Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh
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There is no one scripture that says God is three persons, aswell you know, but all of scripture testifies to one God 3 persons.
I havent evaded it, both you and LBG seem to have this in your minds that questions are evaded. I have asked you many times for explanantions and all I get back is rants about how you were once a trinitarian pastor, and rants against the triniyt, yet nothing inway of ansers.
I taught all the same error that you and other Trinis. And no, I wasn't much of a Pastor as a Trinitarian. I was indoctrinated and lost without Christ, like most Trinitarians.
Yes, I do.
No. You infer that Scripture implies it.
I clearly answered you AGAIN in my previous post.
You just don't accept that personal pronouns can be utilized within ANY God-model... Unitarian, Binitarian, Arian, Sabellian, Tripartite, Tritheist, Bitheist, Triadist, Dyadist, or Transcendentalist.
You say Scripture "testifies" of God as three "persons". Where? How?
"Tyrade" or not, I've answered you.
Yes, I do.
No. You infer that Scripture implies it.
I clearly answered you AGAIN in my previous post.
You just don't accept that personal pronouns can be utilized within ANY God-model... Unitarian, Binitarian, Arian, Sabellian, Tripartite, Tritheist, Bitheist, Triadist, Dyadist, or Transcendentalist.
You say Scripture "testifies" of God as three "persons". Where? How?
"Tyrade" or not, I've answered you.
Okay lets jave a look at LBG's supposed proof text that Jesus is a different god to the Father (basically 2 gods).
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:20-28
LBG starts at v24, bu the the passage really should start at v20. m The whole of chapter 15 is to do with the ressurection of the dead, some in Corinth were denying the ressurection of believers (v12).
Here Paul is talking about Christ handing over the kingdom to the Father at the end of the age, after all enemies have been defeated. Christ is the first fruit meaning we as the crop that follows will be resurected like Him for all eternity.
Here Paul is stressing Christs role as Mediator between God and man, Christ the God-man. Why is it so important that Jesus being God became flesh (God-man), it is of the utmost importance, it also shows why Christ is subject to the Father. Christ is not unequal or inferior. If we look at the VERB 'subject' it does not mean unequality in person it refers to 'function', the verb 'subject is in the future tense.
Subject does not imply inferiority but a difference in roles, subjection does not necessarily imply inferiority.
To put it another way, In order for God to atone for mans sins someone had to ''Subject' Himself to death (are you starting to get the picture LBG). Yet only one with unlimited ability to atone for sin could do that. He had to have unlimited ability to atone because He would be shedding His blooad for humankind. He also had to be perfect because God would not accept blemish like all human kind in the first Adam, the sacrifice had to be unblemished. Who would do that? Only God can do that! And God the Son shed His own blood for us (acts 20:28).
Now so that you can understand this a bit better, lets have a look at Romans, obedience is very key here to understanding the role of Christ as God - man, mediator and High Priest.
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Now Christ in His function subjected Himself to the will of the Father through obedience to death as the last Adam (man).
As the perfect Man Christ had to be obedient to the Father... because if He was our substitute and DISOBEYED the Father then he would not have been perfect!!!!!
Again, As the perfect MAN, Christ had to be obedient to God to fulfill God's plan to redemm humanity. Jesus voluntarily submitted to that plan, to God the Father, in order to save humanity from eternal seperation from God.
In reference to the Kingdom, this is the Kingdom innaugurated by Christ and will be consumated at His return, His function as Mediator and High Priest is what is being taked about, He is still co equally God, yet subordinate in refernce to His obedience unto death to save men as the last adam.
As a Side note, refering to the Kingdom and how that plays out depends on your eschatology.
You see as I said earlier, it is because you have the wrong idea of who God and Jesus are brings you to all the wrong conclusions about who God says He is.
Blessings
Phil
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:20-28
LBG starts at v24, bu the the passage really should start at v20. m The whole of chapter 15 is to do with the ressurection of the dead, some in Corinth were denying the ressurection of believers (v12).
Here Paul is talking about Christ handing over the kingdom to the Father at the end of the age, after all enemies have been defeated. Christ is the first fruit meaning we as the crop that follows will be resurected like Him for all eternity.
Here Paul is stressing Christs role as Mediator between God and man, Christ the God-man. Why is it so important that Jesus being God became flesh (God-man), it is of the utmost importance, it also shows why Christ is subject to the Father. Christ is not unequal or inferior. If we look at the VERB 'subject' it does not mean unequality in person it refers to 'function', the verb 'subject is in the future tense.
Subject does not imply inferiority but a difference in roles, subjection does not necessarily imply inferiority.
