Jerusalem is not Mystery Babylon the Great PERIOD!!!

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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
(Rev 11:8 KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified

Jerusalem is the only place where "our Lord was crucified" - therefore the prophecy is dealing with only that city and apostate Israel that killed him and the prophets.
the jerusalem babylon theory is dependent on babylon being the place 'where also our lord was crucified'...

...the problem is that jesus was -not- actually crucified in jerusalem!

hebrews 13:12..."Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate."

it can be easily verified from elsewhere in scripture that the gate was considered to be the city limit...and consequently that jesus' crucifixion outside the gate of jerusalem means he was not crucified in jerusalem at all...

basically this jerusalem babylon theory starts out with a factual error...and then runs with it...the result is to multiply error upon error...

to get a correct understanding of what 'mystery babylon' stands for in revelation...look at what the image of a woman represents elsewhere in revelation...see especially revelation 12...and also look at what the image of a city represents elsewhere in scripture...see especially hebrews 11-13...
 
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Larry_Stotle

Guest
the jerusalem babylon theory is dependent on babylon being the place 'where also our lord was crucified'...

...the problem is that jesus was -not- actually crucified in jerusalem!
I see that as a nitpicking of words - If Jesus did not die at "Jerusalem" then his words here are false:

(Luke 13:32 KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

(Luke 13:33 KJV) Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

(Luke 13:34 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven,saying ,COME OUT OF HER , MY PEOPLE , that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

It is quiet remarkable that many can miss such a important clue. So much written history we have on these events, of the destruction of Jerusalem her first & second temple, there where always prisoners captive taken from the land.

Here we can see clearly God Almighty aways, always, protects his people. "Come out of her my people" safe and sound.

Not as prisoners captive to other countries, as written in our historic records of Jerusalem and Her destruction. Mystery Babylon the Great and all her habitation of devils, and foul spirit (the wicked) will burn in fire, for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

I trully hope this will help clear things up on the mystery, God bless you all in Jesus mighty name :)
Sounds like it was good advise to get out before that happened then, doesn't it?
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
I see that as a nitpicking of words - If Jesus did not die at "Jerusalem" then his words here are false:

(Luke 13:32 KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

(Luke 13:33 KJV) Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

(Luke 13:34 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
there are actually several important prophets in the bible who died outside of jerusalem...moses for one...so evidently jesus did not intend to make a literal statement about where all prophets must die...

also it is crucial to note that revelation blames babylon for much more than just killing the prophets...revelation says that babylon contained the blood of the prophets and the saints and all who have ever been slain on the earth...

this is clearly more than just some earthly city...
 
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Larry_Stotle

Guest
there are actually several important prophets in the bible who died outside of jerusalem...moses for one...so evidently jesus did not intend to make a literal statement about where all prophets must die...

also it is crucial to note that revelation blames babylon for much more than just killing the prophets...revelation says that babylon contained the blood of the prophets and the saints and all who have ever been slain on the earth...

this is clearly more than just some earthly city...
Yes it's more than just some city it is also generation living in the time of Jesus.

(Mat 23:35 KJV) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

(Mat 23:36 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

(Mat 16:28 KJV) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Do you think those "standing here" are still alive, do you think they will be resurrected so they can witness the above.

Playing hanky panky with the straight forward words of scripture is a mark of futurist "theology" - they can't define the whor.e as 1st century Israel.


They put the wrong whor.e in
They take right whor.e out
They do the hanky panky and
They shake it all about

:)

 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Yes it's more than just some city it is also generation living in the time of Jesus.

(Mat 23:35 KJV) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

(Mat 23:36 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

(Mat 16:28 KJV) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Do you think those "standing here" are still alive, do you think they will be resurrected so they can witness the above.

Playing hanky panky with the straight forward words of scripture is a mark of futurist "theology" - they can't define the whor.e as 1st century Israel.


