Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh

livingbygrace · Apr 20, 2011

And you will ghet a Biblical answer

I and the Father are one

That they(the believers )may be one AS we are one John 17:22

So Phil how COULD(I canm't see it hasppening) you and I be one
Could you be me or I you? Can we be one flesh?(I know, persih the trhought!)

No we cannot, we remain two individual people

But we could be of one heart and one mind in the spirit

That they may be one AS we are one

Answered!

I will leave it up to the independant observer as to whether you have answered the points raised in 1 Cor 15:24-28 I admit, I am baised

livingbygrace · Apr 20, 2011

zone said:

I have done no work at all to prove Christ is not God Himself, just believed plain scripture
I do smply believe the plainest of statements on this subject in the Bible Zone, but you are not being honest as to why you are not answering my questions. To be fair to you, no-one else has answered them either

I don't mean you in particularly but this is the problem when people on internet Christian chat sites see them selves as an authority on scripture, they cannot in humility admit when they cannot answer questions, so in effect knowing much of the literal word is not helping them with what is most important in Christianity

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 20, 2011

Hey, LBG...

You're a scholar now. You said economically and ontologically.

livingbygrace · Apr 20, 2011

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

I have a good memory PPS. I learnt those words on a British Christian chat site

I had to ask someone what they meant though

phil36 · Apr 20, 2011

livingbygrace said:

Now I see the magicians slight of hand here LBG, Lets have a look and see what is actually said in John 17:22

21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

The big problem is that you keep picking a verse here and a verse there, to back up your false claims.

First of this is Jesus in prayer,Jesus is praying for Hos followers then and in the future for their unity in Christ, this is a beautiful vision of a unified people of God which John has already spoke about in ch10 v16 and 11:52, believers unity results from being united in God Ch 10:38; 14:10-11,20; 15:4-5.

Once unified they will be able to bear witness to the true identity of Jesus as the One Son of God.

'In us' refers to the Spiritual union and also the persoanal fellowship resulting from that union.

What you implied above is wrong LBG, and does not sit with what John says in His book, nor with the rest of Scripture.

Just in the mean time, can you explain why Jesus possess' all the attributes of God if he is another god

Omnipresence
Omniscience
Omnipotence
Pre-existence
Eternalness
Immutability

Thats just to name a few... if Jesus possess; these and God the Father possess' thes and Jesus says 'I, and the Father are one'

how then can they be 2 different God's? since the bible clearly states that there is only one God, and God alone possess' these attributes.

I look forward to a biblical answer LBG.

livingbygrace · Apr 20, 2011

phil36 said:

Now I see the magicians slight of hand here LBG, Lets have a look and see what is actually said in John 17:22

21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

The big problem is that you keep picking a verse here and a verse there, to back up your false claims.

The big problem is you cannot accept plainly written scripture. Yes, that they may be brought to complete unity, OF ONE HEART AND ONE MIND as I stated

You give me your man made interpretations of scripture built on your unbiblical beliefs, and you end up conmtradicting the plainest of scriptures

And because you cannot answer the questions put to you you write what you do in your opening sentance

I repeat

You believe salvation depends on something that is not written in the Bible

Jesus never commanded anyone to believe he was God Himself but you say we have no eternal life if we do not believe it

This is what Scripture ACTUALLY says

If anyone acknowledges Christ is the son of God, God lives in him and he in God

1 John 4:15

But I know, I am taking that verse out of context or not understanding what it entails

First of this is Jesus in prayer,Jesus is praying for Hos followers then and in the future for their unity in Christ, this is a beautiful vision of a unified people of God which John has already spoke about in ch10 v16 and 11:52, believers unity results from being united in God Ch 10:38; 14:10-11,20; 15:4-5.

Once unified they will be able to bear witness to the true identity of Jesus as the One Son of God.

'In us' refers to the Spiritual union and also the persoanal fellowship resulting from that union.

What you implied above is wrong LBG, and does not sit with what John says in His book, nor with the rest of Scripture.

