Jesus Before His Incarnation

[Magenta]

Why? Do the moderators here bann anyone who proves that the teaching of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine are false.

Quite the contrary, and in fact, there are a number of threads that speak against the heresies of the Roman catholic church, and one of them was started by the owner of this site But that is not all you are promoting, to say that Jesus had a biological father. That is quite outside the bounds of accepted Christian beliefs. Do you deny the Deity of Christ?

 

[MattforJesus]

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,God and man in harmony.

The Bible says the Ruler in Israel to come will be from everlasting,having no beginning,and shall be called the mighty God,the everlasting Father,and Jesus dwells in the light whom no person can approach unto,and no person has ever seen Jesus,and no person will ever see Jesus.

The Son was made of a woman,made under the law,made according to the flesh.

Jesus is God who has no beginning,and man who has a beginning.

That is Jesus,God,and a human born of a woman,conceived by the Holy Spirit.

This is a permanent manifestation of God to the saints for ever,for the throne in heaven is the throne of God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

Without the incarnation it would not be Jesus,but a visible manifestation of God,for Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.

God appeared to Abraham in flesh twice,once when He visited Abraham to tell him about him having a child in his old age,and to converse about Sodom and Gomorrah,and once as Melchizedek,king of Salem,who was without natural descent,without father,or mother,having neither beginning of days,or end of life.

But this is a manifestation of God made from the dust of the earth,and when God was done using that body it went back to dust,so this was not Jesus,but a visible manifestion of God,for Jesus includes the man Christ Jesus made of a woman,and not a body made from the dust of the earth.

Without the man Christ Jesus made of a woman,it is not Jesus,but a visible manifestation of God.

Jesus is a name for God,that is the distinction,which was known in the New Testament,but the name was not revealed in the Old Testament,but the name Jehovah.

The name Jesus is for the benefit of people,for God's name reveals His character,and blessings towards people,which Jehovah in the Old Testament to represent physical deliverance,and Jesus in the New Testament to represent spiritual deliverance.

Without the creation of people,the name Jesus would not apply to God,for it is only given to people to represent God's character towards people,so before God created people He did not have the name Jesus,for it is only given to people for their benefit,but does not represent God in the totality of His character,for we can never know that,for we cannot know all God knows,and cannot do all God can do.

Jesus is God that has no beginning,but before the creation of people,He did not have the name Jesus,for it is only given to people,and Jesus has a name that no man knows but only Him,for this reveals His character that people cannot know.

God in a visible manifestation in the Old Testament is not Jesus,for that name could not be revealed until the right time,and Jesus includes the man Christ Jesus,who was not born yet.

Jesus who is God,was Jehovah in the Old Testament,and Jesus in the New Testament.

God is God,and it is a name given to people,and not God's name apart from people,before they were created.

God the Father said in the Old Testament,He would reveal a new name to the Jews,and speak to them,which Jesus said if you have seen Me you have seen the Father,and the words I speak are not my own,but the Father that dwells in Me,He does the works.

Jesus said He came in His Father's name.

The Son inherited the name from the Father.

The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,for the benefit of mankind,but not the name of God,before the creation of mankind.

In the Old Testament it is a visible manifestation of God,but not Jesus,for He is God,and a man born of a woman,and not a body made from the dust of the earth,for to take away the humanity of Jesus,would not be complete Jesus,and the name would not apply to mankind for a blessing,and a body made of the dust of the earth,a visible manifestation of God in the Old Testament is not a human with a human will,but a body God used,and then it went back to dust.

Jesus is fully human,for He has to be in order for Him to be the Savior of the world,for only by a sinless man can we be saved,who can reconcile us to God,and be our Mediator.

 

[S-word]

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,God and man in harmony.

The Bible says the Ruler in Israel to come will be from everlasting,having no beginning,and shall be called the mighty God,the everlasting Father,and Jesus dwells in the light whom no person can approach unto,and no person has ever seen Jesus,and no person will ever see Jesus.

The Son was made of a woman,made under the law,made according to the flesh.

Jesus is God who has no beginning,and man who has a beginning.

That is Jesus,God,and a human born of a woman,conceived by the Holy Spirit.

This is a permanent manifestation of God to the saints for ever,for the throne in heaven is the throne of God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

Without the incarnation it would not be Jesus,but a visible manifestation of God,for Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.

God appeared to Abraham in flesh twice,once when He visited Abraham to tell him about him having a child in his old age,and to converse about Sodom and Gomorrah,and once as Melchizedek,king of Salem,who was without natural descent,without father,or mother,having neither beginning of days,or end of life.

But this is a manifestation of God made from the dust of the earth,and when God was done using that body it went back to dust,so this was not Jesus,but a visible manifestion of God,for Jesus includes the man Christ Jesus made of a woman,and not a body made from the dust of the earth.

