Jesus Christ is God BUT NOT THE FATHER - WHP CAME UP WITH THIS????

[Scotth1960]

Yes, but I don't employ its use in the restrictive, elitist manner you do as pertaining to the GOC/EOC; and being some separate entity from saints at large.



During its early growth, it reached a diluted compromise of Godhead doctrine while trying to fit God to a pre-conceived formula by deduction. If you had any knowledge of Nicea whatsoever, you'd know it was a process of deductive reasoning while opposing Arianism and others. We have inherited this incomplete formulation. The powerful, sharp, two-edged sword of the word (spoken by the Word Incarnate) wasn't used to delineate F-S-HS. THE word was supplanted by A word... person(s); thus making God three centers of sentient consciousnesses, when God only has one mind-will.



Nonsense. False dichotomy. The Church isn't limited to the GOC and scattered individuals. The Church is those betrothed to Jesus by faith.



Everyone who has challenged it has been anathematized. Your disdain for modern Oneness reaffirms this. And it's been 1800 years. That first 200 is minimized and glossed over, which you will continue to do as your fallacious "Apostolic Trinity bridge".



Everyone here has already "received" something they adamantly believe, and few have ears to hear. There are teenagers adamantly declaring doctrine they can't back up; and there are more goofy beliefs here than I've seen before in any one place. You sure aren't looking any deeper, and all you do is tout orthodox doctrine without exegesis or apologetic. My extensive affirmations list and disaffirmations should build credibility; as should my brief exegesis of John 15:26 against Filioque error.

Prove Trinity persons isn't creedal instead of Scriptural; build your case from the Word, and without whining that I'm Sola Scriptura. You present a thorough exegetic apology for Trinity, and I will gladly rebut with mine. Orthodoxy should go first since it's so "substantial". Tell HOW the HS proceedeth from the Father, not just THAT He does so. Same for sent. Same for the Word becoming flesh. Tell HOW Jesus proceeded*forth and came. Bring friends, even.



A word doesn't replace "persons", "persons" was a substitute for the truth because they didn't find it in Isaiah, Matthew, 2Peter, John, 1John, Hebrews, 1Thessalonians, Colossians, Philippians, Revelation, and Acts. Tell me... how did the Holy Spirit appear at Pentecost to be received?



Christ has called us to obedience and love and faith with good works. I'm not hesitating; I'm waiting for the sound of the going in the mulberries.



I slander no one. I challenge incomplete truth and default indoctrination of assent by affiliation.



You continue to miss the entire point. The early fathers [I[overlooked[/i] the truth; I never said it was malicious. The remainder was predominantly fine. I've read of many who considered the truth through the centuries, but none could tie it together, and nobody wanted to challenge orthodoxy; so... it remained an undeveloped possibility.

The hinge-point is ekporeuomai in John 15:26. That should say something to you.

You set forth as truth your doctrine of "no Trinity" and "no persons", without apologetic.
You say I offer no proof, well, Matthew 28:19 is proof. It is valid to deduce persons from this verse. It is not valid to delay revealing a truth you seem to be saying you received from God, maybe through personal study? Which of the early church writers held your "No Trinity", "no persons" theology? If they are the Church, how come it is not widely received that that is so? Also, how can you reject Filioque, and abandon Trinity? You have part truth, mixed with part error. Go figure.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Yes, but I don't employ its use in the restrictive, elitist manner you do as pertaining to the GOC/EOC; and being some separate entity from saints at large.



During its early growth, it reached a diluted compromise of Godhead doctrine while trying to fit God to a pre-conceived formula by deduction. If you had any knowledge of Nicea whatsoever, you'd know it was a process of deductive reasoning while opposing Arianism and others. We have inherited this incomplete formulation. The powerful, sharp, two-edged sword of the word (spoken by the Word Incarnate) wasn't used to delineate F-S-HS. THE word was supplanted by A word... person(s); thus making God three centers of sentient consciousnesses, when God only has one mind-will.



Nonsense. False dichotomy. The Church isn't limited to the GOC and scattered individuals. The Church is those betrothed to Jesus by faith.



Everyone who has challenged it has been anathematized. Your disdain for modern Oneness reaffirms this. And it's been 1800 years. That first 200 is minimized and glossed over, which you will continue to do as your fallacious "Apostolic Trinity bridge".