Just in the mean time, can you explain why Jesus possess' all the attributes of God if he is another god

Omnipresence
Omniscience
Omnipotence
Pre-existence
Eternalness
Immutability

Thats just to name a few... if Jesus possess; these and God the Father possess' thes and Jesus says 'I, and the Father are one'

how then can they be 2 different God's? since the bible clearly states that there is only one God, and God alone possess' these attributes.

I look forward to a biblical answer LBG.

You have had a SCRIPTURAL answer, but obviously it does not fit in with your weak, man made beliefs

AnandaHya · Apr 20, 2011

27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:20-28

so is this the verse then?

For me it quite simple the SON is the fleshly manifestation of the Divine GOD who we can not in our human minds fully comprehend because of HIS vastness and our limited abilities.

If you understand the laws of Thermodynamics and the interrelationship between matter and energy, it will become quite evident that GOD is vast and beyond everything we can observe or describe. Just as the HOLY SPIRIT does things we can not fully understand but we can describe the results of having Jesus as our Lord and savior.

I'm at a lost for words, but Jesus described/compared the Holy spirit to the wind.

what do you know of the wind? It can be a gentle breeze or a hurricane.

in the same way what do you know about God? only what the Bible tells us and our personal experiences affirm:

He is just, merciful, Ahbah, ahdohnai, ahmah, aylohheem, AhHahvah, Chokhmah, Ahmoonah, ehmet, chehsed

father, my Lord, mother, my LORD, Love, wisdom, faith, truth, loving kindness, YHWH, Lord of Host, Jesus, Savior

they all describe GOD but do not limit or fully encompass GOD's greatness. Just as we can not completely see the wind but see the results of the wind, we can not with our human minds or words fully describe GOD.

Jesus is GOD as much as our human minds concieve of the concept that God so loved the world that HE would be born a Man to redeem and bring back into a right relationship with Himself humanity through the perfect obedience to God. He has set the standard with His life as a perfect example we strive to meet and follow.

like I said if Jesus was NOT GOD then you should not worship a man for JESUS said to worship ONLY GOD. He said the Father and I are ONE, just as scripture says. In Heaven three testify: the Father, the Word and the SPirit and all three are one. ON earth: the water, the blood and the Spirit and all three are one. Therefore we worship ONE GOD. names and characteristics for the ONE TRUE GOD. Just as you can be a man, a father and a citizen of whatever country you belong too, they each mean something different, but you are still the same person. GOD is one no matter what role HE choses to act in at any chosen time.

Therefore what name are you saved by?

livingbygrace · Apr 20, 2011

AnandaHya said:

27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:20-28

so is this the verse then?

For me it quite simple the SON is the fleshly manifestation of the Divine GOD who we can not in our human minds fully comprehend because of HIS vastness and our limited abilities.

If you understand the laws of Thermodynamics and the interrelationship between matter and energy, it will become quite evident that GOD is vast and beyond everything we can observe or describe. Just as the HOLY SPIRIT does things we can not fully understand but we can describe the results of having Jesus as our Lord and savior.

I'm at a lost for words, but Jesus described/compared the Holy spirit to the wind.

what do you know of the wind? It can be a gentle breeze or a hurricane.

in the same way what do you know about God? only what the Bible tells us and our personal experiences affirm:

He is just, merciful, Ahbah, ahdohnai, ahmah, aylohheem, AhHahvah, Chokhmah, Ahmoonah, ehmet, chehsed

father, my Lord, mother, my LORD, Love, wisdom, faith, truth, loving kindness, YHWH, Lord of Host, Jesus, Savior

they all describe GOD but do not limit or fully encompass GOD's greatness. Just as we can not completely see the wind but see the results of the wind, we can not with our human minds or words fully describe GOD.

Jesus is GOD as much as our human minds concieve of the concept that God so loved the world that HE would be born a Man to redeem and bring back into a right relationship with Himself humanity through the perfect obedience to God. He has set the standard with His life as a perfect example we strive to meet and follow.

like I said if Jesus was NOT GOD then you should not worship a man for JESUS said to worship ONLY GOD. He said the Father and I are ONE, just as scripture says. In Heaven three testify: the Father, the Word and the SPirit and all three are one. ON earth: the water, the blood and the Spirit and all three are one. Therefore we worship ONE GOD. names and characteristics for the ONE TRUE GOD. Just as you can be a man, a father and a citizen of whatever country you belong too, they each mean something different, but you are still the same person. GOD is one no matter what role HE choses to act in at any chosen time.