Without the man Christ Jesus made of a woman,it is not Jesus,but a visible manifestation of God.

Jesus is a name for God,that is the distinction,which was known in the New Testament,but the name was not revealed in the Old Testament,but the name Jehovah.

The name Jesus is for the benefit of people,for God's name reveals His character,and blessings towards people,which Jehovah in the Old Testament to represent physical deliverance,and Jesus in the New Testament to represent spiritual deliverance.

Without the creation of people,the name Jesus would not apply to God,for it is only given to people to represent God's character towards people,so before God created people He did not have the name Jesus,for it is only given to people for their benefit,but does not represent God in the totality of His character,for we can never know that,for we cannot know all God knows,and cannot do all God can do.

Jesus is God that has no beginning,but before the creation of people,He did not have the name Jesus,for it is only given to people,and Jesus has a name that no man knows but only Him,for this reveals His character that people cannot know.

God in a visible manifestation in the Old Testament is not Jesus,for that name could not be revealed until the right time,and Jesus includes the man Christ Jesus,who was not born yet.

Jesus who is God,was Jehovah in the Old Testament,and Jesus in the New Testament.

God is God,and it is a name given to people,and not God's name apart from people,before they were created.

God the Father said in the Old Testament,He would reveal a new name to the Jews,and speak to them,which Jesus said if you have seen Me you have seen the Father,and the words I speak are not my own,but the Father that dwells in Me,He does the works.

Jesus said He came in His Father's name.

The Son inherited the name from the Father.

The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,for the benefit of mankind,but not the name of God,before the creation of mankind.

In the Old Testament it is a visible manifestation of God,but not Jesus,for He is God,and a man born of a woman,and not a body made from the dust of the earth,for to take away the humanity of Jesus,would not be complete Jesus,and the name would not apply to mankind for a blessing,and a body made of the dust of the earth,a visible manifestation of God in the Old Testament is not a human with a human will,but a body God used,and then it went back to dust.

Jesus is fully human,for He has to be in order for Him to be the Savior of the world,for only by a sinless man can we be saved,who can reconcile us to God,and be our Mediator.

If as you say, the man Jesus is God, why did he say to Mary Magdalene in John 20: 17; "Go to my brothers and tell them that I am ascending to him, who is my Father and their Father, my God and their God?

Why is it said in Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus?

 

[jb]

Jesus Before His Incarnation.

You can find a couple of blogs Here and Here that you may find helpful...

 

[Enow]

Daniel 3:25 is a prime example of where only the KJV gets it right.

Daniel 3:[SUP]25 [/SUP]He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. KJV

 

[Enow]

Hebrews 11: 5; “By faith Enoch was translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him. That is biblical. ​

You are assuming translated mean to change from one form to another. Translated can just mean being removed which is why it added, was not found, BECAUSE God had translated him.

Hebrews 11:[SUP]5 [/SUP]By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

That is the meaning of translated; he was removed by God for why he was not found.

1[SUP]st[/SUP] Peter 1: 19-21; It was the costly sacrifice of Christ [The Anointed One] who was like a lamb without defect or flaw. He was chosen by God before the creation of this world and revealed in these last days for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from death and gave him glory; and so your hope and faith are fixed on God. That is biblical.

Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had taken him.That also is biblical.

365 is the number of days in a calendar year, the one year old lamb of God without defect or flaw.

But which world was Peter referring to? Was he referring to this world which is destined to burn or the previous world that was destroyed by water, as mentioned in 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Peter 3: 5-7. They purposely ignore the fact that long ago God gave a command, and the heavens and earth were created.The earth was formed out of water and by water, and it was also by water, the water of the flood, whereby that world was destroyed. But the heavens and earth [New World] that now exist are being preserved by the same command of God, in order to be destroyed by fire. This also is biblical.

He, who would later be reborn on earth and named ‘Jesus’ and who, before the old world was destroyed by water, had been carried to the very throne of the Most High and anointed as his successor and translated in order that he should never see death, was spoken of by Isaiah as the one that God chose to go to the people and speak to them in parables, in order that the minds of those people would be made dull, the ears deaf, ad their eyes blind, so that they could not see or hear or understand, etc

.

​

Enoch was not and is not Jesus Christ.

John 3:[SUP]13 [/SUP]And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 8:[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

So in no way Jesus Christ was Enoch.

Elijah was also removed.

I believe the two witnesses in Jerusalem during the great tribulation will be Enoch and Elijah; because,

1 Corinthians 15:50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So neither Enoch nor Elijah has ascended up to God's Heaven, but taken up to the earthly heavens or the upper atmosphere which I believe they are being translated through time to the near future.

We see that Philip was "translated" from one place to another in scripture.

