Jesus AND the Bible came into time as a SEED - by G. John Rov
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CS1, I simply gave you the Scripture which clearly states that Jesus as the Son of Man went through a process of growth and perfection. As God, He already was perfect and all knowing. We both should already understand that. And yet though, at the same time, Jesus as the Son of Man, He grew and was perfected and learned obedience through the things which He suffered. We understand that Jesus as God already knew all things, and yet as a Man, He learned and He grew through a process of time in his life here on this earth. Oh how great is the mystery of Godliness! How great is the mystery of the Hypostatic Union (Dual Nature) of Christ our Lord!
The son of Man means and speak to Jesus being fully human. in that, we are in agreement.
saying HE grew and was made perfect over time, is not correct. HE was not born of the will of fallen man, He did not have the fallen sin nature which is a type of imperfection. The only area Jesu was limited in was HE flesh because HE willfully gave up HIS Omni-presence when taking ON THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL MAN.
What he suffered means he was complete in all HE needed to do for us " He who knew no sin, became sin for us."
saying HE grew and was made perfect over time, is not correct. HE was not born of the will of fallen man, He did not have the fallen sin nature which is a type of imperfection. The only area Jesu was limited in was HE flesh because HE willfully gave up HIS Omni-presence when taking ON THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL MAN.
What he suffered means he was complete in all HE needed to do for us " He who knew no sin, became sin for us."
CS1, the holy Scripture tells us that Jesus as a human and man, did grow:
Luke 2:39-52 King James Bible
And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. {40} And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. {41} Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. {42} And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. {43} And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. {44} But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day’s journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. {45} And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. {46} And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. {47} And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. {48} And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. {49} And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business? {50} And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. {51} And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. {52} And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
And so what I had stated concerning Jesus in His humanity was not incorrect. But it is Scriptural. Yes, we both know that Jesus did not have a sin nature and that he knew no sin.
Jesus Christ was and is pure, blameless and without sin.
And the Scripture says that He grew (Luke 2:40) and was made perfect (Hebrews 5:9) in His humanity. Yet, Jesus as God, He still possessed all of His divine attributes, such as Omniscience (Matthew 9:4), Omnipresence (John 3:13), and Omnipotence (Mark 2:10; Luke 4:36; Matthew 28:18)
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nothing in your text says Jesus became perfect over time.
The truth recorded states otherwise. in Context to Jesus we see in the passages you used said about:
You are mistaken.
The truth recorded states otherwise. in Context to Jesus we see in the passages you used said about:
- grew, and waxed strong in spirit,
- filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
- sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. {47} And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. {48} And when they saw him, they were amazed:
- And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
You are mistaken.
CS1, no I am not mistaken.
I clearly provided you with Scripture that teaches that Jesus did become perfect in time, that is, in terms of His humanity.
He grew over time, and He developed, and he learned obedience through the things which He suffered (Heb. 5:8). This all is true. Jesus as a man and human, went through the very same process that you and I go through, growth and development. And yet the only difference is that Jesus was and is without sin. Jesus as a man did not have a sin nature. Now you and I do, CS1. But Jesus did not have a sin nature, and He did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth (1 Peter 2:22).
We must understand the two natures of Christ. Both Human and Divine. Both God and Man. Just as the Blessed Holy Scripture is both human and divine. The Holy Bible is the Divine-Human Book.
CS1, once again, this is where we must take into consideration, the hypostatic union ( dual nature) of Jesus Christ. We understand that as God, He fully possessed all Divine attributes: Omnipresence, Omnipotence and omniscience, Eternality. And yet, in Jesus' human nature, there were limitations. Like getting tired, needing rest, experiencing hunger and thirst and so forth. And in Luke 2:51-52, we find that Christ Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature (in that he grew into manhood, as a human). Once again, therefore Luke 2:51-52 is further proof that as a Human and Man, Jesus learned and grew and went through the very process of growth as we all go through in our humanity. Because think about it, how does one increase in wisdom if He already possesses all wisdom?
Simple. Jesus as God already possessed all wisdom. And yet, in His humanity as a Man, He chose to go through the process of growth and learning.
Contradiction?? Of course not. There is no contradiction in what I just stated.
For Jesus was both 100% God and 100% Man at the same time while on earth. And He still possesses this Hypostatic union nature even to this day.
Furthermore, I believe that Jesus in His Humanity increased in wisdom by His intense study of the Holy Scriptures, so much so, that by the time He was only 12, He knew enough about the Scriptures to where He could contend with the Doctors of the Law (Scriptures, Torah, Mosaic Law).
Why must I accept a theological concept about hypostatic the nature of Christ? Is this edifying to have this knowledge? Is it essential for salvation? Now let agree with your point for a moment and let's say the child Jesus 5 years old from his understanding of brain that is not fully developed due to his adolescences. disobeyed his mother out of ignorance and thus dishonoring his mother breaking one of God commandments.
But after learning the law did not do it anymore. Did Jesus sin? If your answer is yes, Jesus was not perfect. If the answer is no then your point is irrelevant.
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I stated this already before, Jesus' growth in His human nature was just like ours with this one Major EXCEPTION. And that is, He was without sin. He is without sin, and always will be without sin. We all have sinned. But Jesus Never sinned. The Scripture states very clearly that Jesus knew no sin. And guile was not found in His mouth.
Concerning your question regarding the concept of the hypostatic union which Christ possessed. I believe it is crucial that any serious student of Holy Scripture learns this very concept, because it removes the confusion which all the cults like Mormons, false Jehovah's witnesses, and others have.