They put the wrong whor.e in
They take right whor.e out
They do the hanky panky and
They shake it all about

:)

babylon is more than just one generation...there has been bloodshed in -every- generation...mystery babylon spans all generations...

notice the important difference between matthew 23:35 and revelation 18:24...matthew 23:35 refers to all the -righteous- blood shed on the earth...while revelation 18:24 refers to all who have been slain on the earth...that is both the righteous and the unrighteous...

but preterists seem to prefer lots of hand waving generalizations instead of this kind of attention to detail...

regarding matthew 16:28...jesus' kingdom is his church...the body of believers who he rules over as the head... jesus' kingdom came at pentecost...when the holy pneuma or ruach filled the body of the church as the breath of life fills a human body...and 'brought it to life' so to speak... it is clarified that pentecost is what jesus was talking about based on the parallel passage in mark 9:1...in that verse jesus mentions that those standing there will see the kingdom of God come -with power-...and then turning to acts 1:8 you can see that jesus told the disciples that they would receive power when the holy spirit comes upon them...and then they will be his witnesses all over the world...that is they will be expanding his kingdom...

so that particular prophecy was fulfilled even before AD 70...

now someone who calls it 'nitpicking' to point out that scripture plainly states that jesus did -not- die in jerusalem is in no position to lecture anyone about 'playing hanky panky with the straight forward words of scripture'

by the way...i am not a futurist :)
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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there are actually several important prophets in the bible who died outside of jerusalem...moses for one...so evidently jesus did not intend to make a literal statement about where all prophets must die...

also it is crucial to note that revelation blames babylon for much more than just killing the prophets...revelation says that babylon contained the blood of the prophets and the saints and all who have ever been slain on the earth...

this is clearly more than just some earthly city...
If you read the old testament, then you already know that God repeatedly calls Israel, " Egypt", Why, because they had been in Egypt and were acting like Egyptians. In Revelation, He calls them Babylon, because they had been in Babylon and were acting like Babylonians. Read slower. Pray. Think.

The read slower was not an insult. I am serious, take your time....it is quite clear. The whore of Revelation is Jerusalem and the Beast that she rides on is the nation of Israel. In the old testament God repeatedly calls Israel/Judah a whore as well.

Isaiah 1:21 [ Zion Corrupted, to Be Redeemed ] How the faithful city has become a harlot, She who was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her, But now murderers.

3 God says, “If a husband divorces his wife
And she goes from him
And belongs to another man,
Will he still return to her?
Will not that land be completely polluted?
But you are a harlot with many lovers;
Yet you turn to Me,” declares the Lord.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“Lift up your eyes to the bare heights and see;
Where have you not been violated?
By the roads you have sat for them
Like an Arab in the desert,
And you have polluted a land
With your harlotry and with your wickedness.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“Therefore the showers have been withheld,
And there has been no spring rain.
Yet you had a harlot’s forehead;
You refused to be ashamed.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Have you not just now called to Me,
‘My Father, You are the friend of my youth?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]‘Will He be angry forever?
Will He be indignant to the end?’
Behold, you have spoken
And have done evil things,
And you have had your way.”[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, “Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. [SUP]7 [/SUP]I thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Because of the lightness of her harlotry, she polluted the land and committed adultery with stones and trees.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet in spite of all this her treacherous sister Judah did not return to Me with all her heart, but rather in deception,” declares the Lord.