Acts 8:[SUP]37 [/SUP]And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.[SUP] 38 [/SUP]And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.[SUP] 39 [/SUP]And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.[SUP]40 [/SUP]But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

So it is a reasonable theory that Enoch & Elijah are the two witnesses in Jerusalem for the great tribulation. It is a speculation, but a reasonable one based on scripture, but your belief that Enoch became Jesus Christ can be reproved by scripture as false.

 

[S-word]

Quite the contrary, and in fact, there are a number of threads that speak against the heresies of the Roman catholic church, and one of them was started by the owner of this site But that is not all you are promoting, to say that Jesus had a biological father. That is quite outside the bounds of accepted Christian beliefs. Do you deny the Deity of Christ?

No I do not deny the Deity of Jesus who was born of the flesh by the union of Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios, also called Heli, who was born son, heir and successor of our Lord, on the day of his baptism, when the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee."

Of who it is said in Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus." Jesus who now sits in our Fathers throne of Godhead to the creation and who, in Revelations 3: 21;, invites all those, who like himself, are able to win the victory as he has, to sit beside him in our Fathers heavenly throne.

 

[S-word]

You are assuming translated mean to change from one form to another. Translated can just mean being removed which is why it added, was not found, BECAUSE God had translated him.

Hebrews 11:[SUP]5 [/SUP]By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

That is the meaning of translated; he was removed by God for why he was not found.

Enoch was not and is not Jesus Christ.

John 3:[SUP]13 [/SUP]And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 8:[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

So in no way Jesus Christ was Enoch.

Elijah was also removed.

I believe the two witnesses in Jerusalem during the great tribulation will be Enoch and Elijah; because,

1 Corinthians 15:50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So neither Enoch nor Elijah has ascended up to God's Heaven, but taken up to the earthly heavens or the upper atmosphere which I believe they are being translated through time to the near future.

We see that Philip was "translated" from one place to another in scripture.

Acts 8:[SUP]37 [/SUP]And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.[SUP] 38 [/SUP]And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.[SUP] 39 [/SUP]And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.[SUP]40 [/SUP]But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

So it is a reasonable theory that Enoch & Elijah are the two witnesses in Jerusalem for the great tribulation. It is a speculation, but a reasonable one based on scripture, but your belief that Enoch became Jesus Christ can be reproved by scripture as false.
​

"The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord's face.

And the Most High, said to the glorious creatures that surrounded him, tempting them: "Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity," and the glorious creatures bowed down to the Lord, and said: "Let Enoch go [Or be released] according to Thy word." Enoch, was the first to be released.

The Great and glorious simulacrum which is the sacrifice that God has prepared for us, and of which Enoch was the chosen cornerstone, dies in the process of involution, to be the saviour of we in evolution, This he does by releasing all the righteous spirits that are He, from the least to the greatest, and Enoch the chosen cornerstone was the first. The stone that the builders of the Roman church have rejected has turned out to be the most important stone of all.

And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." [Enoch, the one who was anointed as the successor to the Godhead: CHRIST=The anointed one]

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun's rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

Enoch was translated from a body of corruptible matter into a body of brilliant light.

365, is the number of days in a calendar year. The Lamb of God who takes on the sins of the world is to be a one year old unblemished Lamb. Enoch the anointed one, is the unblemished Lamb of God.

Sandalphon is an archangel in Jewish and Christian writings. Sandalphon figures prominently in the mystical literary traditions of Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity, notably in the Midrash, Talmud, and Kabbalah.

Some of the earliest sources on Sandalphon refer to him as the prophet Elijah transfigured and elevated to angelic status. Other sources (mainly from the midrashic period) describe him as the "twin brother" of Metatron, whose human origin as Enoch was similar to the human origin of Sandalphon.

Sandalphron and Metatron are post human angels, Metatron is the name that was given to Enoch after he had been translated from a body of corruptible matter into a glorious body of incorruptible light, and Sandalphron, who is erroneously thought by some to be Metatron's twin, is in fact Elijah's angelic name after he was carried up to stand before Enoch and was also transfigured.

Metatron is also mentioned in the Pseudepigrapha, most prominently in the Hebrew Book of Enoch (also called Third Enoch), in which his grand title, "the lesser YHVH" resurfaces. It is also said that Metatron. The anointed one=CHRIST, was the angel who guided Israel through the wilderness.

Believe the corrupted cannon of the Roman church if you will, but myself I will continue to study the scriptures from which Jesus, his brother Jude and his apostles, all quoted.

The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, who appeared to Jesus/Enoch on the mountain. Elijah who shut up the heavens so that no rain fell for three years, and Moses who called down all the plagues on Egypt.

​

 

[Enow]

"The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord's face.

And the Most High, said to the glorious creatures that surrounded him, tempting them: "Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity," and the glorious creatures bowed down to the Lord, and said: "Let Enoch go [Or be released] according to Thy word." Enoch, was the first to be released.

