It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

newbirth · Jun 9, 2014

1)

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

.

[h=3]2 Thessalonians 2:14-17[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

know1 · Jun 9, 2014

Atwood said:

I am assuming that your points are written as though they are truths. Is that right?
If it is, then you have contradicted yourself sir.
Points 1,2, and 3 contradict 4, 5, and 6. If salvation is permanent, then points 4, 5, and 6 have been superseded by points 1, 2, and 3. In other words, it wouldn't matter what one does after they have been born again, since they can't lose what they already have. So they can't be cursed under the law, they cannot be cut off from Christ, nor can they go straight to the lake of fire for failing to obey God and His word.
It cannot be both ways.
One more point. There is more than one kind of works written in the bible. The one you are referring to has to do with obtaining ones righteousness through their own good works or deeds. The kind that gator might be referring to has to do with works that correspond to your faith. The kind written about in James, chapter 2.

Alligator · Jun 9, 2014

Atwood said:

When a heresy contradicts scripture, it is a matter of fact, not of who declares it.
The fact is based on scripture, not human tradition. Man is not above God's Word.
Once the Word declares a truth, that is the end of the argument, "It is written," not
"Sanctimonius Robe-Wearer," says it.

Cassian goes on, alien to Scripture: "It was finished for the world, for every human being. This is the gift of salvation given to the world, which makes the attainment of eternal life possible for a believer."

A man who believes in the Lord Jesus receives eternal life, not the possibility of eternal life.
"God so loved the World that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but HAVE everlasting life" -- not the possibility of it if he is a good boy.

"Everything is a gift."

Salvation is a free gift, rewards are earned (not free gift). Salvation cost the Lord Jesus His precious blood, but it costs the believer nothing; we get it as a gift.

But gifts are for a purpose.

"Christ redeemed the world from death and sin. That is a free gift (Rom 5:15) which is stated in vs 18, life being given to all men. That is Christ great gift of love, mercy and grace to the world, not just all men."

There are universal blessings from the atonement -- men get a time to have a change of mind and start trusting Him for salvation. But the atonement does not secure for all men eternal life; they must believe to appropriate the gift.

Cassian claims without any scripture:

"The purpose of that gift was to enable man to be joined with Christ is a living relationship that is covenantal. It is not a one sided arrangement with eternal life given simply on a one-time affirmation of faith."

Covenants with God are basically one-sided. God makes the conditions and the promises, as with Abraham. Abe was asleep when the covenant was finalized and Abe got no chance to make or alter provisions. The New Covenant is the same. God announced in Jeremiah 31 what was going to be what; and that was and is that.

Cassian makes more claims, but he should prove them or drop them. He gives no scripture. Cassian, I urge you to stop theorizing and pontificating and prove things from God's Word. First, believe His Word. Exhortations to be faithful do not alter that a bit.

Then Cassian gets into the Calvin Tulip, which is not necessary to affirm salvation. Predestination and election are in the Bible and did not come from paganism. Christians have different interps of election, which are not essential to affirming that the saved are saved. What Boettner opines is irrelevant, a straw man.

Cassian claimes :This statement has two conditions attached.
First, the verb " believe is in the present tense, active and continuing. The result of believing will not be finalized until the end " shall be saved." It never states one is saved or has been saved."

John 3:16 clearly states that the man who present tense is believing in the Lord Jesus shall have (future) everlasting life, a future of consequence, but if you take it as pure future, the result is the same. Everlasting life. No ifs, ands or buts.

Cassian says: "You are correct in that there is no ifs, ands or buts, but the conditions must be met. It is not simple, only, faith as Satan possesses."

Yes, it is not demonic faith believing merely that a fact is true. It is depending on the Lord Jesus, trusting in Him, which is the antithesis of demonic belief.

BTW, in my reading of Augustine, it seems to me that he did not believe in eternal security. But that is irrelevant, as it is the Word of God, not human tradition which is important.

Cassian says "this does not help you view either, since Christ's love of mankind will follow even those who reject Him right into hell. The very love God showers upon them, they perceive as fire. "

Romans 8 would be pointless if those who could not be separated from not merely God's love, but God's love IN CHRIST JESUS, were enduring the Lake of Fire. Total nonsense. Would you put the Lord Jesus in the Lake of Fire for believers who are in Christ Jesus to be there? But He has already figuratively suffered hell for us on the cross.

There is nothing in scripture about man being able to break the New Covenant.

Jer 31:

"Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, says YHWH. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says YHWH:

I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHWH; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

3Thus says YHWH, who gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves thereof roar; YHWH of hosts is his name: If these ordinances depart from before me, says YHWH, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. Thus says YHWH: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then will I also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says YHWH.