To put it another way, In order for God to atone for mans sins someone had to ''Subject' Himself to death (are you starting to get the picture LBG). Yet only one with unlimited ability to atone for sin could do that. He had to have unlimited ability to atone because He would be shedding His blooad for humankind. He also had to be perfect because God would not accept blemish like all human kind in the first Adam, the sacrifice had to be unblemished. Who would do that? Only God can do that! And God the Son shed His own blood for us (acts 20:28).
Now so that you can understand this a bit better, lets have a look at Romans, obedience is very key here to understanding the role of Christ as God - man, mediator and High Priest.
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Now Christ in His function subjected Himself to the will of the Father through obedience to death as the last Adam (man).
As the perfect Man Christ had to be obedient to the Father... because if He was our substitute and DISOBEYED the Father then he would not have been perfect!!!!!
Again, As the perfect MAN, Christ had to be obedient to God to fulfill God's plan to redemm humanity. Jesus voluntarily submitted to that plan, to God the Father, in order to save humanity from eternal seperation from God.
In reference to the Kingdom, this is the Kingdom innaugurated by Christ and will be consumated at His return, His function as Mediator and High Priest is what is being taked about, He is still co equally God, yet subordinate in refernce to His obedience unto death to save men as the last adam.
As a Side note, refering to the Kingdom and how that plays out depends on your eschatology.
You see as I said earlier, it is because you have the wrong idea of who God and Jesus are brings you to all the wrong conclusions about who God says He is.
Blessings
Phil
It is an easy thing to admit that one does not know everything, that is voluntary humility but not the humility that God honors with His grace. The humility that God honors with His grace, through a broken and contrite heart, is when the believer is put in a situation through the plan of God to be reduced and in that situation God is looking to see if the heart is going to humble itself and respond to God's provision through the word that comes from the Holy Spirit and be quickened by that word through grace. In other words the believer is in a situation that the flesh will not do, his own intellect or understanding will not do, others can not help, his ability to be creative and get himself through it will not do, but only responding to God's provision of grace is going to get him through that situation with a purified heart that glorifies God.
Voluntary humility is a mask of the flesh that appears to be godly without the faith and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. This kind of humility can speak great things about the Lord that can be appreciated by the natural disposition of a religious Adam, but is unacceptable to God because the power of God's grace has no place in the heart.
When God became a man through His Son, He reduced Himself and took on the form of a man and humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, because he was full of grace and truth (Jn 1:14). God exalted Him and gave Him a name which is above every name (Phil 2:8,9). It is through His humility that God was able to reveal Himself through and as a man that we can have faith in the God-man, Jesus Christ. He was all God and all man.
As a man He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death. In this respect only was the Father greater than the Son but only through His Son was the Father able to reveal His greatness. Jesus Christ was the see-able evidence, the author of our faith, that God had become a man to dwell among man that He had created, who had fallen, and only He would be able to provide redemption through Himself in the person of His Son. Because of this incredible truth we can worship our Lord Jesus Christ in spirit and truth because we do not deny nor have we been led to deny that God was manifest in the flesh, for that would be the spirit of antichrist. Jesus Christ was the revelation of God, who became a man to provide redemption and reconciliation for all men through His body and blood that was shed.
Voluntary humility is a mask of the flesh that appears to be godly without the faith and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. This kind of humility can speak great things about the Lord that can be appreciated by the natural disposition of a religious Adam, but is unacceptable to God because the power of God's grace has no place in the heart.
When God became a man through His Son, He reduced Himself and took on the form of a man and humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, because he was full of grace and truth (Jn 1:14). God exalted Him and gave Him a name which is above every name (Phil 2:8,9). It is through His humility that God was able to reveal Himself through and as a man that we can have faith in the God-man, Jesus Christ. He was all God and all man.
As a man He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death. In this respect only was the Father greater than the Son but only through His Son was the Father able to reveal His greatness. Jesus Christ was the see-able evidence, the author of our faith, that God had become a man to dwell among man that He had created, who had fallen, and only He would be able to provide redemption through Himself in the person of His Son. Because of this incredible truth we can worship our Lord Jesus Christ in spirit and truth because we do not deny nor have we been led to deny that God was manifest in the flesh, for that would be the spirit of antichrist. Jesus Christ was the revelation of God, who became a man to provide redemption and reconciliation for all men through His body and blood that was shed.
When it says that everything has been put under him, IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD HIMSELF who put everything under Christ Verse 27
Any chance of you responding to this verse Phil, as you know this goes to the heart of the matter
And as to the second point you have COMPLETELY ignored it
You believe Christ is now and always has been SUBJECT to the Father in the economic sense of Trinity
But you believe in the ontological sense it is IMPOSSIBLE for Christ to be subject to the Father
So in what way WILL Christ become subject to the Father in the future when all power, authority and dominion has been defeated
It can have nothing to do with his sacrifice for mankind
You are not directly answering the main points put to you at all, and have completely ignored the second question
Any chance of you responding to this verse Phil, as you know this goes to the heart of the matter
And as to the second point you have COMPLETELY ignored it
You believe Christ is now and always has been SUBJECT to the Father in the economic sense of Trinity
But you believe in the ontological sense it is IMPOSSIBLE for Christ to be subject to the Father
So in what way WILL Christ become subject to the Father in the future when all power, authority and dominion has been defeated
It can have nothing to do with his sacrifice for mankind
You are not directly answering the main points put to you at all, and have completely ignored the second question
Well as you have called into question my beliefs and I have answered the queestions you put to me I feel I must be honest here Zone.