The Great and glorious simulacrum which is the sacrifice that God has prepared for us, and of which Enoch was the chosen cornerstone, dies in the process of involution, to be the saviour of we in evolution, This he does by releasing all the righteous spirits that are He, from the least to the greatest, and Enoch the chosen cornerstone was the first. The stone that the builders of the Roman church have rejected has turned out to be the most important stone of all.

And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." [Enoch, the one who was anointed as the successor to the Godhead: CHRIST=The anointed one]

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun's rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

Enoch was translated from a body of corruptible matter into a body of brilliant light.

365, is the number of days in a calendar year. The Lamb of God who takes on the sins of the world is to be a one year old unblemished Lamb. Enoch the anointed one, is the unblemished Lamb of God.​

Well, I certainly can see where you got that "thinking" from which I had thought you had assumed as such, but you are still going outside the accepted scripture.

Sandalphon is an archangel in Jewish and Christian writings. Sandalphon figures prominently in the mystical literary traditions of Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity, notably in the Midrash, Talmud, and Kabbalah.

Some of the earliest sources on Sandalphon refer to him as the prophet Elijah transfigured and elevated to angelic status. Other sources (mainly from the midrashic period) describe him as the "twin brother" of Metatron, whose human origin as Enoch was similar to the human origin of Sandalphon.

Sandalphron and Metatron are post human angels, Metatron is the name that was given to Enoch after he had been translated from a body of corruptible matter into a glorious body of incorruptible light, and Sandalphron, who is erroneously thought by some to be Metatron's twin, is in fact Elijah's angelic name after he was carried up to stand before Enoch and was also transfigured.

Metatron is also mentioned in the Pseudepigrapha, most prominently in the Hebrew Book of Enoch (also called Third Enoch), in which his grand title, "the lesser YHVH" resurfaces. It is also said that Metatron. The anointed one=CHRIST, was the angel who guided Israel through the wilderness.

It is disturbing how you give credence to extra Biblical sources that in no way can be supported by the accepted scripture of the Bible.

Believe the corrupted cannon of the Roman church if you will, but myself I will continue to study the scriptures from which Jesus, his brother Jude and his apostles, all quoted.

There are way too many scripture debunking Romans Catholicism for your accusations to be even true. It is false as it is about King James being a homosexual and that he supposedly had changed the KJV Bible to hide his sins when scripture still remains in the KJV to reprove homosexuality as a sin and an abomination to the Lord.

The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, who appeared to Jesus/Enoch on the mountain. Elijah who shut up the heavens so that no rain fell for three years, and Moses who called down all the plagues on Egypt.

​

If you believe that Elijah is one of the two witnesses, then you have to reconsider your belief about Sandalphon, right?

Moses's body was buried outside of Israel.

Deuteronomy 34:6And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

I do not believe God will resurrect him just to die again in Jerusalem. I believe God will resurrect Moses at the pre trib rapture, but not to die again during the great tribulation.

Hebrews 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Why don't you go before that throne of grace and ask Jesus for help in discerning the lies as well as confirming His words to you than act like you came upon some "secret knowledge" as the gnostics have done in denying the deity of Christ?

 

[williamjordan]

If as you say, the man Jesus is God, why did he say to Mary Magdalene in John 20: 17; "Go to my brothers and tell them that I am ascending to him, who is my Father and their Father, my God and their God?

Why is it said in Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus?

It seems like you have missed probably one of the largest themes of the NT.

Jesus was, in the beginning, equal with God (John 1.1; Philippians 2.6), and in the incarnation He assumed the role of a servant (John 1.14, Philippians 2.7). It's interesting that the Book of Hebrews also speaks of Jesus in such a manner. According to the author, Jesus is He who the earth, and the heavens owe their existence (Hebrews 1.10–12), but then goes on to say that He was “for a little while made lower than the angels” (Hebrews 2.7) -- “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich” (2 Corinthians 8.9).

It is the orthodox understanding that in the incarnation Jesus divested Himself, and was “for a little while made lower than the angels” (Hebrews 2.7), “born of a woman, born under the law” (Galatians 4.4).

So when we read the word of Jesus, “Go to my brothers and tell them that I am ascending to him, who is my Father and their Father, my God and their God,” what else would you expect Him to say?

You do believe that Jesus was the perfect fulfiller of the entire Law, right? Which only further presses the point that Jesus is God in man.

 

[Enow]

If as you say, the man Jesus is God, why did he say to Mary Magdalene in John 20: 17; "Go to my brothers and tell them that I am ascending to him, who is my Father and their Father, my God and their God?

Since no man has ascended to Heaven yet, and Jesus is; then that is referring to His deity as God is His Father.

John 3:[SUP]13 [/SUP]And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 8:[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.[SUP]24 [/SUP]I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Why is it said in Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus?