Therefore what name are you saved by?

I guess that's my problem then. As I don't understand the laws of thermodynamics and interrelationship between matter and energy I haven't got much chance of understanding who God really is, or have a true understanding of this subject

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 20, 2011

Hey, LBG... Most Trinis say/think I'm an unsaved heretic, and I absolutely affirm the Deity of Christ. In fact, I believe He's "more" God than they do.

BTW... "Heretic" was originally a word that simply meant a type or school of thought. Heresy was teaching, and there were many teachings (heresies). When Iraeneus penned his multi-volume "Against Heresies" work, the etymology began changing and has now transitioned from meaning "a teaching" to "a wrong teaching". Just FYI.

livingbygrace · Apr 20, 2011

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

Hi PPS

Thanks for telling me the original meaning of heresies

I am sorry you have been called a heretic too by trins, but if I am REALLY honest it is nice not to be the only one accused of such things on CC

Some(I do not mean all) trins are extremely arrogant and excude much pride. They demand extra Biblical belief for a person to have eternal life but then demand you accept the scriptures they put before you while feeling free to ignore the scriptures you put before them

They are not all like this. Eternally Grateful is a Trinitarian, but he stands on scripture for what is required for a person to have eternal life, most I have chatted to don't

I thought I had seen it all, believe me, but to be called a heretic, told you have the spirit of antichrist and to be condemned for standing on plain scripture takes the buscuit! And this is what I find most distasteful

I chatted to a trin on another website. Everytime he quoted a scripture I was expected to accept the literal translation of it. Every time I quoted a scripture I was told it had to be understood in 'context' or I needed to refer back to the original Greek or Hebrew. It was hardly a level playing field.

Some of them seem only too eager in their arrogance to condemn you. But what about humility?(I won't mention love, they say they have to speak as they do out of love for the truth of the Gospel)
They haven't enough humility to admit they cannot answer many questions put to them, they just ramble on and on

Anyway, I'd better stop there, cause I am rambling on now

God Bless

I am glad you are on this website BTW
.
btw

Now I know why I cannot understand the truth of Father and son. I don't understand the laws of thermodynamics or matter and energy.
And I thought ity was the Holy Spirit who led us into truth !!!

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 20, 2011

livingbygrace said:

I've never seen anything quite like CC. It's a veritable Jive Jamboree of doctrines. Most other sites are locked-down Trinity-only sites or streamlined weirdness. CC is a hodge-podge of everything imaginable. Most would include me in that, and you, too; and I'm okay with that if it leaves me outside affiliation with Trinitarians, Catho-Ortho OR Proto.

Orthodoxy shot the doctrinal arrow at the barn, and then drew a bullseye around where the arrow struck and called it truth. The Catho-Orthos then said tradition overrides the need for anything to be in Scripture to be that truth. The Protos then said everything had to be in Scripture; but ignore that themselves when convenient, and then resort to shenanigans for altra-biblical issues.

What's a Berean to do?

AnandaHya · Apr 20, 2011

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

OK anyone want to recommend a good website on different Christian denominations? I could tell you the interplay between matter and energy and teach you the laws of thermodynamics as it is understood by modern science and how a photon can be both a particle and an energy wave, but

what are doctrines of "Catho-Ortho" "Proto" etc PPS?