I disagree that those who do not know or care to know are not serious students of the Holy Scriptures. That is an opinion. I have seen many come out of Mormonism and JW's. The doctrine of the hypostatic union was not used. This God-breathed knowledge comes from the Holy Spirit once Christ opens the understanding of the scriptures as Luke 24:45-48
45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, [l] and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city [m] of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
The last words Jesus said to the Disciples is found in Acts 1:8
45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, [l] and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city [m] of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
The last words Jesus said to the Disciples is found in Acts 1:8
CS1, I understand if you choose to disagree with what I had stated concerning the knowledge about the Hypostatic union. But it is the very doctrine of the Hypostatic Union which helps us to understand how Jesus could maintain all His qualities and attributes of Deity and as God, while also allowing Himself to experience the very limitations which you and I experience as humans: Such as having to eat, having to drink water, having to sleep, being tired, having to move from one place to another, and so forth.
It should be very clear that Scripture tells us that God does not sleep nor slumber (Psalm 121:3-4).
Also God never gets hungry, nor thirsty. And yet, Jesus as a human Man, as the Son of Man, He had experienced all of those things.
The only people who have an issue with Jesus and His ability to be fully man and God are those mostly do not agree Jesus is God to begin with.
Again the suggestion that Jesus became perfect over time as you have said is not Biblical. IF you would have said, Jesus completed things as he grew I could see that but you did not. Rember coming in the likeness of sinful man is not the same as a sinful man.
IN that Body Jesus walks on water, in the Body Jesus chased out the money changers from the temple. In that body, Jesus Cooked fish and eat. In that Body, he asked women to give him water to drink. In that body, he fasted 40 days. In that body, he suffered the Cross. In that Body, HE rose again and IN that same Glorified Body HE is coming back.
Again the suggestion that Jesus became perfect over time as you have said is not Biblical. IF you would have said, Jesus completed things as he grew I could see that but you did not. Rember coming in the likeness of sinful man is not the same as a sinful man.
IN that Body Jesus walks on water, in the Body Jesus chased out the money changers from the temple. In that body, Jesus Cooked fish and eat. In that Body, he asked women to give him water to drink. In that body, he fasted 40 days. In that body, he suffered the Cross. In that Body, HE rose again and IN that same Glorified Body HE is coming back.
Cs1, I simply gave you the Scripture which teaches that Jesus was made perfect, and that He learned obedience through the things which He suffered. He learned as a Man and He grew and was perfected as a Man. At the same time, He was always without sin. He never sinned and there was no guile in His mouth. He never transgressed. For He was and is and will always be without sin. Hallelujah!
And as God, He already was all knowing, all powerful and all seeing, even while He was on earth. He was 100% God and 100% Man.
And as God, He already was all knowing, all powerful and all seeing, even while He was on earth. He was 100% God and 100% Man.
What are you disagreeing with, Blade?
Jesus has always been God. in Eternity Past, He was known as the Word. Jesus was a human name given unto Him at His Incarnation and conception in time.
The Bible also has always been In existence. Since the Bible and Jesus are One. Where Jesus is, His word must be also. The Bible came into time as well. While Jesus came from Eternity into time through conception. Likewise, the Holy Bible (The Scripture) came also from Eternity into time through Inspiration.
I believe Jesus is eternal, but i do not believe the word of God is eternal, it had a beginning, there is no end, Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away. It means that core teaching is law and order will be in our lives possibly, even when we get to heaven, but the bible had a beginning. If it existed in the pass then Abraham would have known about Moses through scripture, Enoch would have known about Joseph, etc.
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Hello there Prycejosh, thank you for commenting, and for sharing your view concerning this matter. I like having civil discussions with other Christians concerning important doctrinal subjects, like this one.
Let me explain to you why I believe that the word of God (Scripture) is Eternal, that it has always existed. I believe from the testimony given in Scripture about itself, its very nature and attributes, I am more than convinced that the Scripture and Jesus are One in Unity and that they are One in all things. Hence, because Jesus Christ and His word are One, that would mean that the Scripture also possesses the very same attributes and divine essence and nature which Jesus Christ (God Almighty) possesses. Since Jesus Christ has always existed, His word also must have always existed.
Now Prycejosh, you stated that if the Scripture existed in the past (I am sure you are referring to Eternity Past), then during Abraham’s time, he would have known about Moses through Scripture.
And my response to that point of yours is that before any Scripture was ever written down, it was FIRST Spoken. Which is why in 2 Peter 1:21, we read the following (Bold Emphasis Mine):
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Notice that Peter did not say that they wrote as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, but rather, they Spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Now we obviously know that they did also write the Scriptures down. All the different human authors which God used in a mighty way and moved to write down His holy Scriptures, all first spake the Holy Scripture before they actually wrote it down.
And so even though the Scripture was not in written form yet during the time of Adam, Noah, and Abraham, still though, the Holy Scripture already existed in its Divine nature and spiritual form. It simply had not been written down yet.
The Holy Spirit moved the holy men, and they spoke. There is no indication of the Holy Spirit having moved them in eternity past. Your view simply doesn't hold water.
Not in every case, and because it's not true in every case, your position is refuted. Paul, Luke, John, and probably David wrote the Scripture attributed to them; they did not primarily speak it.
You haven't established that. You've merely repeated it.
Not in every case, and because it's not true in every case, your position is refuted. Paul, Luke, John, and probably David wrote the Scripture attributed to them; they did not primarily speak it.
You haven't established that. You've merely repeated it.