Everyone here has already "received" something they adamantly believe, and few have ears to hear. There are teenagers adamantly declaring doctrine they can't back up; and there are more goofy beliefs here than I've seen before in any one place. You sure aren't looking any deeper, and all you do is tout orthodox doctrine without exegesis or apologetic. My extensive affirmations list and disaffirmations should build credibility; as should my brief exegesis of John 15:26 against Filioque error.

Prove Trinity persons isn't creedal instead of Scriptural; build your case from the Word, and without whining that I'm Sola Scriptura. You present a thorough exegetic apology for Trinity, and I will gladly rebut with mine. Orthodoxy should go first since it's so "substantial". Tell HOW the HS proceedeth from the Father, not just THAT He does so. Same for sent. Same for the Word becoming flesh. Tell HOW Jesus proceeded*forth and came. Bring friends, even.



A word doesn't replace "persons", "persons" was a substitute for the truth because they didn't find it in Isaiah, Matthew, 2Peter, John, 1John, Hebrews, 1Thessalonians, Colossians, Philippians, Revelation, and Acts. Tell me... how did the Holy Spirit appear at Pentecost to be received?



Christ has called us to obedience and love and faith with good works. I'm not hesitating; I'm waiting for the sound of the going in the mulberries.



I slander no one. I challenge incomplete truth and default indoctrination of assent by affiliation.



You continue to miss the entire point. The early fathers [I[overlooked[/i] the truth; I never said it was malicious. The remainder was predominantly fine. I've read of many who considered the truth through the centuries, but none could tie it together, and nobody wanted to challenge orthodoxy; so... it remained an undeveloped possibility.

The hinge-point is ekporeuomai in John 15:26. That should say something to you.

You set forth as truth your doctrine of "no Trinity" and "no persons", without apologetic.
You say I offer no proof, well, Matthew 28:19 is proof. It is valid to deduce persons from this verse. It is not valid to delay revealing a truth you seem to be saying you received from God, maybe through personal study? Which of the early church writers held your "No Trinity", "no persons" theology? If they are the Church, how come it is not widely received that that is so? Also, how can you reject Filioque, and abandon Trinity? You have part truth, mixed with part error. Go figure.

The difference is that I can present one, and just haven't done so. You canNOT present one. Orthodoxy should be substantial. Okay... Just prove the HS has a separate mind.

DUDE! Matthew 28:19 doesn't even have name pluralized, and doesn't say what F-S-HS ARE. I affirm the F-S-HS. Prove they are persons.

No early Father held this view. An early now-rescinded restriction prevented it. I can easily reject both Filioque and Trinity. Filioque presumes proceedeth and sent to be synonomous. Trinity presumes F-S-HS are persons, making one into three.

 

[HeavenwithinYOU]

Jesus has a throne in Heaven as GOD... BUT.. HEAVEN is the FATHERS Throne...

Matthew 18:10 - "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."

GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS CHRIST ARE DISTINCTLY different entities BUT SHARE ONENESS .. ONE MIND... GET IT? GOD THE FATHER HAS created in Christ HIS OWN DEITY in the fullness.

BUT REMEMBER:

1 Corinth 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.”c Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[Scotth1960]

The difference is that I can present one, and just haven't done so. You canNOT present one. Orthodoxy should be substantial. Okay... Just prove the HS has a separate mind.

DUDE! Matthew 28:19 doesn't even have name pluralized, and doesn't say what F-S-HS ARE. I affirm the F-S-HS. Prove they are persons.

No early Father held this view. An early now-rescinded restriction prevented it. I can easily reject both Filioque and Trinity. Filioque presumes proceedeth and sent to be synonomous. Trinity presumes F-S-HS are persons, making one into three.

On the basis of what Scripture do you prove they are not persons? Consider Acts 5. Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. Only a person can be lied to. Take care.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

On the basis of what Scripture do you prove they are not persons? Consider Acts 5. Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. Only a person can be lied to. Take care.

That (bolded) is ridiculous.

The Incarnate Word WAS a person. (2Cor. 2:10)

On the basis of what scripture do you prove they ARE persons? You call for me to prove a negative, when you can't prove a positive.

On the basis of Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22, Matthew 12:18, 2Peter 1:17, Colossians 2:9, and many others. I'd give you the main few, but it might make it too easy.

