Jesus Christ is God BUT NOT THE FATHER - WHP CAME UP WITH THIS????

Scotth1960 · Mar 12, 2011

[quote=PneumaPsucheSoma;399428]You continue to selectively use Sola Scriptura from your Protestant roots. I do not, but you accuse me of doing so.

Hupostasis cannot be superimposed where it doesn't exist. I'm not being Sola Scriptura when saying that.

YOU insist on a Sola Scriptura NEGATIVE to prove Trinity. You are both inconsistent and irrational.

Just stop.[/quote]
I am not inconsistent or irrational. I didn't say everything must be in Scripture. But you insist I produce a Scripture that says "persons" or "Trinity" before you will believe it. I'm not Sola Scriptura. You sound like you are asking for proof based on Scripture alone. I'm not being inconsistent. And besides, some of your thinking doesn't come from Scripture. You meander into inconsequential matters, and mulberry tree is not a doctrinal teaching of the Bible, even if you can wander away from the main point and find mulberry trees in the OT! Go figure. You also use your own irrational thinking about Siamese things. It's not something that shows anyone they should not believe in persons or Trinity. You're just trying to understand what was not intended to be understood: Who, what finite, sinful man, can hope to understand God in His nature and persons? Even in His persons, there is no analogy to human nature. How can the one God be three persons? We just have to believe it and accept it as a child believes, for a childlike faith, according to Christ, is what Christ values; thus He said let the little children come unto Him, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven. We need to become like little children, not thinking and rationalizing for ourselves. And seeking to come up with new doctrines through many years of private study. The Bible is public revelation, and the public Church has always taught and believed in the Holy Trinity. A little child believes what Mother Church says, and not his own private opinions based on his own unguided personal private reading of the Scriptures.
Many people have misused the Scriptures, reading things on their own: they deny the Trinity, and some of these anti-Trintarians even devolve into violent cults like the Branch Davidians and David Koresh, calling themselves Messiahs and Christs. No, I'm not saying that you are going to that extreme. But all sectarians and private interpreters of Scripture deny the Trinity by some heretical private opinion made up on their own whims.
Waiting for the "going of the sound of the mulberries" in their minds before they will finally reveal "the truth" to a world that needs the truth now, not tomorrow. Of course, when we know the truth, we don't know every truth of the Bible. We know in part, and say in part. We just know some of the truth, not every truth in Scripture. But we can know the wholly true thing, the truth, even if we can't say everything about the truth in one short period of time. Truth, Jesus Christ, is a Person beyond our finite, rational human minds. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

PneumaPsucheSoma · Mar 12, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

I am not inconsistent or irrational. I didn't say everything must be in Scripture. But you insist I produce a Scripture that says "persons" or "Trinity" before you will believe it. I'm not Sola Scriptura. You sound like you are asking for proof based on Scripture alone. I'm not being inconsistent. And besides, some of your thinking doesn't come from Scripture. You meander into inconsequential matters, and mulberry tree is not a doctrinal teaching of the Bible, even if you can wander away from the main point and find mulberry trees in the OT! Go figure. You also use your own irrational thinking about Siamese things. It's not something that shows anyone they should not believe in persons or Trinity. You're just trying to understand what was not intended to be understood: Who, what finite, sinful man, can hope to understand God in His nature and persons? Even in His persons, there is no analogy to human nature. How can the one God be three persons? We just have to believe it and accept it as a child believes, for a childlike faith, according to Christ, is what Christ values; thus He said let the little children come unto Him, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven. We need to become like little children, not thinking and rationalizing for ourselves. And seeking to come up with new doctrines through many years of private study. The Bible is public revelation, and the public Church has always taught and believed in the Holy Trinity. A little child believes what Mother Church says, and not his own private opinions based on his own unguided personal private reading of the Scriptures.
Many people have misused the Scriptures, reading things on their own: they deny the Trinity, and some of these anti-Trintarians even devolve into violent cults like the Branch Davidians and David Koresh, calling themselves Messiahs and Christs. No, I'm not saying that you are going to that extreme. But all sectarians and private interpreters of Scripture deny the Trinity by some heretical private opinion made up on their own whims.
Waiting for the "going of the sound of the mulberries" in their minds before they will finally reveal "the truth" to a world that needs the truth now, not tomorrow. Of course, when we know the truth, we don't know every truth of the Bible. We know in part, and say in part. We just know some of the truth, not every truth in Scripture. But we can know the wholly true thing, the truth, even if we can't say everything about the truth in one short period of time. Truth, Jesus Christ, is a Person beyond our finite, rational human minds. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

[/QUOTE]

Exactly my point. Trinity is man's attempt to explain God, then revert to mystery at the precipice of personal understanding. Go back to what the Church originally believed in unformulated simplicity... God, His Word as Jesus, and His Spirit. I'd be fine with that over formulated Trinity error.