Ez 16
16 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, [SUP]2 [/SUP]“Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations [SUP]3 [/SUP]and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God to Jerusalem, “Your origin and your birth are from the land of the Canaanite, your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. [SUP]4 [/SUP]As for your birth, on the day you were born your navel cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water for cleansing; you were not rubbed with salt or even wrapped in cloths. [SUP]5 [/SUP]No eye looked with pity on you to do any of these things for you, to have compassion on you. Rather you were thrown out into the open field, for you were abhorred on the day you were born.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“When I passed by you and saw you squirming in your blood, I said to you while you were in your blood, ‘Live!’ Yes, I said to you while you were in your blood, ‘Live!’ [SUP]7 [/SUP]I made you numerous like plants of the field. Then you grew up, became tall and reached the age for fine ornaments; your breasts were formed and your hair had grown. Yet you were naked and bare.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“Then I passed by you and saw you, and behold, you were at the time for love; so I spread My skirt over you and covered your nakedness. I also swore to you and entered into a covenant with you so that you became Mine,” declares the Lord God. [SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then I bathed you with water, washed off your blood from you and anointed you with oil. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I also clothed you with embroidered cloth and put sandals of porpoise skin on your feet; and I wrapped you with fine linen and covered you with silk. [SUP]11 [/SUP]I adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your hands and a necklace around your neck. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I also put a ring in your nostril, earrings in your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your dress was of fine linen, silk and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour, honey and oil; so you were exceedingly beautiful and advanced to royalty. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then your fame went forth among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect because of My splendor which I bestowed on you,” declares the Lord God.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“But you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot because of your fame, and you poured out your harlotries on every passer-by who might be willing. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You took some of your clothes, made for yourself high places of various colors and played the harlot on them, which should never come about nor happen. [SUP]17 [/SUP]You also took your beautiful jewels made of My gold and of My silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself male images that you might play the harlot with them. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then you took your embroidered cloth and covered them, and offered My oil and My incense before them. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Also My bread which I gave you, fine flour, oil and honey with which I fed you, you would offer before them for a soothing aroma; so it happened,” declares the Lord God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]“Moreover, you took your sons and daughters whom you had borne to Me and sacrificed them to idols to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter? [SUP]21 [/SUP]You slaughtered My children and offered them up to idols by causing them to pass through the fire. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Besides all your abominations and harlotries you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare and squirming in your blood.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then it came about after all your wickedness (‘Woe, woe to you!’ declares the Lord God), [SUP]24 [/SUP]that you built yourself a shrine and made yourself a high place in every square. [SUP]25[/SUP]You built yourself a high place at the top of every street and made your beauty abominable, and you spread your legs to every passer-by to multiply your harlotry. [SUP]26 [/SUP]You also played the harlot with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, and multiplied your harlotry to make Me angry. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Behold now, I have stretched out My hand against you and diminished your rations. And I delivered you up to the desire of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who are ashamed of your lewd conduct. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Moreover, you played the harlot with the Assyrians because you were not satisfied; you played the harlot with them and still were not satisfied. [SUP]29 [/SUP]You also multiplied your harlotry with the land of merchants, Chaldea, yet even with this you were not satisfied.”’”
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“How languishing is your heart,” declares the Lord God, “while you do all these things, the actions of a bold-faced harlot. [SUP]31 [/SUP]When you built your shrine at the beginning of every street and made your high place in every square, in disdaining money, you were not like a harlot. [SUP]32 [/SUP]You adulteress wife, who takes strangers instead of her husband! [SUP]33 [/SUP]Men give gifts to all harlots, but you give your gifts to all your lovers to bribe them to come to you from every direction for your harlotries. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Thus you are different from those women in your harlotries, in that no one plays the harlot as you do, because you give money and no money is given you; thus you are different.”
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Therefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord God, “Because your lewdness was poured out and your nakedness uncovered through your harlotries with your lovers and with all your detestable idols, and because of the blood of your sons which you gave to idols, [SUP]37 [/SUP]therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, even all those whom you loved and all those whom you hated. So I will gather them against you from every direction and expose your nakedness to them that they may see all your nakedness. [SUP]38 [/SUP]Thus I will judge you like women who commit adultery or shed blood are judged; and I will bring on you the blood of wrath and jealousy. [SUP]39 [/SUP]I will also give you into the hands of your lovers, and they will tear down your shrines, demolish your high places, strip you of your clothing, take away your jewels, and will leave you naked and bare. [SUP]40 [/SUP]They will incite a crowd against you and they will stone you and cut you to pieces with their swords. [SUP]41 [/SUP]They will burn your houses with fire and execute judgments on you in the sight of many women. Then I will stop you from playing the harlot, and you will also no longer pay your lovers. [SUP]42 [/SUP]So I will calm My fury against you and My jealousy will depart from you, and I will be pacified and angry no more. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Because you have not remembered the days of your youth but have enraged Me by all these things, behold, I in turn will bring your conduct down on your own head,” declares the Lord God, “so that you will not commit this lewdness on top of all your other abominations.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]“Behold, everyone who quotes proverbs will quote this proverb concerning you, saying, ‘Like mother, like daughter.’ [SUP]45 [/SUP]You are the daughter of your mother, who loathed her husband and children. You are also the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. [SUP]46 [/SUP]Now your older sister is Samaria, who lives north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lives south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. [SUP]47 [/SUP]Yet you have not merely walked in their ways or done according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you acted more corruptly in all your conduct than they. [SUP]48 [/SUP]As I live,” declares the Lord God, “Sodom, your sister and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. [SUP]49 [/SUP]Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. [SUP]50 [/SUP]Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Furthermore, Samaria did not commit half of your sins, for you have multiplied your abominations more than they. Thus you have made your sisters appear righteous by all your abominations which you have committed. [SUP]52 [/SUP]Also bear your disgrace in that you have made judgment favorable for your sisters. Because of your sins in which you acted more abominably than they, they are more in the right than you. Yes, be also ashamed and bear your disgrace, in that you made your sisters appear righteous.
[SUP]53 [/SUP]“Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity, [SUP]54 [/SUP]in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them. [SUP]55 [/SUP]Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state. [SUP]56 [/SUP]As the name of your sister Sodom was not heard from your lips in your day of pride, [SUP]57 [/SUP]before your wickedness was uncovered, so now you have become the reproach of the daughters of Edom and of all who are around her, of the daughters of the Philistines—those surrounding you who despise you. [SUP]58 [/SUP]You have borne the penalty of your lewdness and abominations,” the Lord declares. [SUP]59 [/SUP]For thus says the Lord God, “I will also do with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath by breaking the covenant.
[SUP]60 [/SUP]“Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. [SUP]61 [/SUP]Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both your older and your younger; and I will give them to you as daughters, but not because of your covenant. [SUP]62 [/SUP]Thus I will establish My covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the Lord, [SUP]63 [/SUP]so that you may remember and be ashamed and never open your mouth anymore because of your humiliation, when I have forgiven you for all that you have done,” the Lord God declares.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
here is some help about the significance of the 'all who have been slain on the earth' reference in revelation 18...