You don't want to know anyway, other than to oppose anything non-orthodox.

 

[Scotth1960]

That (bolded) is ridiculous.

The Incarnate Word WAS a person. (2Cor. 2:10)

On the basis of what scripture do you prove they ARE persons? You call for me to prove a negative, when you can't prove a positive.

On the basis of Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22, Matthew 12:18, 2Peter 1:17, Colossians 2:9, and many others. I'd give you the main few, but it might make it too easy.

You don't want to know anyway, other than to oppose anything non-orthodox.

Again, you have failed to base your arguments on anything other than a sola Scriptura fallacy. You expect to find everything in Scripture. Where does Scripture state everything to be believed by a Christian is written down in Scripture? What do you do with 2 Thessalonians 2:15, which shows some things come down in spoken words not written down anywhere. Also, it is enough to know that the Church teaches Trinity and persons, the same Church that wrote the NT also inspired the tradition of Trinity and persons. It's just the Church interpreting her own holy Scriptures. We would expect that the Church has the ability to do that, since the gates of hell (mouths of heretics) can't prevail against the Church (Matt. 16:18). To deny Trinity and persons is to put heresy and error in one's own mouth. God have mercy on me. I have committed sins in the past of which I need to repent. Of which I have already repented. There was nothing sinful in believing in the apostolic doctrine of the Holy Trinity (MATTHEW 28:19). Take care.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Again, you have failed to base your arguments on anything other than a sola Scriptura fallacy. You expect to find everything in Scripture. Where does Scripture state everything to be believed by a Christian is written down in Scripture? What do you do with 2 Thessalonians 2:15, which shows some things come down in spoken words not written down anywhere. Also, it is enough to know that the Church teaches Trinity and persons, the same Church that wrote the NT also inspired the tradition of Trinity and persons. It's just the Church interpreting her own holy Scriptures. We would expect that the Church has the ability to do that, since the gates of hell (mouths of heretics) can't prevail against the Church (Matt. 16:18). To deny Trinity and persons is to put heresy and error in one's own mouth. God have mercy on me. I have committed sins in the past of which I need to repent. Of which I have already repented. There was nothing sinful in believing in the apostolic doctrine of the Holy Trinity (MATTHEW 28:19). Take care.

Trinity isn't Apostolic doctrine. Blindly assent to whatever you wish.

 

[Scotth1960]

That (bolded) is ridiculous.

The Incarnate Word WAS a person. (2Cor. 2:10)

On the basis of what scripture do you prove they ARE persons? You call for me to prove a negative, when you can't prove a positive.

On the basis of Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22, Matthew 12:18, 2Peter 1:17, Colossians 2:9, and many others. I'd give you the main few, but it might make it too easy.

You don't want to know anyway, other than to oppose anything non-orthodox.

Acts 5 proves the Holy Spirit is a person. Only a person can be lied to. You can't lie to a "thing" or a "divine force". Energy has no knowledge of truth or lies. What else but a person? You just say "mulberries", and expect us not to laugh.

 

[Scotth1960]

That (bolded) is ridiculous.

The Incarnate Word WAS a person. (2Cor. 2:10)

On the basis of what scripture do you prove they ARE persons? You call for me to prove a negative, when you can't prove a positive.

On the basis of Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22, Matthew 12:18, 2Peter 1:17, Colossians 2:9, and many others. I'd give you the main few, but it might make it too easy.

You don't want to know anyway, other than to oppose anything non-orthodox.

I'm still waiting for you to say what they are, if they aren't persons? What is God, if He is not three Persons? Give me one verse that says "Siamese", please!
You need to be careful in your choice of words. I'm not criticizing your personally, just pointing out you bring in non sequiturs like "siamese triplets" and "mulberries". What are you getting at? If this is supposed to be your serious faith, what (why) are you bringing in bad jokes? God bless you. I guess you just don't have anything from the Bible that is better than persons.

 

[Scotth1960]

That (bolded) is ridiculous.

The Incarnate Word WAS a person. (2Cor. 2:10)

On the basis of what scripture do you prove they ARE persons? You call for me to prove a negative, when you can't prove a positive.

On the basis of Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22, Matthew 12:18, 2Peter 1:17, Colossians 2:9, and many others. I'd give you the main few, but it might make it too easy.

