Disciple means one is a learner. The two terms are not the same.
In all your wisdom Atwood answer me truthfully
Can one be a disciple and not be saved?
Can one be saved and not be a disciple ?
Simple bible truths and you beat about the bush like a headless chicken... if you are saved and you are not a disciple say so and tell us how you work that miracle.