mystery babylon has to encompass -all- bloodshed that has ever taken place on the earth...from cain killing abel...all the way to the murders that take place today and beyond...

who is responsible for -all- bloodshed through all time?

john 8:44..."You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

the ultimate murderer of all time is satan himself... as a serpent he tempted eve and caused her and adam to sin...bringing death into the world in the first place... he worked through the sinful anger of cain and caused him to murder abel... he worked through the kings who murdered the prophets... he worked through the pharisees and romans who crucified jesus... he worked through the jews who stoned stephen... he worked through herod who executed james... he worked through the romans who executed paul and peter... he worked through hitler and stalin and mao and pol pot and all the others...

it is satan himself who has worked all the bloodshed on earth through all of history...and 'mystery babylon' is the name of satan's kingdom...the kingdom of 'the world'...

like God's kingdom in revelation 12...satan's kingdom is also represented by the image of a woman... like God's kingdom in hebrews 11-13...satan's kingdom is also represented by the symbol of a city...

both are spiritual kingdoms...and satan's kingdom represented by the 'city' of babylon is the spiritual opposite of God's kingdom or the church which is represented by the 'city' of new jerusalem...
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
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here is some help about the significance of the 'all who have been slain on the earth' reference in revelation 18...

mystery babylon has to encompass -all- bloodshed that has ever taken place on the earth...from cain killing abel...all the way to the murders that take place today and beyond...

who is responsible for -all- bloodshed through all time?

john 8:44..."You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

the ultimate murderer of all time is satan himself... as a serpent he tempted eve and caused her and adam to sin...bringing death into the world in the first place... he worked through the sinful anger of cain and caused him to murder abel... he worked through the kings who murdered the prophets... he worked through the pharisees and romans who crucified jesus... he worked through the jews who stoned stephen... he worked through herod who executed james... he worked through the romans who executed paul and peter... he worked through hitler and stalin and mao and pol pot and all the others...

it is satan himself who has worked all the bloodshed on earth through all of history...and 'mystery babylon' is the name of satan's kingdom...the kingdom of 'the world'...

like God's kingdom in revelation 12...satan's kingdom is also represented by the image of a woman... like God's kingdom in hebrews 11-13...satan's kingdom is also represented by the symbol of a city...

both are spiritual kingdoms...and satan's kingdom represented by the 'city' of babylon is the spiritual opposite of God's kingdom or the church which is represented by the 'city' of new jerusalem...
So you agree that the New Jerusalem is the church? Most people argue against that.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
17
38
here is some help about the significance of the 'all who have been slain on the earth' reference in revelation 18...