You don't want to know anyway, other than to oppose anything non-orthodox.

If the Incarnate word WAS "a person" (2 Cor. 2:10), why isn't the Father a person and why isn't the Spirit a person? If they are all together one God, how can Jesus Christ be a person, but His Father "ISN'T" a person, and His Spirit "ISN'T" a person. That's inequality in God, which is IMPOSSIBLE. GOD IS GOD. God is the same as Himself. If Jesus Christ is a person, the Father must be a person, and the Holy Spirit too! It's only true! If you'd just accept it.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

If the Incarnate word WAS "a person" (2 Cor. 2:10), why isn't the Father a person and why isn't the Spirit a person? If they are all together one God, how can Jesus Christ be a person, but His Father "ISN'T" a person, and His Spirit "ISN'T" a person. That's inequality in God, which is IMPOSSIBLE. GOD IS GOD. God is the same as Himself. If Jesus Christ is a person, the Father must be a person, and the Holy Spirit too! It's only true! If you'd just accept it.

You need to know what a prosopon (person) is. In fact, you need to know a lot of things.

Mulberry trees are in the Word, and I used the reference appropriately. The Siamese triplets is merely my sarcastic wit in the face of futile orthodox encounters.

 

[Scotth1960]

Yes, but I don't employ its use in the restrictive, elitist manner you do as pertaining to the GOC/EOC; and being some separate entity from saints at large.



During its early growth, it reached a diluted compromise of Godhead doctrine while trying to fit God to a pre-conceived formula by deduction. If you had any knowledge of Nicea whatsoever, you'd know it was a process of deductive reasoning while opposing Arianism and others. We have inherited this incomplete formulation. The powerful, sharp, two-edged sword of the word (spoken by the Word Incarnate) wasn't used to delineate F-S-HS. THE word was supplanted by A word... person(s); thus making God three centers of sentient consciousnesses, when God only has one mind-will.



Nonsense. False dichotomy. The Church isn't limited to the GOC and scattered individuals. The Church is those betrothed to Jesus by faith.



Everyone who has challenged it has been anathematized. Your disdain for modern Oneness reaffirms this. And it's been 1800 years. That first 200 is minimized and glossed over, which you will continue to do as your fallacious "Apostolic Trinity bridge".



Everyone here has already "received" something they adamantly believe, and few have ears to hear. There are teenagers adamantly declaring doctrine they can't back up; and there are more goofy beliefs here than I've seen before in any one place. You sure aren't looking any deeper, and all you do is tout orthodox doctrine without exegesis or apologetic. My extensive affirmations list and disaffirmations should build credibility; as should my brief exegesis of John 15:26 against Filioque error.

Prove Trinity persons isn't creedal instead of Scriptural; build your case from the Word, and without whining that I'm Sola Scriptura. You present a thorough exegetic apology for Trinity, and I will gladly rebut with mine. Orthodoxy should go first since it's so "substantial". Tell HOW the HS proceedeth from the Father, not just THAT He does so. Same for sent. Same for the Word becoming flesh. Tell HOW Jesus proceeded*forth and came. Bring friends, even.



A word doesn't replace "persons", "persons" was a substitute for the truth because they didn't find it in Isaiah, Matthew, 2Peter, John, 1John, Hebrews, 1Thessalonians, Colossians, Philippians, Revelation, and Acts. Tell me... how did the Holy Spirit appear at Pentecost to be received?



Christ has called us to obedience and love and faith with good works. I'm not hesitating; I'm waiting for the sound of the going in the mulberries.



I slander no one. I challenge incomplete truth and default indoctrination of assent by affiliation.



You continue to miss the entire point. The early fathers [I[overlooked[/i] the truth; I never said it was malicious. The remainder was predominantly fine. I've read of many who considered the truth through the centuries, but none could tie it together, and nobody wanted to challenge orthodoxy; so... it remained an undeveloped possibility.

The hinge-point is ekporeuomai in John 15:26. That should say something to you.

You set forth as truth your doctrine of "no Trinity" and "no persons", without apologetic.
You say I offer no proof, well, Matthew 28:19 is proof. It is valid to deduce persons from this verse. It is not valid to delay revealing a truth you seem to be saying you received from God, maybe through personal study? Which of the early church writers held your "No Trinity", "no persons" theology? If they are the Church, how come it is not widely received that that is so? Also, how can you reject Filioque, and abandon Trinity? You have part truth, mixed with part error. Go figure.