Heb 8:
"But now He has obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted upon better promises."

Heb 9
"For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling them that have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh: how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. "

Trust Him this day as your only & sufficient Savior; trust Him for eternal life, an inheritance, incorruptible and undefiled, that does not fade away!

Atwood, your posts are entirely too long. Why not reduce your points to two or three which will be easier to answer.. Besides, you're just repeating yourself anyway.

know1 · Jun 9, 2014

Hey Atwood, didn't you read post 1603?
I was looking forward to your reply and I didn't get one.
Don't you have any thoughts on what I said?
I was just curious as to what you thought.
Sometimes I wonder why I am being ignored.
I thought my arguments were reasonable and viable.

BenFTW · Jun 9, 2014

I have a question. For what reasons does one question the security of their salvation, and do they look at themselves for the final verdict? If it(salvation) is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and is not dependent upon you, but Christ, then by what measure are you determining the security of your salvation? If salvation is based on what Christ has done, then as He said on the cross, "It is finished."

To better state the first sentence, has the person questioning his eternal security done something to make them feel they've lost it? That being the case, there is a misunderstanding of what grace is and how salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. To question your eternal security is to put in question the finished work of the cross, and to put your faith in something other than Christ (if indeed the question arises out of one's own conduct/failure).

In summary: To deny eternal security, is to deny the Gospel. Your salvation is independent of all things, and completely dependent upon Christ. God wouldn't have it any other way, He loves you. You are His. We belong to Jesus, and He is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

Atwood · Jun 9, 2014

WANT TO BE JUDGED FOR YOUR WORKS?

I do not regret to inform you that the problem with justification by works is that neither you, nor I, nor anyone else will ever be justified by Works at the Bar of God's Judgment. Maybe you think that you just slip up a tad now and then. But your good works are so much more! Well pick up the pipe and smoke Roman starting in ch 1 on just how bad you and I have been, and apart from God's grace we will not get better. Do you not know that the works of man are a stench in the nostrils of the Almighty?

8 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; 19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: 25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.

28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto
a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all
unrighteousness,
wickedness,
covetousness,
maliciousness;
full of envy,
murder,
strife,
deceit,
malignity;
whisperers,
backbiters,
hateful to God,
insolent,
haughty,
boastful,
inventors of evil things,
disobedient to parents,
without understanding,
covenant-breakers,
without natural affection,
unmerciful:
who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.

Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things. 3 And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 but after

thy hardness and
impenitent heart

treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who will render to every man according to his works: 7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: 8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, 9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek; 10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek: 11 for there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For

as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and
as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: …

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that

they are all under sin;
as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God;
They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit:
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

Atwood · Jun 9, 2014

Originally Posted by Atwood

Point 1: As salvation is offered over and over again in the Word of God on one condition only, namely,
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved;
and since "Believe" is a command, it follows that there is but one command to obey for salvation: Namely believe in or trust the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

Point 2: Scripture is very clear by by grace we are saved through faith . . . not of works lest anyone should boast.

Point 3: The salvation one gets for this believing is an eternal salvation, not a mere chance at it or a 15 minute version.

Point 4: As many as are trying to be saved by the law are under the curse that you are cursed if you don't do it all.

Point 5: You cut yourself off from grace and the Lord Jesus as a Savior by trying to be justified by works.

Point 6: The 2 biggest commands are indeed love. And if you are going to be judged for whether or not you loved your neighbor as yourself and loved God with all your might, you are going straight to the Lake of Fire for your failure to do it.

know1 said:

There is no contradiction. Your argument is not cogent. Moreover, methinks that the Alligator (blessed be he) has to snap for himself.

All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.
The wages of Sin is death.
The Lake of Fire is the second death.

But God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Failing to believe in the Lord Jesus leaves one with no Savior to transform one's being and give one the gift of eternal life.

Indeed. The first way is the way of self-righteousness, pretending that one obeys God's commandments . This fails and ends in the Lake of Fire, because one does not keep the commandments.

The second way is the way of "God be merciful to me a sinner." That is the way of repenting of self-righteousness and trusting the SAvior for the free gift of eternal life.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

Good works are good works. There are pretend good works and real good works. No one does good works until He trusts Christ with His life and destiny. And even those good works do not bring salvation, but result from it.

You may not put the cart before the horse.

for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

The point of the thread is that our salvation is a salvation that implies that we are eternally secure in our Savior. If you do not trust Him for that salvation, how shall you escape neglecting so great a salvation? What a tragedy it is to talk yourself out of eternal life! But if you don't trust Him for it, you don't get it.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Atwood · Jun 9, 2014

know1 said:

Know1,

I had not seen that post. I try to respond to the retorts posted at me, but I didn't see yours. It takes a lot of time for me to find them and there are so many that it is easy to miss one. Your post is not on the topic of this thread. Thus I decided not to answer it here, but to send you a PM on it.