If God will not give His glory to any other, and yet He is giving divine glory to Jesus, then Jesus is God.

Isaiah 42:[SUP]6 [/SUP]I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;[SUP]7 [/SUP]To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. [SUP]8 [/SUP]I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, ......

 

[Dino246]

No I do not deny the Deity of Jesus who was born of the flesh by the union of Mary and her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios, also called Heli, who was born son, heir and successor of our Lord, on the day of his baptism, when the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee."

Jesus was born of a virgin, not merely a young woman. Mary herself said in Luke 1:34, in response to the angel's statement that she would conceive, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" Your assertion that Jesus is the biological son of Joseph the son of Heli is unscriptural and false.

You also make far too many assumptions. At no point in this thread has anyone postulated either the immaculate conception of Mary nor of her perpetual virginity. Both ideas are also unscriptural and false.

Your Jesus is a supposedly-exalted man who can save nobody. If he were born of a human father, he would have inherited the sinful bloodline of Adam and would not have been an acceptable sacrifice for anyone's sin. All this stuff about Jesus being the reincarnated Enoch is hogwash from some scribe's addled imagination.

 

[graceNpeace]

Jesus was born of a virgin, not merely a young woman. Mary herself said in Luke 1:34, in response to the angel's statement that she would conceive, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" Your assertion that Jesus is the biological son of Joseph the son of Heli is unscriptural and false.

You also make far too many assumptions. At no point in this thread has anyone postulated either the immaculate conception of Mary nor of her perpetual virginity. Both ideas are also unscriptural and false.

Your Jesus is a supposedly-exalted man who can save nobody. If he were born of a human father, he would have inherited the sinful bloodline of Adam and would not have been an acceptable sacrifice for anyone's sin. All this stuff about Jesus being the reincarnated Enoch is hogwash from some scribe's addled imagination.

To emphasise:
Jesus Christ is NOT a deified man!

JESUS CHRIST IS GOD BECAUSE HE ALWAYS WAS GOD!
See John 1:1-2.

 

[NotmebutHim]

Jesus instituted Purim through the Jews of Esther's day. He saved His people from the wrath of Haman (and by extension finished what King Saul failed to finish).

 

[S-word]

Jesus was born of a virgin, not merely a young woman. Mary herself said in Luke 1:34, in response to the angel's statement that she would conceive, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" Your assertion that Jesus is the biological son of Joseph the son of Heli is unscriptural and false.

You also make far too many assumptions. At no point in this thread has anyone postulated either the immaculate conception of Mary nor of her perpetual virginity. Both ideas are also unscriptural and false.

Your Jesus is a supposedly-exalted man who can save nobody. If he were born of a human father, he would have inherited the sinful bloodline of Adam and would not have been an acceptable sacrifice for anyone's sin. All this stuff about Jesus being the reincarnated Enoch is hogwash from some scribe's addled imagination.

Dino246 wrote............ Jesus was born of a virgin, not merely a young woman

S-words response............ Not according to the words of the Lord through his prophet Isaiah, which states that an ‘ALMAH’who is pregnant will bear a son, etc. And according to Young’s Analytical Concordance to the bible, the Hebrew term ‘ALMAH,’ carries the meaning, [Concealment---unmarried Female.]

The New Revised Standard edition of the bible as with other more modern translations, have now rectified the erroneous KJV translation of Isaiah, and now read, “A young woman who is pregnant will bear a son, etc.

You see, the Hebrew language has a specific word for Virgin, which word is ‘BETHULAH,’the word that is used in every instance in the OT where a woman who has never had sexual intercourse is referred to, and the word that the Lord would have moved his prophet to use, if indeed he wanted to convey the message that a virgin would bear a son, which of course, He did not.

Unlike the Greek language, which had no specific word for virgin, Matthew and the Hebrew authors of the Septuagint were forced to use the Greek word, ’PARTHENOS’ when translating Isaiah’s prophecy, that an unmarried female would bear a son, etc, as there was no other word in the Greek Language for an unmarried person.

The Greek word ‘PARTHENOS,’carries the basic meaning of unmarried youth [Male or female] and denoted ‘VIRGIN’ only by implication. Any person who had never been married was a ‘PARTHENOS,’ irrelevant as to whether they were still a virgin or not.So Matthew 1: 22; should now read; “Now all this happened to fulfil what the Lord had said though his prophet [Isaiah] “Behold, an unmarried female shall conceive and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel, [God is with us.]The emphasis of the prophecy should be in the fact that a child that was born out of wedlock would be CHOSEN by the Lord as the one that he would fill with his spirit and send him into the world to speak in his name.​

 

[S-word]

Continued from post #35.