You haven't explained how you know John 15:26 disproves the persons of the Trinity. You assume there aren't any persons on God, but you don't provide Scriptures. And of course it is possible to read the Scriptures out of context. You admit the Son is a person. Why accept one person there, and not all three persons? Your view seems haphazard and rather arbitrary. One what basis do you accept one person of the Godhead, but not accept the other two? Is a non-Person a Father of a Person, and is a non-Person the Spirit of Christ?

 

[HeavenwithinYOU]

NOBODY IS RIGHTEOUS NOT ONE! Romans 3:10..... Romans 10:3 warns - Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

HERE is the deal, GOD wants to make YOU.. one with CHRIST..literally... to put YOUR SPIRIT into CHRISTS and to make you ONE with GOD .. hence, HEAVEN is within you and LIVING WATER will flow from within. BUT...

YOU MUST HATE THE WORLD AND ALL THAT IS IN IT AS JESUS SAID:

ASK, READ, REPENT and only seek heaven and do not love the world of anything in it, I promise you all.. that this is what the TRUE message of the Gospel IS because IF YOU JUST OPEN your eyes and heart and take these Scriptures for what they are and BOLDLY ASK GOD for heaven within you now, the Living Water, AND KEEP READING, fasting and pushing hard reading Matthew to Revelations and suffering like JESUS did with fasting and not sinning at ALL.. GOD will do IT!

WATCH my testimony - http://www.youtube.com/my_videos?feature=mhum
THIS IS THE REAL TRUTH OF CHRIST HE HAS SHOWN ME HIMSELF, I COME in the NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST RAISED THE 3rd day by the FATHER who sends the HOLY SPIRIT to those who TRULY REPENT AND ASK AND SEEK AND KEEP SEEKING BOLDLY UNTIL THEY FIND... AND ONLY THOSE WHO SEEK BOLDLY as JESUS SAID in the parable with the man asking for BREAD that was turned away BUT got the bread HE wanted due to HIS BOLD PERSISTENCE!

Luke 11:8 "I tell you, though he will not get up and give him the bread because he is his friend, yet because of the man's boldness he will get up and give him as much as he needs."
•John 17:21 - Jesus said: "That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be IN us."
John 8:31 - "IF you ABIDE in my word, you are TRULY my disciples."
• John 14:21: "He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
• Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple." HATE in really "love less by comparison." In the Greek original.
• John 7:37 - For Jesus stood and cried, saying on the day of the Feast, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his BELLY shall flow rivers of Living Water!"
• Luke 17:21 "nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
• John 7:38 - "Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
• LUKE 12:2 - "... and all that is secret will be made known."
• John 12:25 - "Those who love their lives will destroy them, and those who hate their lives in this world will guard them for everlasting life."
• 1 John 2:15 - "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
• Rev 3:20 - "If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.”
• Galatians 2:20 - "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me."
• 2 Corinthians 13:5 - "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?"
• Hebrews 12:14 - "Without holiness no one will see the Lord."
• 2 Peter 2:2 - "Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute."
• Ephesians 2:14 - For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

• Romans 8:9 -- "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

• Galatians 5:20 -- "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires."

• Colossians 2:11 -- "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ."

• John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world."

• 1 John 2:27 "...and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit."
• 1 John 3:9 - "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

• 1 John 5:18 - "We know that the person who has been born from God does not go on sinning. Rather, the Son of God protects them, and the evil one cannot harm them."
• Luke 24:49 "I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

• John 4: 23 -- "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

• Hebrews 12:8 "If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons."

• John 8:34 - Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."
• Hebrews 10:26 - If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

You haven't explained how you know John 15:26 disproves the persons of the Trinity. You assume there aren't any persons on God, but you don't provide Scriptures. And of course it is possible to read the Scriptures out of context. You admit the Son is a person. Why accept one person there, and not all three persons? Your view seems haphazard and rather arbitrary. One what basis do you accept one person of the Godhead, but not accept the other two? Is a non-Person a Father of a Person, and is a non-Person the Spirit of Christ?