Far be it from me to ignore you. I had thought you were one who actually trusted Christ with your eternal destiny, as a Savior who gives eternal life. However, a recent post makes me wonder, since it presented the standard Bible plan of salvation with the futility of being saved by commandment keeping (because before salvation we don't at all, and after salvation in many things we all stumble). Thus salvation must be by grace through faith, or we are out of luck.

Atwood · Jun 9, 2014

newbirth said:

Salvation is a free gift.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Not 15 minutes of life and chance to get to heaven if you are a good boy thereafter.)

However, discipleship costs everything. Do not confuse the two.
But BTW, according to eternal security, everyone who trusts Christ as Savior does continue in eternal life forever.

Should not perish, but have everlasting life. (not just a shot at it)

newbirth · Jun 9, 2014

Do you read your bible?
Titus 1:16
King James Version
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
James 1:25
King James Version
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:12
King James Version
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Hebrews 10:24
King James Version
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Titus 3:8
King James Version
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Ephesians 2:10
King James Version
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

newbirth · Jun 9, 2014

Atwood said:

Romans 2:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

know1 · Jun 9, 2014

Atwood said:

Again, thanks for the correction.
My stance on this subject is a little different than most.
No, I don't believe in OSAS.
I do however believe one can lose their salvation, but not as most on this forum believe.
What I mean by that is, I believe, (as in, not knowing for certain) that a baby Christian cannot lose their salvation because of what God told me.
If a child can go to heaven without receiving Christ and not a man, then I think He will not hold a child, or baby Christian's stupidity against his or her salvation. Though on this one, I could be wrong, but not about losing ones salvation, mind you.

know1 · Jun 10, 2014

Atwood said:

Me thinks you missed one type of work that does matter. It is the kind written in James.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
You will agree that there is but one kind of faith that not only saves, but gets your prayers answered, right?
The only way to please God is by faith.
This God kind of faith, requires some action that corresponds to your believing.
Such as, I believe, and therefore speak. Speaking what you believe, is a work that puts your faith into motion.
A good example of a work of faith is when Peter pulled the impotent man to his feet after telling him to rise and walk.

Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Act 3:7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.

Atwood · Jun 10, 2014

know1 said:

If you are fascinated about my theology, you may want to go over everything i wrote before charging me with omitting this or that. Have you done that?

Good works are the result, not the cause of salvation. They inevitably follow faith; alleged faith that has no works would not be real faith.

Now as to kinds of good works, I don't find your theory cogent.

A good work is a good work; the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5). A good work is something the Lord loves and approves, a species of loving God or neighbor. Those who are not born again don't do any good works; they act out of their sinful Adamic nature. The only good works i know of are fruit of the Spirit. They are all that one and only kind, the fruit of the Spirit done by the man who abides in [fellowship with] Christ (John 15). Apart from Me, you can do nothing.

The point is

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. (no works cause salvation).

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

Atwood · Jun 10, 2014

know1 said:

Well, consider all the scripture I posted and make up your mind whether you can trust the Lord Jesus with your destiny or not.

Only a sample of evidence below:

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 10:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish,

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Atwood · Jun 10, 2014

newbirth said:

NewB,
Judgment is by works(God renders to every man according to his deeds); but
salvation is by faith.
Where will you end up on those standards?

There you have the principle of hypothetical justification by works; but no one qualifies thereby.
For there is none that does good, no not one.

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

finding yourself guilty by the above, what will you do? Pretend you qualify by your righteous well-doing, deluding yourself? Can you follow the argument in Romans 1-3?

For by grace you have been saved by faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

As to them who do not obey the truth:
Here is the truth:
For by grace you have been saved by faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

When will you obey that truth?

Atwood · Jun 10, 2014

newbirth said:

Do you read your life?
Do you see reprobate, abominable, disobedient?
There is none righteous, no not one.
When do you stop denying Christ as Savior?
Of course good works follow trusting Christ as Savior. And Christians will have their works judged for reward or loss of reward.
But
when will you trust Him so you can start doing good works?

newbirth · Jun 10, 2014

Atwood said:

In all your wisdom Atwood answer me truthfully
Can one be a disciple and not be saved?
Can one be saved and not be a disciple ?

newbirth · Jun 10, 2014

Atwood said:

No one is denying Christ as saviour, it is you who is denying him as Lord and Master that is why...

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

and Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

See the reward for continuance in well doing?

Bookends · Jun 10, 2014

RickyZ said:

might be true, but I noticed the "likes" stopped flowing since post #1606!

It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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