mystery babylon has to encompass -all- bloodshed that has ever taken place on the earth...from cain killing abel...all the way to the murders that take place today and beyond...

who is responsible for -all- bloodshed through all time?

john 8:44..."You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

the ultimate murderer of all time is satan himself... as a serpent he tempted eve and caused her and adam to sin...bringing death into the world in the first place... he worked through the sinful anger of cain and caused him to murder abel... he worked through the kings who murdered the prophets... he worked through the pharisees and romans who crucified jesus... he worked through the jews who stoned stephen... he worked through herod who executed james... he worked through the romans who executed paul and peter... he worked through hitler and stalin and mao and pol pot and all the others...

it is satan himself who has worked all the bloodshed on earth through all of history...and 'mystery babylon' is the name of satan's kingdom...the kingdom of 'the world'...

like God's kingdom in revelation 12...satan's kingdom is also represented by the image of a woman... like God's kingdom in hebrews 11-13...satan's kingdom is also represented by the symbol of a city...

both are spiritual kingdoms...and satan's kingdom represented by the 'city' of babylon is the spiritual opposite of God's kingdom or the church which is represented by the 'city' of new jerusalem...
I agree with the New Jerusalem being the Church, but I can not deny the fact that the Old Jerusalem was the harlot.
 
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Larry_Stotle

Guest
babylon is more than just one generation...there has been bloodshed in -every- generation...mystery babylon spans all generations...

notice the important difference between matthew 23:35 and revelation 18:24...matthew 23:35 refers to all the -righteous- blood shed on the earth...while revelation 18:24 refers to all who have been slain on the earth...that is both the righteous and the unrighteous...
(Rev 18:24 KJV) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

You are making a distinction where none exists - John is drawing on Jesus words, not inventing some new criteria for the judgment of the whor.e.

And you are trying to fit a covenant book that deals with apostate 1st century Israel's identity as an adulterer into some "entity" mystic Babylon that is not the object of the book.

Trying to pin the whor.es tail on the Roman Catholic church is bogus as they have never been guilty of killing the prophets as Jesus tells us it was O' Canada..:D

(Mat 23:37 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

(Mat 23:35 KJV) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

(Mat 23:36 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.


but preterists seem to prefer lots of hand waving generalizations instead of this kind of attention to detail...
Yet we don't ignore things like "this generation", "must shortly come to pass" but we do wave the "at hand" statements.

They put the wrong whor.e in...:rolleyes:
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
591
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the jerusalem babylon theory is dependent on babylon being the place 'where also our lord was crucified'...

...the problem is that jesus was -not- actually crucified in jerusalem!

hebrews 13:12..."Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate."
LOL Rachel, still peddling your twisted interpretation of Rev 11v8!

Rev 11v8 doesn't say that the Lord was curcified in or out of Jerusalem, simply "where also our Lord was crucified."

Even the heathen in the street knows that he was crucified "at" Jerusalem (and not Rome, or anywhere else), yet you profess to be a "BibleStudent" and yet you quite happily mangle and twist this Scripture so as to fit in with your own man-made unscriptural traditions!

Shame on you!


Do note James 3v1! :p
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
If you read the old testament, then you already know that God repeatedly calls Israel, " Egypt", Why, because they had been in Egypt and were acting like Egyptians. In Revelation, He calls them Babylon, because they had been in Babylon and were acting like Babylonians. Read slower. Pray. Think.

The read slower was not an insult. I am serious, take your time....it is quite clear. The whore of Revelation is Jerusalem and the Beast that she rides on is the nation of Israel. In the old testament God repeatedly calls Israel/Judah a whore as well.

Isaiah 1:21 [ Zion Corrupted, to Be Redeemed ] How the faithful city has become a harlot, She who was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her, But now murderers.