Dino246 wrote...........Mary herself said in Luke 1:34, in response to the angel's statement that she would conceive, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"

S-word’s response...........The young 14 year old ‘PARTHENOS,’ denotes that she was still a virgin when talking to the messenger of the Lord, who was Gabriel the angel of the Greeks , who told her that she would in the future conceive and bear a son, who would inherit the throne of his ancestor David, by saying; “How can this be as I have never known a man.”

This happen when her aged aunty Elizabeth was 6 month pregnant. And in those days Mary left her home town of Nazareth in Galilee and travelled to the home of her aunty in the hill county of Judah, were many family members and friends of the old woman Elizabeth were gathered to rejoice with her. It was there that Mary would have met for the first time Joseph the Levite from Cyprus, the son of her father Alexander Helios/Heli.

Three months later, after Elizabeth, the sister of her mother Hanna, had given birth to John the Baptist, Mary returned to Nazareth, pregnant with the child Jesus, who Luke says was the son of Joseph the son of Heli.

Dino246 wrote............Your assertion that Jesus is the biological son of Joseph the son of Heli is unscriptural and false.

S-word responds...............Then go and call, Luke who was inspired by the Lord to write what he wrote, a liar, because I am only quoting the words of the Lord as recorded by Luke, while ignoring the later interpolation [AS WAS SUPPOSED], which was not in the earlier manuscripts of Luke.

Dino246 Wrote..........You also make far too many assumptions. At no point in this thread has anyone postulated either the immaculate conception of Mary nor of her perpetual virginity. Both ideas are also unscriptural and false.

S-word Responds..............Perhaps not. But the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, teaches the immaculate conception of Mary and her perpetual virginity. as one of her so-called infallible truths. And it is the canon that was compiled by that church, that you seem to believe is also infallible.

Dino246 Wrote.............Your Jesus is a supposedly-exalted man who can save nobody. If he were born of a human father, he would have inherited the sinful bloodline of Adam and would not have been an acceptable sacrifice for anyone's sin.

S-word Responds..............Did not the angel Gabriel tell Mary that her son would inherit the throne of his genetic ancestor, ‘King David” who was a genetic seed of Adam?
​

Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into Hades to communicate with the gods.

After hanging on the cross, the body of Jesus was placed in a dark tomb, while the spirit that was He, as revealed in 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Peter 3: 19; descended and preached the Good News also to those imprisoned Spirits (The gods) who disobeyed God in the days when Noah was building the ark.

The human body begins the process of decomposition at the moment of death, after three days and three nights in the bowels of the earth, the body of Jesus, which should have been bloated and rotten if it were indeed dead, showed no sign that the death process of decomposition had not even begun.

It was not Jesus who ceased to be, on the cross, but the Lord God [The lesser JHWH] our saviour, who had filled Jesus with his spirit: And as the spirit departed from the body of Jesus, he cried out; “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?”It was then that the graves of all the spirits of all the righteous people, who had paid the blood price for their inherited sin and any mistakes that they had made while in the flesh, who had been judged and separated from the unrighteous dead and gathered to the living evolving spirit of Enoch in the bosom of Abraham, were opened and three days later, they came out of their graves and entered the holy city and showed themselves as the risen body of He, the anointed one, the Christ. Over these, death had no more power.

According to Peter, those who came out of their graves, now live in their spiritual existence as God lived, gathering to themselves the righteous spirits of their descendants.

When they have each gathered the required number of righteous spirits whose blood will be the ransom price for the CHOSEN earthly host body in which they can be reborn on earth, they, the resurrected body of the anointed one, over whom death has no power, will take the thrones that have been prepared for them and Rule as Kings with Jesus for a thousand years.

From the Book of Enoch the prophet 108: 11-13; “And now I will summons the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who, in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name (Who I Am,) and I will seat each one on the throne of his honour. And they shall be resplendent for times without number.” ​

 

[williamjordan]

Dino246 wrote............ Jesus was born of a virgin, not merely a young woman

S-words response............ Not according to the words of the Lord through his prophet Isaiah, which states that an ‘ALMAH’who is pregnant will bear a son, etc. And according to Young’s Analytical Concordance to the bible, the Hebrew term ‘ALMAH,’ carries the meaning, [Concealment---unmarried Female.]

The New Revised Standard edition of the bible as with other more modern translations, have now rectified the erroneous KJV translation of Isaiah, and now read, “A young woman who is pregnant will bear a son, etc.

You see, the Hebrew language has a specific word for Virgin, which word is ‘BETHULAH,’the word that is used in every instance in the OT where a woman who has never had sexual intercourse is referred to, and the word that the Lord would have moved his prophet to use, if indeed he wanted to convey the message that a virgin would bear a son, which of course, He did not.

Unlike the Greek language, which had no specific word for virgin, Matthew and the Hebrew authors of the Septuagint were forced to use the Greek word, ’PARTHENOS’ when translating Isaiah’s prophecy, that an unmarried female would bear a son, etc, as there was no other word in the Greek Language for an unmarried person.