And you haven't explained how God is three persons, you've just stated it... declared it. You have the Platonists and Stoics to thank for such a concept and its influence on Trinity formulation. But YOU insist the Apostles whispered this Hellenistic idea to everyone and passed it by direct succession. Succession was nullified when formulated doctrine replaced truth.

See how you're preoccupied with the term person in all your questions?

Learn what hupostasis is and how it's used biblically, not creedally. Learn the same for ousia. And learn what a prosopon is. Stop teaching or repeating things you know nothing of. And just because the GOC teaches something doesn't mean it's infallible.

Prove the positive that God IS three hupostases/prosopon. You keep insisting I must prove the negative (which I can) while simple declaration. Just because God has traits and we are in His image, doesn't allow us to anthropomorphize Him in our own image.

Trinity forms God in multiplicity of man's image.

 

[Scotth1960]

You need to know what a prosopon (person) is. In fact, you need to know a lot of things.

Mulberry trees are in the Word, and I used the reference appropriately. The Siamese triplets is merely my sarcastic wit in the face of futile orthodox encounters.

Sarcasm proves falsity. The truth of God is peaceable, gentle, kind, righteous, forgiving, charitable. You once believed in the Trinity. That was true faith. You fell away from it. You give no basis for saying Christ is a prosopon (person), but the Father is not a person, the Spirit is not a person. I know some Greek, person is hypostasis in Greek. I don't know what a prosopon is. Anyway, if Christ is a person, the Father is a person, and the Spirit is q person, as there is no in-equality in God. Your belief is not from apostolic tradition now. If you were a pastor for so many years, you should have learned the truth about the Trinity, and learned the warnings in Scripture against falling away. If Christ is God, the Father and Spirit are God. If Christ is a person, the Father and Spirit are persons. Your view lacks balance and accuracy. It's a whim. It is futile. Denying the Trinity is false. Use all the sarcasm you wish, it won't change the truth. All Christians are Trinitarians. To be against Trinity is to be against the Word of God. You were doing fine. Something must have changed to bring you into error. I hope your recover and find the true faith again. All Christians, whether they be Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, share a common faith in the Trinity. There are the Three Ecumenical Creeds Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian. The only matter of controversy to be resolved between the three communities, Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox, is the matter of the Filioque. It is at least good you understand the Filioque is an error.
You don't have to be Orthodox to be a Trinitarian, but you need to be Trinitarian to be a Christian.
Anyway, one can be a true Christian without knowing Greek. I am just a layman, I'm not an expert in Greek exegesis. I rely upon those people who know Greek, and, for heaven's sake, the Greek Orthodox Church certainly knows Greek better than either of us. Take care.

 

[Scotth1960]

Spell it out, Wonderland.

There was no God-model formulation handed down by the Apostles. In the earliest years of the primitive Church, emphasis was given to a biblical mode of living rather than developing theology. As the need for apologetics emerged to combat Gnosticism and Polytheism, various formulations came about. All were primarily to maintain Monotheism while accounting for Jesus.

With variations, six basic God-models became well-developed from the late-1st century onward. One of those was Sabellianism/Monarchianism/Patripassianism, which is (are) the original forerunner(s) for modern Oneness doctrine. It wasn't that the Father was the Son, so much as it was One God manifested in various ways, including as the Son.

Trinity "won" the contest of God-models, and has declared all others anathema and heretical. Unitarianism, Binitarianism, Tritheism, Arianism, and Sabellianism have all been anathematized by the orthodox church and all other trinitarians.

All ecclesio-political leverage aside, Oneness is as valid as Trinity. Modes and Persons both need to give way to truth. The most annointed men of God I've known have all been Oneness.