3 God says, “If a husband divorces his wife
And she goes from him
And belongs to another man,
Will he still return to her?
Will not that land be completely polluted?
But you are a harlot with many lovers;
Yet you turn to Me,” declares the Lord.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“Lift up your eyes to the bare heights and see;
Where have you not been violated?
By the roads you have sat for them
Like an Arab in the desert,
And you have polluted a land
With your harlotry and with your wickedness.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“Therefore the showers have been withheld,
And there has been no spring rain.
Yet you had a harlot’s forehead;
You refused to be ashamed.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Have you not just now called to Me,
‘My Father, You are the friend of my youth?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]‘Will He be angry forever?
Will He be indignant to the end?’
Behold, you have spoken
And have done evil things,
And you have had your way.”[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, “Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. [SUP]7 [/SUP]I thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Because of the lightness of her harlotry, she polluted the land and committed adultery with stones and trees.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet in spite of all this her treacherous sister Judah did not return to Me with all her heart, but rather in deception,” declares the Lord.



Ez 16
16 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, [SUP]2 [/SUP]“Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations [SUP]3 [/SUP]and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God to Jerusalem, “Your origin and your birth are from the land of the Canaanite, your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. [SUP]4 [/SUP]As for your birth, on the day you were born your navel cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water for cleansing; you were not rubbed with salt or even wrapped in cloths. [SUP]5 [/SUP]No eye looked with pity on you to do any of these things for you, to have compassion on you. Rather you were thrown out into the open field, for you were abhorred on the day you were born.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“When I passed by you and saw you squirming in your blood, I said to you while you were in your blood, ‘Live!’ Yes, I said to you while you were in your blood, ‘Live!’ [SUP]7 [/SUP]I made you numerous like plants of the field. Then you grew up, became tall and reached the age for fine ornaments; your breasts were formed and your hair had grown. Yet you were naked and bare.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“Then I passed by you and saw you, and behold, you were at the time for love; so I spread My skirt over you and covered your nakedness. I also swore to you and entered into a covenant with you so that you became Mine,” declares the Lord God. [SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then I bathed you with water, washed off your blood from you and anointed you with oil. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I also clothed you with embroidered cloth and put sandals of porpoise skin on your feet; and I wrapped you with fine linen and covered you with silk. [SUP]11 [/SUP]I adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your hands and a necklace around your neck. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I also put a ring in your nostril, earrings in your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your dress was of fine linen, silk and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour, honey and oil; so you were exceedingly beautiful and advanced to royalty. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then your fame went forth among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect because of My splendor which I bestowed on you,” declares the Lord God.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“But you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot because of your fame, and you poured out your harlotries on every passer-by who might be willing. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You took some of your clothes, made for yourself high places of various colors and played the harlot on them, which should never come about nor happen. [SUP]17 [/SUP]You also took your beautiful jewels made of My gold and of My silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself male images that you might play the harlot with them. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then you took your embroidered cloth and covered them, and offered My oil and My incense before them. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Also My bread which I gave you, fine flour, oil and honey with which I fed you, you would offer before them for a soothing aroma; so it happened,” declares the Lord God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]“Moreover, you took your sons and daughters whom you had borne to Me and sacrificed them to idols to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter? [SUP]21 [/SUP]You slaughtered My children and offered them up to idols by causing them to pass through the fire. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Besides all your abominations and harlotries you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare and squirming in your blood.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then it came about after all your wickedness (‘Woe, woe to you!’ declares the Lord God), [SUP]24 [/SUP]that you built yourself a shrine and made yourself a high place in every square. [SUP]25[/SUP]You built yourself a high place at the top of every street and made your beauty abominable, and you spread your legs to every passer-by to multiply your harlotry. [SUP]26 [/SUP]You also played the harlot with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, and multiplied your harlotry to make Me angry. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Behold now, I have stretched out My hand against you and diminished your rations. And I delivered you up to the desire of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who are ashamed of your lewd conduct. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Moreover, you played the harlot with the Assyrians because you were not satisfied; you played the harlot with them and still were not satisfied. [SUP]29 [/SUP]You also multiplied your harlotry with the land of merchants, Chaldea, yet even with this you were not satisfied.”’”