(sigh) trying to learn church history on my own is giving me a headache.

why are there so many denominations and doctrines and stuff???

aworldexport67 · Apr 20, 2011

“Heresy is not so much rejecting as selecting. The heretic simply selects the parts of the Scripture he wants to emphasize and lets the rest go. This is shown by the etymology of the word heresy and by the practice of the heretic. "Beware," an editorial scribe of the fourteenth century warned his readers in the preface to a book. "Beware thou take not one thing after thy affection and liking, and leave another: for that is the condition of an heretique. But take everything with other." The old scribe knew well how prone we are to take to ourselves those parts of the truth that please us and ignore the other parts. And that is heresy. "

"False teachers have some true doctrine. There is not a cult that I know of which does not have some truth in it. That is the one thing that makes them ten thousand times more dangerous than if they were 100 percent in error. These teachers generally believe some things that are true. Our Lord said, 'Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.'"

livingbygrace · Apr 20, 2011

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

I like your explanations of the denominations you mentioned !

From what I have read on Christian chat sites

The RC church believes it is the only true church as they are the church that dates back to the NT

The EOC church believes they are the only true church as the RC fell into errors.

Speaking from much experiance, the Pentecostal church believes they are the true church as they believe they stand full square on
scripture (with emphasis on the gifts of the spirit IE speaking in tongues)

I would say I was happiest in a Baptist church, it wasn't dead like some of the churches, but not too overboard.

I'm afraid I don't know much about the rest.

An interesting point was made by someone on an English chat site.

They believed the two denominations that found it hardest to accept the Gospel of Grace were the two denominations furthest apart doctrinally, RC and Pentecostal
Actually I understand why the person would say that.

I find it strange though.

When the Orthodox believers (mainly from the RC and C of E) stated they are the true church on the English website as they believe they stand on the Apostles teaching I quoted to them some of the core message of Paul on grace and asked them if this was regularly preached in their churches, I was told it wasn't.

And I went to fundamentaslist Pentecostal churches for many years and never once heard preached so much of what Paul wrote concerning the Gospel of Grace

So it is strange. The churches who proclain the most they are the 'true church' seem to shy away from actually preaching the core of the true Gospel message of grace

Oh well

I just call myself a Christian!

AnandaHya · Apr 20, 2011

lol LBG your worst then my high schoolers and their text messaging. lol

OK RC = Reform Church, C of E =???

EOC = Eastern Orthodox church? (lol we have End of course test coming up soon)

didn't know you went to a Baptist church,

you learn something every day. I was baptized in a southern Baptist church, but my husband is most comfortable at the Methodist one we are attending. However his whole side of the family is either Free will Baptist or Church of God. I'm still trying to figure out what the difference is. Most of the people just call themselves Christian too. lol

livingbygrace · Apr 20, 2011

AnandaHya said:

RC=Roman Catholic
C of E= Church of England
EOC= Eastern Orthodox Church

I wonder if your Baptist and Methodist churches wouldn't be somewhat livelier than the ones in England.
I think we are more reserved this side of the pond

AnandaHya · Apr 20, 2011

livingbygrace said:

no the Baptist are rather tame,

lol they just tolerant me and my kids when we decide to dance in the back to the worship music, most just stand in their spot and sing along.

The methodist contemporary services gets more into it they might sway and jump and the kids dance in place but everyone smiles at the kids while they dance in the back if they don't go into the nursery. However the traditional are more formal.

I used to go to an Episcopal church that was very interesting.

Pentecostal churches I hear are very lively and Church of God denomination is also interesting

I think I'm just going to compile a list of local church histories and their founding and mission statements

and learn about the various denomination that way. It will give me an icebreaker when I meet people from all churches.

wisdomseeker · Apr 20, 2011

Red33 said:

This scripture is talking since adam,abel about moses Isaiah And all of the other prophets to Jesus Why do you presume its Jesus only?Did not God do miracles through all the prophets dividing the red sea,turning water to blood,bringing locusts frogs hail,raising the dead,fortelling things to come,burning sodom and gamorah,entering samson and slaying 1000 men not to mention the 100000 other miracles he does every day,including my salvation.

You talk to us as if we are blind yet alls you see is yourself.

Love a friend in God

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 20, 2011

AnandaHya said:

A person could easily busy themselves Googling every imaginable term possible and learn alot in a summary overview manner.