The Greek word ‘PARTHENOS,’carries the basic meaning of unmarried youth [Male or female] and denoted ‘VIRGIN’ only by implication. Any person who had never been married was a ‘PARTHENOS,’ irrelevant as to whether they were still a virgin or not.So Matthew 1: 22; should now read; “Now all this happened to fulfil what the Lord had said though his prophet [Isaiah] “Behold, an unmarried female shall conceive and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel, [God is with us.]The emphasis of the prophecy should be in the fact that a child that was born out of wedlock would be CHOSEN by the Lord as the one that he would fill with his spirit and send him into the world to speak in his name.​

The Hebrew word almah may or may not demand to be translated as "virgin." The problem is, it is a very ambiguous term. The basic meaning is a woman ready to be married. Intertwined is the thought of purity. It is difficult to imagine that a young girl, who has not yet married, is somehow not a virgin. Had a child been conceived outside of wedlock, then it begs the question of adultery and the emphasis that the OT puts on it.

In Genesis 24.16-43, the author conflates three terms together na'arah ("girl"), betulah ("virgin"), and almah ("maiden") so that there really doesn't appear to be a semantic difference between the three. In fact, the LXX doesn't appear to differentiate between the three terms at all, using parthenos for each--na'arah, betulah, and almah.

You previously argued that Jesus is the biological son of Joseph. Yet, we have passages that speak in quite a different tone. Matthew 1.18-25 uses parthenos in citing Isaiah 7.14. But Matthew’s description of Jesus’ birth provides ample support for how he understands the OT text of Isaiah 7.14, and its application of parthenos. Matthew uses the euphemisms “before [Mary and Joseph] came together [sunerchomai] she was found to be with child” and “[Joseph] did not know [ginosko] her [Mary] until after she gave birth” to indicate that, both, Mary was a virgin, and that Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus. Additionally, the text twice clarifies that the pregnancy was “from the Holy Spirit” [ek pneumatos agiou].

The text in Luke 1.26-38 is similar in nature. The author speaks of Mary, using the Greek word parthenon, and further goes on to define exactly what he means through a euphemism (“And Mary said to the angel, 'How [is it possible that I will conceive], since I have not had sexual relations [ginosko] with a man?'), to which the angel responds, "nothing is impossible with God."

 

[mcubed]

He also appeared to Josiah as the Commander of the Lord's Army, Sammon's parents, and Gideon. Y-shua is G-d who came down in human form. Our Messiah is 100% G-d and 100% Man.

 

[S-word]

The Hebrew word almah may or may not demand to be translated as "virgin." The problem is, it is a very ambiguous term. The basic meaning is a woman ready to be married. Intertwined is the thought of purity. It is difficult to imagine that a young girl, who has not yet married, is somehow not a virgin. Had a child been conceived outside of wedlock, then it begs the question of adultery and the emphasis that the OT puts on it.

In Genesis 24.16-43, the author conflates three terms together na'arah ("girl"), betulah ("virgin"), and almah ("maiden") so that there really doesn't appear to be a semantic difference between the three. In fact, the LXX doesn't appear to differentiate between the three terms at all, using parthenos for each--na'arah, betulah, and almah.

You previously argued that Jesus is the biological son of Joseph. Yet, we have passages that speak in quite a different tone. Matthew 1.18-25 uses parthenos in citing Isaiah 7.14. But Matthew’s description of Jesus’ birth provides ample support for how he understands the OT text of Isaiah 7.14, and its application of parthenos. Matthew uses the euphemisms “before [Mary and Joseph] came together [sunerchomai] she was found to be with child” and “[Joseph] did not know [ginosko] her [Mary] until after she gave birth” to indicate that, both, Mary was a virgin, and that Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus. Additionally, the text twice clarifies that the pregnancy was “from the Holy Spirit” [ek pneumatos agiou].

The text in Luke 1.26-38 is similar in nature. The author speaks of Mary, using the Greek word parthenon, and further goes on to define exactly what he means through a euphemism (“And Mary said to the angel, 'How [is it possible that I will conceive], since I have not had sexual relations [ginosko] with a man?'), to which the angel responds, "nothing is impossible with God."

williamJordan wrote..........The Hebrew word almah may or may not demand to be translated as "virgin." The problem is, it is a very ambiguous term. The basic meaning is a woman ready to be married.

S-word Responds.........According to Young’s Analytical Concordance to the bible, the Hebrew term ‘ALMAH,’ carries the meaning, [Concealment---unmarried Female.If a woman who is known to have never had sexual relations with a man is being referred to, the specific term for ‘VIRGIN’ in the Hebrew language, which is ‘BETHULAH,’ is used. Which means that it was never the intention of the Lord to convey the message through his prophet Isaiah, that a virgin who is pregnant will bear as son, who would be called Emmanuel, as the Lord inspired his prophet to use the term ‘ALMAH,' which means an unmarried female.