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“How languishing is your heart,” declares the Lord God, “while you do all these things, the actions of a bold-faced harlot. [SUP]31 [/SUP]When you built your shrine at the beginning of every street and made your high place in every square, in disdaining money, you were not like a harlot. [SUP]32 [/SUP]You adulteress wife, who takes strangers instead of her husband! [SUP]33 [/SUP]Men give gifts to all harlots, but you give your gifts to all your lovers to bribe them to come to you from every direction for your harlotries. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Thus you are different from those women in your harlotries, in that no one plays the harlot as you do, because you give money and no money is given you; thus you are different.”
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Therefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord God, “Because your lewdness was poured out and your nakedness uncovered through your harlotries with your lovers and with all your detestable idols, and because of the blood of your sons which you gave to idols, [SUP]37 [/SUP]therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, even all those whom you loved and all those whom you hated. So I will gather them against you from every direction and expose your nakedness to them that they may see all your nakedness. [SUP]38 [/SUP]Thus I will judge you like women who commit adultery or shed blood are judged; and I will bring on you the blood of wrath and jealousy. [SUP]39 [/SUP]I will also give you into the hands of your lovers, and they will tear down your shrines, demolish your high places, strip you of your clothing, take away your jewels, and will leave you naked and bare. [SUP]40 [/SUP]They will incite a crowd against you and they will stone you and cut you to pieces with their swords. [SUP]41 [/SUP]They will burn your houses with fire and execute judgments on you in the sight of many women. Then I will stop you from playing the harlot, and you will also no longer pay your lovers. [SUP]42 [/SUP]So I will calm My fury against you and My jealousy will depart from you, and I will be pacified and angry no more. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Because you have not remembered the days of your youth but have enraged Me by all these things, behold, I in turn will bring your conduct down on your own head,” declares the Lord God, “so that you will not commit this lewdness on top of all your other abominations.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]“Behold, everyone who quotes proverbs will quote this proverb concerning you, saying, ‘Like mother, like daughter.’ [SUP]45 [/SUP]You are the daughter of your mother, who loathed her husband and children. You are also the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. [SUP]46 [/SUP]Now your older sister is Samaria, who lives north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lives south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. [SUP]47 [/SUP]Yet you have not merely walked in their ways or done according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you acted more corruptly in all your conduct than they. [SUP]48 [/SUP]As I live,” declares the Lord God, “Sodom, your sister and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. [SUP]49 [/SUP]Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. [SUP]50 [/SUP]Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Furthermore, Samaria did not commit half of your sins, for you have multiplied your abominations more than they. Thus you have made your sisters appear righteous by all your abominations which you have committed. [SUP]52 [/SUP]Also bear your disgrace in that you have made judgment favorable for your sisters. Because of your sins in which you acted more abominably than they, they are more in the right than you. Yes, be also ashamed and bear your disgrace, in that you made your sisters appear righteous.
[SUP]53 [/SUP]“Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity, [SUP]54 [/SUP]in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them. [SUP]55 [/SUP]Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state. [SUP]56 [/SUP]As the name of your sister Sodom was not heard from your lips in your day of pride, [SUP]57 [/SUP]before your wickedness was uncovered, so now you have become the reproach of the daughters of Edom and of all who are around her, of the daughters of the Philistines—those surrounding you who despise you. [SUP]58 [/SUP]You have borne the penalty of your lewdness and abominations,” the Lord declares. [SUP]59 [/SUP]For thus says the Lord God, “I will also do with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath by breaking the covenant.
[SUP]60 [/SUP]“Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. [SUP]61 [/SUP]Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both your older and your younger; and I will give them to you as daughters, but not because of your covenant. [SUP]62 [/SUP]Thus I will establish My covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the Lord, [SUP]63 [/SUP]so that you may remember and be ashamed and never open your mouth anymore because of your humiliation, when I have forgiven you for all that you have done,” the Lord God declares.
this is usually the next resort of jerusalem babylon theorists...the flood of old testament quote mining... the irony is that for all the preterists' complaints about other eschatologies ignoring history...this old testament quote mining tends to pull old testament prophecies entirely out of their historical context...

isaiah 1 is not about jerusalem in AD 70...it is about judah in the eighth century BC...
jeremiah 3 is not about jerusalem in AD 70...it is about judah in the sixth century BC...
ezekiel 16 is not about jerusalem in AD 70...it is about judah in the sixth century BC...

to assume that because jerusalem was a harlot in the writings of isaiah and jeremiah and ezekiel then jerusalem must therefore be the harlot in revelation 700 years later is a huge stretch that completely ignores the historical context of these scriptures...

all preterists can ever pull up from the old testament is -already fulfilled prophecy-...it makes it look like preterists flip flop on the question of double fulfillments...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
I agree with the New Jerusalem being the Church, but I can not deny the fact that the Old Jerusalem was the harlot.
new jerusalem is a spiritual kingdom...and so is mystery babylon...
earthly jerusalem is not a spiritual anything...it is just an earthly city...
 