Basically, all the divisions arose from individuals or groups disagreeing with certain key teachings that they felt needed to be reformed into something new and/or different, or merited a restoration of something lost or past. Generally, it was a stand for perceived, preferred truth, ranging from relatively small and non-salvific to huge and absolutely salvific.

Overall, there are several widespread iconic changes and innumerable smaller divisions. Add the fact that the majority of Protestant local churches are autonomous within autonomous denominational structures, and differences expand exponentially, whether subtle or substantial. Non-denoms provide yet more splintering to a well-fragmented situation.

BTW... How in the world are you non-Trinitarian as a Methodist with Baptist background and charismatic leanings?

livingbygrace · Apr 21, 2011

livingbygrace said:

Then the end will come when he (Christ) hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destrpoyed all domkinion, authority and power.
For he must REIGN UNTIL until he has put all his enemies under his feet
The last enemy to be destroyed is deathj
For He has put everything under his feet
Now when it says thatr everything has been put under him IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD HIMSELF WHO PUT EVERYTHING UNDER CHRIST
When he has done this, then the son himself will beciome SUBJECT to him who put everything under him so that God will be all in all
1 Cor 15:14-28

Could you explain these verses and what they are saying, especially the words in capitals?

Yet for us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME and FOR WHOM we live, and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST THROUGH WHOM all things came and THROUGH WHOM we live
1 Cor 8:6

That verse clearly states we have one God, the Father and one Lord who is Christ.

John said

No-one has seen God, yet John lived with Christ on earth for three years.

Christ said

No-one has seen the Father except the one who is from God, only he has seen the Father
John 6:46

I think it is safe to assume John and Christ are refering to the same person

So, Paul, John and Christ believe the Father is the one true God and John believes no-one has seen God, and Christ states no-one has seen the Father

What does the Father say?

But about the son He(the Father) says

Your throne O God will last forever and ever
And righteousness will be a sceptre of your kingdom
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness
Therefore GOD, YOUR GOD has set you above your companions and annointed you with the oil of joy
Heb 1:8&9

A couple of questions here

How can the one true God(if that is who Christ is) have to refer to someone as 'My God'?
How can God Himself have a God that he would have to refer to as such?

Now in those verses it says that God set the son above his companions, so if Christ is God Himself what position did he hold BEFORE HE WAS SET ABOVE HIS COMPANIONS?
Was God Himself then just equal to his companions? Do you believe such a thing is possible?

Regarding Philipians 2:9
Therefore God exalted him(Christ) to the highest place and gave him a name which is above every name

Did God exalt himself to the highest place and give himself a name that is above every name?

The Lord said tpo my Lord
Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet
Psalm 110:1

So did God tell himself to sit at his right hand until he had put his enemies under his own feet?

In my vision at night I looked and there before me was one like a son of man coming with the clouds of Heaven
He approached the ancient of days and was led into his prescence
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power, all peoples,, nations and men of every language worshipped him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed
Daniel 7:13&14

Do you accept that the one like the son of man is Christ?
And do you accept the ancient of days is God? Or the Father?

If so Christ was GIVEN authority, glory and soveriegn power. So if he was given these things what was Christ's position before this?
If Christ has always been God Himself. How could God Himself have sovereign power, authority and glory given to him. Who could bestow such things on God Himself?

Christ said

The Father is greater than I John 14:28

The Father is greater than all John 17:3

That they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John 17:3

I will leave it there for now and give you a chance to respond to my questions

PPS

If you want to answer these in reference to what you said on the other thread I would be happy for you too, but to me any answer could not contradict the plainest of scripture

Please believe me if anyone could fully answer all of my questions and without evasion on this subject and without contradicting scripture I would have no choice but to accept what they were saying to be true. I would have more questions besides this but if you want to answer them please feel free.
But it is a tough task, not because you do not know your Bible but because in exhaustively discussing this subject I have as previously said never met anyone who can answer every question put to them from either side of the argument

I still believe it is the mystery of Father, son and Spirit.
The spirit exhibits in the son fully, thereofre we can say that the Father is fully in the son via the spirit, but as you know I believe scripturally we cannot then say the son is the one true God and the Father must be greater than the son

Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh

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