Scotth1960 · Mar 12, 2011

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

Exactly my point. Trinity is man's attempt to explain God, then revert to mystery at the precipice of personal understanding. Go back to what the Church originally believed in unformulated simplicity... God, His Word as Jesus, and His Spirit. I'd be fine with that over formulated Trinity error.[/quote]

You said, "Go back to what the Church originally believed ..." EXACTLY. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). Nothing here or there about them not being persons. That's where it gets complicated and not simple, because you refuse the simplicity of the Church view. The Church had no problem with the word "persons". You're rejecting the ancient faith because you rely on 13 years of private study of the Scripture, rather than looking at how ancient Church writers interpreted Scripture. They should know better than you or I what the NT means. Take care.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Mar 12, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

STILL your continued prove-the-negative mentality (bolded). Nothing there about them NOT being rhinoceri or babboons or oak trees, either. Ridiculous. Wow, it doesn't say they're NOT persons, so they simply MUST be persons. Moronic reasoning in general. Monumentally so for doctrine.

theBibleisawsome · Jan 21, 2012

Jesus is God there r not 3 gods whoever says there are three gods is against theBible a quick example the Bible says God raised Jesus from the dead and Jesus said himself destroy this temple and I will raise it in three 3 days putting them both together says Jesus is God.im a son right now when I have a kid ill be a father and I have a spirit in me 3 titles but im still one father a.d son are titles not a name we are made in the image of God so he to is one like us only one God. JOHN 1:1 says the word was God and verse 14 says word was made flesh that word was Jesus so again Jesus is God there r so many examples I can give but ill just give this for now Jesus is God God bless u all

acesneverwin · Jan 21, 2012

Crazy4GODword said:

I agree... that's how I always saw it too... it's like water...
Liquid water is H20 but not Ice
Ice is H20 but not Steam
Steam is H20 but not Liquid

JaumeJ · Jan 21, 2012

God is One. Being the creator of all things, don't you think He is able to manifest Himself in whatever manner necessary in order to convince us we need salvation, and that He loves us enough to experience an horrible death on the cross for each of us. I believe the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are One because even Jesus teaches that God is One, not to mention Moses. I am not prepared to reveal the mystery of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit right now; no, I think I will wait until His Day to learn this mystery, from Him

Deadflesh · Jan 21, 2012

Hi!

My Name is ROB

I was made in the Image of GOD.

Im BODY, MIND(Soul) and SPIRIT.

My BODY is ROB. My MIND(soul) is ROB. My SPIRIT is ROB.

My MIND(Soul) is not my spirit. My SPIRIT is not my BODY, and my BODY is not my mind(Soul). YET They are all ROB.

When you look at me YOU CAN NOT SEE MY MIND(soul) OR SPIRIT. ONLY my BODY.

They are in a perfect MARRIAGE, a COVENANT. THREE are ONE. ONE are THREE.

But that is not THREE ROBS.

That is ONE ROB and three distinct individual parts of ROB. Cant have ROB with OUT BODY, MIND and SPIRIT.

Im ONE ROB. ONE BODY OF ROB houses the MIND and the SPIRIT of ROB.

...Im Made in GODS IMAGE.

Its that simple i think.

Thats how i see it. Make sense?

Mediate · Jan 21, 2012

None of this makes ANY sense at all.

To me, the spirit is in everything which has faith. We are told a lot that when we accept Jesus and God into ourselves that this spirit enters us, but before any of that, it is God's attribute, God's own property if you will pardon the word, not a separate being entirely. I mean, God is one entity, not three??!!.

The Father is most certainly God, and the Son is certainly Jesus. As for mind's and bodies and spirits. Yes we all have a mind, and a body, and a spirit/soul.

So to summarise, the Father - God. The Son - Jesus. The Holy Spirit - God's soul/lifeforce/spirit (which I believe can enter the faithful) - this would encompass everything Godly. perhaps it is love?

But it makes little sense to be told we are made in god's image, then actually, no we aren't because God is three separate entities . . kind of contradicts itself.

Mediate · Jan 21, 2012

To the comment about childlike faith, I don't think I ever believed in the trinity at any stage of my life. I always saw God as my friend, a person who looked like me, thought like me, who was one entity, like me. I seemed to just know instinctively what was right at every turn, as a child,and what was wrong (NOT THAT I NEVER DID ANYTHING BAD). And as for just believing what we are fed, Jesus himself challenged the church teachings.