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Larry_Stotle

Guest
it says new jerusalem is the bride in revelation 21:9
It's more than that:

(1 Pet 2:5 KJV) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

(Heb 12:22 KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

(Eph 2:20 KJV) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

(Eph 2:21 KJV) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

So how does all of the above fitting into a futurist scenario?
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
(Rev 18:24 KJV) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

You are making a distinction where none exists - John is drawing on Jesus words, not inventing some new criteria for the judgment of the whor.e.

And you are trying to fit a covenant book that deals with apostate 1st century Israel's identity as an adulterer into some "entity" mystic Babylon that is not the object of the book.

Trying to pin the whor.es tail on the Roman Catholic church is bogus as they have never been guilty of killing the prophets as Jesus tells us it was O' Canada..:D

(Mat 23:37 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

(Mat 23:35 KJV) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

(Mat 23:36 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.




Yet we don't ignore things like "this generation", "must shortly come to pass" but we do wave the "at hand" statements.

They put the wrong whor.e in...:rolleyes:
actually i am making a distinction where scripture makes a distinction...if john had intended to quote jesus...he would have actually done so...instead they say two different things...and someone who pays attention to what scripture actually says instead of what they want it to say would recognize that this difference in the details means something...

preterists would prefer to just lazily gloss over the details and say 'close enough!'

your second objection is pure circular logic...you assume without evidence that revelation is a 'covenant book that deals with apostate first century israel's identity as an adulterer'...and then based on that assumption you say my understanding of mystery babylon is wrong...your argument boils down to 'israel is the harlot because israel is the harlot'

and i don't believe that mystery babylon is the roman catholic church...though the roman church may end up being part of it...it certainly has done its share of bloodshed and harlotry...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
LOL Rachel, still peddling your twisted interpretation of Rev 11v8!

Rev 11v8 doesn't say that the Lord was curcified in or out of Jerusalem, simply "where also our Lord was crucified."

Even the heathen in the street knows that he was crucified "at" Jerusalem (and not Rome, or anywhere else), yet you profess to be a "BibleStudent" and yet you quite happily mangle and twist this Scripture so as to fit in with your own man-made unscriptural traditions!

Shame on you!


Do note James 3v1! :p
this may come as a surprise to you but the 'heathen in the street' is very often -wrong- about what the bible says...

apparently you are no more scripturally literate than the 'heathen on the street'

the bible plainly says that jesus was not crucified in jerusalem...he was not crucified in -any- earthly city...

'where also our lord was crucified' reveals the spiritual truth that jesus was crucified in and by the kingdom of the world...something jesus hints at in luke 22:53 also...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
It's more than that:

(1 Pet 2:5 KJV) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

(Heb 12:22 KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

(Eph 2:20 KJV) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

(Eph 2:21 KJV) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

So how does all of the above fitting into a futurist scenario?
i don't know...maybe you should go ask a futurist :)

but you see that new jerusalem is a spiritual 'city'...well so is mystery babylon...new jerusalem's spiritual opposite...
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
there are actually several important prophets in the bible who died outside of jerusalem...moses for one...so evidently jesus did not intend to make a literal statement about where all prophets must die...

also it is crucial to note that revelation blames babylon for much more than just killing the prophets...revelation says that babylon contained the blood of the prophets and the saints and all who have ever been slain on the earth...

this is clearly more than just some earthly city...
amen,

we also can just look at the name.

One name given is the "mother of harlots"

Jerusalem, or Israel proper. has never been the mother.

The mother is the creator of the harlot system. Israel committed harlotry with other Gods. but she was never the mother who created them.

If one remember, At mount siniah they played the harlot with the Egyptian Gods. In other times, they played the harlot with Baal. Who was a cannanite God.

In nither case was she the "mother of harlots"