The New Revised Standard edition of the bible as with other more modern translations, have rectified the erroneous KJV translation of Isaiah, and now read, “A young woman who is pregnant will bear a son, etc.”

WilliamJordan wrote.........In Genesis 24.16-43, the author conflates three terms together na'arah ("girl"), betulah ("virgin"), and almah ("maiden") so that there really doesn't appear to be a semantic difference between the three. In fact, the LXX doesn't appear to differentiate between the three terms at all, using parthenos for each--na'arah, betulah, and almah.

S-word Responds.......... In Genesis 24: 14, Abraham’s servant speaking in the first person, is referring to one of the young women from the city, he does not know who she is at that time, only that she would be a damsel, a young woman, or in the Hebrew language, [a na’arah.]In Genesis 24: 16; The author of the book of Genesis, [Not Abraham’s servant] but the AUTHOR, reveals that the young damsel was a ‘Bethulah,’a virgin, neither had any man known her.Then in Genesis 24: 43; Abraham’s servant, is recalling the events of that day to Laban, the brother of Rebekah the Almah, the young unmarried woman. Rebekah’s sexual status was not known by the servant of Abraham at that time that he was referring to, nor was the young unmarried woman’s sexual status being referred to.

WilliamJordan wrote.........Intertwined is the thought of purity. It is difficult to imagine that a young girl, who has not yet married, is somehow not a virgin.

S-word Responds.........If all the unmarried 16 year old young girls in the city of Sydney, who are still virgins, were to hold a convention, I believe that a telephone booth would be an adequate venue.

I don’t believe that too many people would have any difficulty in imagining that many young girls, who have not yet married, are no longer virgins.

Willian Jordan Wrote..........You previously argued that Jesus is the biological son of Joseph.

S-word Responds.........I was simply quoting the Holy Scriptures, which state in Luke 3: 23; that Jesus is the son of Joseph the son of Heli/Alexander Helios, who is not to be confused with Joseph the son of Jacob, who married the already pregnant Mary and had no sexual relations with her until after she had given birth to the first of her sons, ‘Jesus,’who was the son of Joseph ben Heli.

WilliamJordan Wrote.........Yet, we have passages that speak in quite a different tone. Matthew 1.18-25 uses parthenos in citing Isaiah 7.14. But Matthew’s description of Jesus’ birth provides ample support for how he understands the OT text of Isaiah 7.14, and its application of parthenos. Matthew uses the euphemisms “before [Mary and Joseph] came together [sunerchomai] she was found to be with child” and “[Joseph] did not know [ginosko] her [Mary] until after she gave birth” to indicate that, both, Mary was a virgin, and that Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus. Additionally, the text twice clarifies that the pregnancy was “from the Holy Spirit” [ek pneumatos agiou].

S-word Responds.........Unlike the Hebrew Language, which has a specific term for ‘VIRGIN,' which word is ‘BETHULAH,’The Greek Language does not. The Greek ‘PARTHENOS,' carries the meaning of unmarried Youth, [Male or Female] and denotes virgin only by implication.When Matthew and the Hebrew authors of the Septuagint translated Isaiah’s prophecy that an unmarried female, who was pregnant etc, into Greek, they were forccd to use the Greek ‘Parthenos,’ as there was no other word in that Language for a young unmarried woman, but anyone with half a brain, knows that Matthews statement in 1: 22, should read; ‘Now all this happened in order to make come true, what the Lord said through his prophet; “An unmarried female who is pregnant will bear a son, and he shall be called Emmanuel, meaning God is with us." Because we all know, that Isaiah never did say that a virgin who is pregnant, etc.

WilliamJordan Wrote...........The text in Luke 1.26-38 is similar in nature. The author speaks of Mary, using the Greek word parthenon, and further goes on to define exactly what he means through a euphemism (“And Mary said to the angel, 'How [is it possible that I will conceive], since I have not had sexual relations [ginosko] with a man?'), to which the angel responds, "nothing is impossible with God."

S-word Responds............The young [parthenos] unmarried Mary, denotes that she was a virgin, by saying that she had never had sexual relations with a man at the time when Gabriel ‘The angel of the Greeks’spoke to her .She later travelled from Nazareth in Galilee, to a town in the hill country of Judah, where many friends and members of the family were gathered to rejoice with the aged Elizabeth, the sister of Mary’s mother ‘Hanna.’It would have been there, that she met for the first time the father of Jesus, her half brother Joseph the son of her father, Alexander Helios/Heli. It was some three months later, after she returned from her visit with her aunty Elizabeth the mother of John the baptist, that she was found to be pregnant with the son of Joseph the son of Heli.​