I know with adulthood comes more responsibility to do that, but honestly, I'd give anything to have that level of faith that I had as a child. I just 'knew'. I didn't need to question or ask 'why', it just made sense to me, and the parts that didn't make sense, I discarded and hung on to what I knew.

I think the world is totally wrong nowadays. You could never just go on blind, childlike faith, it does not allow you because it is so corrupt and power driven that any attempt to be simply ' normal ' is met with hatred. 'no ambition, no prospects, where are you going to be in ten years eh?'. As a child, everything feels so real. You share your sweets and suddenly you felt fuzzy inside. Now you wait to be taken advantage of.

I remember sitting in religion class, riveted at all the stories and parables, about the Exodus from Egypt and I was amazed. And the book made so much sense to me. I never worried for the first 5 years of my life. I just got on with it. And I felt so close to God. Feel so far now . . But the point is, the hatred is even spilling onto people who have 'christian' faith.

Calling people infidels for being taught something different to you, or for simply not understanding, is not what the book's about. You cannot always believe what you don't understand. That is why the first point of contact is the bible, for people to hear what it says to them personally, not to clone on someone else's beliefs.

People may well read the bible, and see that yes, there is mention of a trinity. But a different passage could speak much more to them, to help with their own lives, to talk to them about their problems, to allow them room for love, as God wanted for us.

Calling someone on whether they believe in the trinity or not, then slating them for their views is far from love, my friend.

Whether you believe in 3 parts, or one part, doesn't take away from the true meaning of it all - togetherness.

So the world doesn't have the same views exactly word for word, but if someone knows there is a God up there and is willing to help others, to be patient, kind, to not ask less than is fair, to give more than is fair, to leave the testing to God, the judgement to God (which we all know is hard), to comfort people in distress, and to lift people up and make their lives easier instead of stressful, then that is a good world. And a good world is all God really wants from us in the end.

OldOrthodoxChristian · Jan 21, 2012

resurrection33;392340 said:

That is an ancient heresy known as modalism or Sabellianism. See Wikipedia for details.
God is three Persons, not one person.

Laodicea · Jan 21, 2012

OldOrthodoxChristian said:

Deuteronomy 6:4
(4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.

The word one here means one as in united not one as in singular
Genesis 1:26
(26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 11:6-7
(6) And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
(7) Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Frank4YAHWEH · Jan 21, 2012

[SIZE=+1]Can A Spirit Being Die?

[/SIZE] Can a spirit being die? More exactly: Can deity (a divine personage) die? If Yahshua the Messiah pre-existed as Deity, or as a Spiritual Being before the world was created, was it possible for him to die (on the tree)? Let the Scriptures answer.

"And Yahshua answering said unto them, The sons of this age marry, and are given in marriage, but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to the angels; and are sons of Yahweh, being sons of the resurrection." (Lu.20:34-36, RSV).

We see that angels of Yahweh cannot die. Once resurrected we will be "equal to the angels" in that we cannot die either. Why is this? It is because we are sons of Yahweh, being sons of the resurrection. But when do we become spirit beings? Is this the same as becoming "sons of Yahweh?"

"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." (1Cor.15:35, 42-44).

It is at the (first) resurrection that we become a spirit being - that we obtain a spiritual body. Please notice the following things that happen at the (first) resurrection:
1) We are raised in power
2) We are raised in glory
3) We are raised in incorruption
4) We are raised to immortality (1 Cor.15:52)
5) We are raised equal to the angels
6) We are raised to become sons of Yahweh, being sons of the resurrection
7) We are raised with a spiritual body
8) We are raised to immortality so we cannot die any more

Luke says those of the first resurrection cannot die. Synonyms of "cannot die" are "incorruption" and "immortal." Paul says those of the first resurrection come forth as spiritual bodies and are incorruptible and put on immortality. Accepting the statements of both Luke and Paul, we find that spirit beings cannot die. When did Yahshua become a spirit being? Again, the Scriptures have the answer.

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Yahshua] was made a quickening [life-giving] spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." (1Co.15:44-46).

This indicates the Messiah was not a spirit being before he was born physically. The physical (body) comes, then the spiritual (body). When was Yahshua declared to be the son of Yahweh? Just as we will be sons of Yahweh by our resurrection from the dead, so Yahshua was declared to be the son of Yahweh "by his resurrection from the dead" (Rom.1:4).

Conclusion? Once mortal man receives immortality (a spiritual body) he cannot die. Is Deity any less? We must conclude, then, that Deity cannot die - in the past, the present, or in the future. Therefore, Yahshua was not Deity nor did he exist as a spiritual being before the world existed - except in the plans of the Father - plans made from the beginning.