You ATTEMPTED to answer only two of my questions. Neither of which was answered satisfactorily at all.
Yoyu have failed to give me any verse of scripture which states a person must believe Christ is God Himself to have eternal life.
You have suggested the only reason the spirit came on Christ in bodily form at his baptism was as a sign for John, that is opinion and not born out byu the facts.
And you have given me no scripture where Christ commanded anyone to believe he was God Himself
The I Am reference with Ex 3:14 as your reference must be related to the angel of the lord who appeared to Moses in the burning bush
This is made[plain by Ex 3:2 and Steven in Acts ch 7
He was made to be their ruler and deliverer by God Himself THROUGH THE ANGEL WHO APPEARED TO HIM IN THE BURNING BUSH
Acts 7:35
You give me personal opinion and no plain scripture for you cannot
So you believe that eternal life hinges on something not written in the Bible, as do so many others
But please note, I answered all your questions. You may not have vthought much of the replies, but at least I answered them
I think you should have the gravce and honesty to admit you CANNOT answer the questions put to you.
This is all I get all the time. I am expected to answer others questions while they refuse to answer mine
Yet these are people who believe they know the truth of the Bible and I am in error. I am told I am a heretic, condemned, have the spirit of antichrist in me and can have no eternal life(I know you have not said any of these things Zone)
All I can say is. If my simple questions cannot be answered people should be humble enough to admit it. I have admitted I cannot answer every question put to me on this subject, I have never met anyone who can. Biut if people cannot answer simply put queestions they are not such an authority on scripture that they think they are, this may account for why they have the opinions they do, opinions that contradict the plainest of scripture
I hope you will question me no more on this subject Zone
You ATTEMPTED to answer only two of my questions. Neither of which was answered satisfactorily at all.
Yoyu have failed to give me any verse of scripture which states a person must believe Christ is God Himself to have eternal life.
You have suggested the only reason the spirit came on Christ in bodily form at his baptism was as a sign for John, that is opinion and not born out byu the facts.
And you have given me no scripture where Christ commanded anyone to believe he was God Himself
The I Am reference with Ex 3:14 as your reference must be related to the angel of the lord who appeared to Moses in the burning bush
This is made[plain by Ex 3:2 and Steven in Acts ch 7
He was made to be their ruler and deliverer by God Himself THROUGH THE ANGEL WHO APPEARED TO HIM IN THE BURNING BUSH
Acts 7:35
You give me personal opinion and no plain scripture for you cannot
So you believe that eternal life hinges on something not written in the Bible, as do so many others
But please note, I answered all your questions. You may not have vthought much of the replies, but at least I answered them
I think you should have the gravce and honesty to admit you CANNOT answer the questions put to you.
This is all I get all the time. I am expected to answer others questions while they refuse to answer mine
Yet these are people who believe they know the truth of the Bible and I am in error. I am told I am a heretic, condemned, have the spirit of antichrist in me and can have no eternal life(I know you have not said any of these things Zone)
All I can say is. If my simple questions cannot be answered people should be humble enough to admit it. I have admitted I cannot answer every question put to me on this subject, I have never met anyone who can. Biut if people cannot answer simply put queestions they are not such an authority on scripture that they think they are, this may account for why they have the opinions they do, opinions that contradict the plainest of scripture
I hope you will question me no more on this subject Zone
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But, in all fairness to you I will come back and address the Kingdom issue, Now let me clarify that.
Subjection, subjected and obedience are Key, in understanding the text now I have addressed that above and you either don't believe or you just actually never really read my post.
If you believe that Jesus is another god, therefore there 2 gods, then you will never understand what is being said, but as i said in fairness I will come back to you, not sure if tonight though band practice at church tonight. I've been trying to eat my dinner, practice chords and answer you at the same time, I should have taken up juggling lol.
Just in the mean time, can you explain why Jesus possess' all the attributes of God if he is another god
Omnipresence
Omniscience
Omnipotence
Pre-existence
Eternalness
Immutability
Thats just to name a few... if Jesus possess; these and God the Father possess' thes and Jesus says 'I, and the Father are one'
how then can they be 2 different God's? since the bible clearly states that there is only one God, and God alone possess' these attributes.
I look forward to a biblical answer LBG.