Dear Pneumapsuchesoma, The references in 1 Samuel and 1 Chronicles to mulberry trees say nothing about the nature of God, or whether or not God is a Trinity or God is three persons. Your bringing it up is irrelevant to the issue. Not everything Biblical is dogmatic; some Bible is merely historical facts of relative but not infinite interest. We need to seek the things in the word of God which speak to eternal matters: how to be saved, what a Christian must do to obey the will of God and be saved, what true doctrines are and what the Bible teaches about God, the Church, and the sacraments of the Church. Not about incidental things like the diet (foods) of John the Baptist while he was in the wilderness. And mere historical curiosities about whether the Revelation was written before or after 70 AD. That may tend to affect its proper interpretation, for Revelation begins to make more sense if it was a pre-70 AD prophecy of the destruction of the temple. If it was written after 70 AD, it is no longer prophecy, but history of a destruction that already occurred. Take care. You are right on some things but you don't want to participate in this. The Trinity belief prevailed, and why did it prevail: because it is the true faith, the true belief. Sabellianism, Gnosticism, Judaism, Binitarianism, Unitarianism, Macedonianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism, Apollinarianism, Novationism, Origenism, Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism (the EOC is NOT semi-Pelagian!), Montanism, Arianism, and all the other ancient heresies were defeated by the Orthodox Church. The only remaining heresy to be corrected and defeated by the Orthodox Church is Semi-Sabellianism (the FILIOQUE). To say the other ancient heresies were defeated does not suggest triumphalism of the Orthodox Church. In spite of the existence of the true Church, some error still continues to exist because men are sometimes ignorant and hate the truth.
If you reject the Filioque, you are just half way home. You also need the Trinity.
We need God's mercy. All of us. If you believe Christ is God, it is not logical to not believe in the Trinity. Maybe you would fall into some form of Monophysitism, saying Christ is God, is divine, but is not a man, not a human person. That is false too. To deny the Trinity is a false faith, and nothing from the catholic and apostolic church. Take care.
Dear pneumapsuchesoma. What do you mean by Oneness? Do you suggest that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are all Jesus Christ? Do you suggest they are all One Person? What does Oneness mean? And what Scripture says God is not three? See for example 1 John 5. Even without 1 John 5:7, which many dispute, there are verses in this chapter which show the one God is three. Take care.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Scott...

Since you contend that I was previously in the faith and am now anathema, even though I was absolutely lost without Christ and have now repented, believed, and been scripturally baptized; I leave you in peace regarding this subject as you pursue your Orthodox faith.

 

[Scotth1960]

Trinity isn't Apostolic doctrine. Blindly assent to whatever you wish.

Are you still waiting for the sound of going in the mulberries, or whatever nonsense that is? Your mulberries quote doesn't make any sense at all! It has nothing to do with the reference to mulberry trees in the Scriptures, which is a non-sequitur historical fact from 1 Samuel and 1 Chronincles. It doesn't establish anything, any doctrine, about the Godhead, to refer to mulberry trees. God is not a created thing. That should be obvious. Your statement lacks a certain meaning. I think you need to get back to what you used to believe, but I will give you encouragement not to believe in the Filioque: it's an error. But Trinity is not an error. It's not logical to say that if Filioque is an error, then Trinity is an error. That doesn't follow logically, or theologically, and is not based on sound doctrine or any Scripture. Take care.

 

[Scotth1960]

Scott...

Since you contend that I was previously in the faith and am now anathema, even though I was absolutely lost without Christ and have now repented, believed, and been scripturally baptized; I leave you in peace regarding this subject as you pursue your Orthodox faith.

A lot of errors come from failing to understand the Bible (cf. 2 Peter 3). What do you think is Scriptural baptism? Do you think Matthew 28:19 is not Scriptural baptism?. Go figure. Isn't that Christ Himself speaking in the Gospel? Are you placing that against baptism in the name of Jesus in the book of Acts? Matthew and Acts can't contradict each other. Take care.

 

[Scotth1960]

The difference is that I can present one, and just haven't done so. You canNOT present one. Orthodoxy should be substantial. Okay... Just prove the HS has a separate mind.

DUDE! Matthew 28:19 doesn't even have name pluralized, and doesn't say what F-S-HS ARE. I affirm the F-S-HS. Prove they are persons.

No early Father held this view. An early now-rescinded restriction prevented it. I can easily reject both Filioque and Trinity. Filioque presumes proceedeth and sent to be synonomous. Trinity presumes F-S-HS are persons, making one into three.

I want to apologize what I said to you about laughing at your mulberries comment. Tradition tells us that laughter can be a sin, and it is not an indication of enlightenment necessarily. It can be condescension, and I am not meaning to look down on you. I'm sorry. I feel sad for you if you strayed into Oneness Sabellianism. If you know Church history, you know the pope of Rome, Calixtus, excommunicated Sabellius. Wasn't that in 220 AD? Anyway, the popes were still without error in the early Church era, and hadn't fallen into semi-Sabellianism yet. Take care.