"Who verily was foreordained [in the plans] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," (1Pe.1:20).

* "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit" (Jn.3:6). It is one or the other. No person can be both at the same time.

damombomb · Jan 21, 2012

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth , for the world cannot receive,because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him,
but ye know him for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you

theBibleisawsome · Jan 21, 2012

There is only one God thats what the Bible says there r not three gods we r made in the image of God there is God the Father he came in the Flesh as his Son so he can save us the Bible says I am in the Father and the Father is in me their r not one in faith Deuteronomy 6:4 says the Lord our God is one Lord thats just telling us God is one not one in faith and God has a Spirit so God the Father came in the Flesh as his Son to save us the reason he came in the Flesh is because the Bible says noone can see God and live and noone has seen God at anytime thats talking a bout his Spiritual form but he came in the Flesh as His Son to save us and He is a Spirit and he has one Spirit there's more proof I have on this that tbere is one God and His name is Jesus Gby all

Mediate · Feb 20, 2012

I have a simple answer to all this;

God is perfect. God is not tempted by worldly things, nor by Satan. Well errm, in case you are all missing something; Jesus was.

We cannot see God's face, or we will die. In case you missed it, people saw Jesus' face.

'One God' is mentioned numerous times in different contexts. In Isiah, Malachi, and many other books. There is a passage which states 'I DO NOT CHANGE'. Another which says 'THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDES ME'. These are OT passages. If God is one, and does not change, He cannot be three.

Jesus talks in parables and metaphors all the time. When he says 'The Lord and I are one', he means in thought. In action. In will. In grace, in spirit. Not in physical form. God is One. Jesus is the human Son, who has Divinity in his blood. And The Holy Spirit is God's force, his will, his knowledge. Which we all have;

'And He breathed His Holy Spirit in to the dust, and there was life'.

God is 'through all, and in you all'.

God's spirit is in everything. It is life itself, and love, and grace, and everything that makes God Godly. It is the means by which he talks to us, enters us.

It is in Jesus. It is in us. It is in the grass, and the trees, and the earth, and the sun.

zackabba · Feb 20, 2012

Mediate said:

1. Pantheism is error. God is not in everything. He gives life to everything (Hebrews 1:3, Acts 17:28).

2. Yes, the only God, who is at the Father's side, has made known the Father, who no one has ever seen (except Jesus - see John 1:1-18)

3. How do you explain passages in the Torah where Moses is said to have seen God? God was seen, but not in His fullness.

4. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Yes, He was tempted in the flesh. Yes, He died in the flesh. They don't pertain to His divinity. When a person dies, you wouldn't say that his spirit dies also, would you? No - it returns to God. In the same way, Jesus gave up His spirit to God (funny that Stephen gave it up to Jesus since he was "not God," huh?) - His spirit did not die, yet His body died.

theBibleisawsome · Feb 25, 2012

Mediate said:

I have a simple answer to all this;

God is perfect. God is not tempted by worldly things, nor by Satan. Well errm, in case you are all missing something; Jesus was.

We cannot see God's face, or we will die. In case you missed it, people saw Jesus' face.

'One God' is mentioned numerous times in different contexts. In Isiah, Malachi, and many other books. There is a passage which states 'I DO NOT CHANGE'. Another which says 'THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDES ME'. These are OT passages. If God is one, and does not change, He cannot be three.

Jesus talks in parables and metaphors all the time. When he says 'The Lord and I are one', he means in thought. In action. In will. In grace, in spirit. Not in physical form. God is One. Jesus is the human Son, who has Divinity in his blood. And The Holy Spirit is God's force, his will, his knowledge. Which we all have;

'And He breathed His Holy Spirit in to the dust, and there was life'.

God is 'through all, and in you all'.

God's spirit is in everything. It is life itself, and love, and grace, and everything that makes God Godly. It is the means by which he talks to us, enters us.

It is in Jesus. It is in us. It is in the grass, and the trees, and the earth, and the sun.

The Bible says that God was manifested in the flesh. 1 Timothy says that.God the Father came in the flesh as his Son. Because if he came as he is we would all die because of his glory.we can't see God n live. Thats why he came in the flesh as his Son to reconcile the world into himself. God bless u

theBibleisawsome · Feb 27, 2012

OldOrthodoxChristian said:

God is not three persons.The Bible says one God. And when u say three persons it sounds like 3 gods.and nowhere in the Bible does it say 3 gods.God bless u

Laodicea · Feb 27, 2012

theBibleisawsome said:

Deuteronomy 6:4
(4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.

It means one as in united not one as in singular.

Jesus Christ is God BUT NOT THE FATHER - WHP CAME UP WITH THIS????

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