Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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FreeGrace2 said:
My point was that those who are "alive and remain" when Jesus comes back will never see heaven. Because after being "caught up" in the clouds and receiving their glorified bodies, they will remain with Christ as He continues down to earth to end the Tribulation at the battle of Armageddon and sets up His Millennial Kingdom.

This passage says nothing about resurrection or "rapture". Jesus said this BEFORE His death. So He ALREADY fulfilled this passage. It has nothing to do with end times. All His disciples are already THERE.


Impossible, since there are NO verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.


How about what the Bible ACTUALLY says? Is that a "petulant argument"?

Facts that prove that NO resurrected believer is taken to heaven.

There are just TWO resurrections of the human race; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. This means ONE each.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
This verse describes the resurrection of the saved.

Red words show the sequence.
Blue words shows that the resurrection of Jesus is FIRST.
Green words refers to the Second Advent. EVERY time the Bible mentions "coming" regarding Jesus, it means the SECOND prophesied return of the Lord, which is called the SECOND ADVENT, which occurs to END the Tribulation.
Purple words means ALL believers from Adam forward.

If you can prove any of these colored words to be incorrect, please share.

Rev 20:5 speaks of the resurrection of tribulational martyrs and calls this the FIRST resurrection.

Bingo!

Nothing petulant here. All believers resurrected at the Second Advent, followed by the Millennium.

Just facts. No petulance.
Scripture proves that I am right. No doubt about it. Denying the obvious is the standard (and tragic) post-tribber bunker mentality.
 

kleronomos

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Dec 15, 2021
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Nope. The Bride is immediately taken to the Father's house (John 14) IN HEAVEN to enjoy the immediate consummation of the wedding. This is the first phase of the Jewish wedding sequence.
Why is the JEWISH wedding sequence being used for the GENTILE CHURCH again? Don't you believe the JEWISH are left behind to endure to the end? SO how/why does the GENTILE Church get to use the Jewish wedding sequence for their pre trib rapture? Isn't that just like pouring SALT into a wound?


Exactly what SCRIPTURES are you USING to teach that as the determining factor? And how do those fit with:


Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Matthew 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them:

but gather the wheat into my barn.

OR


Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


And why do you give the Scriptures you must be using more weight than what is written here?


As to John 14 where you state "Nope. The Bride is immediately taken to the Father's house (John 14) IN HEAVEN to enjoy the immediate consummation of the wedding",


Where do you FIND ANY OF THE ABOVE in these verses?


John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow Me now; but thou shalt follow Me afterwards.

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

John 14:7 If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.

John 14:11 Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth Me no more; but ye see Me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him.

John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.








John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave Me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

John 17:2 As thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given Him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest Me to do.



John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 17:15 I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

No need for the 'church' to go anywhere. Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven and HE TOLD US THAT WHEN HE GAVE US POWER OVER ALL OUR ENEMIES. All the 'church' need do is follow His instructions as that will KEEP them from Temptation during the hour of temptation and the gospel armor will keep the fiery darts of Satan away, and God will be using His Elect for the works that need to be done that others find to be to 'great' for them.



John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.



John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world.

John 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent Me.

John 17:26 And I have declared unto them Thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them.
 

kleronomos

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Dec 15, 2021
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Facts that prove that NO resurrected believer is taken to heaven.

WHAT IS WRITTEN (facts) PROVES THAT RESURRECTED BELIEVERS ARE TAKEN TO HEAVEN



Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.



Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.





Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.




Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.











Maybe harder to see...


2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

2Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.



Genesis 28:11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

Genesis 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.




John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?





WHAT WAS IT MARTHA SAID ABOUT THOSE SLEEPING AT THAT TIME? ON THE LAST DAY THEY WILL RESURRECT?

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.




1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
 

montana123

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Oct 9, 2021
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Left Behind Secret Rapture is a lie made up by Satan.

Remember, Left Behind Secret Rapture and rapture are two different things.

The bottom link talks about the rapture and what is rapture.

http://testallthings.com/2010/05/31/when-is-the-rapture/


The Word of God says that Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, John 17:15
There is no resurrection of the saints before the 7 years period and the tribulation is for the last three and one half years.

For the first three and one half years salvation is still offered to the world so the resurrection will not happen at that time because as long as salvation is available to the world the saints will remain on earth to represent the truth.

In the middle of the 7 years period the beast, New Age Christ, claims to be God by evolving through the power of nature to be spiritual and godlike and the false prophet will do miracles in the sight of the people to prove the beast did receive power through nature to be spiritual and godlike and will share this power with all people who follow him.

The saints are on earth at that time for the beast blasphemes against God and His tabernacle which if the saints were not on earth then the beast would not have to go against Christianity for the truth would not be represented on earth which the beast is telling the world to not follow Christianity and there is no personal God and Jesus is not Lord and Savior but evolved to be an ascended master and they will evolve too through the power of nature.

Which Paul said let no person deceive you by any means for the gathering of the saints unto Christ will not happen until there is a falling away first and the man of sin claims to be God.

Which the falling away is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel which the nations will come together and stop the preaching of the Gospel on a world wide level making it a hate crime to preach anything contrary to the new age movement interpretation of religions and this causes the New Age Christ to be able to rule over them.

Which God warns the saints of the new age movement that interprets the Bible according to the occult and evolution(1 Timothy 4:1-5), and the time will come they will not want to hear the truth of the Bible but hear it according to their own lusts to evolve to be spiritual and godlike(2 Timothy 4:2-4).

The New age Christ will establish peace in the middle east and be considered a great man of peace and the biggest player on the world scene and will push the agenda of the new age movement until the world rebels against God.

The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period for the world still has salvation offered to them for the first three and one half years so the wrath of God would not be there, and the beast has power to rule for three and one half years which he would not have that power unless God allowed him to have power so the wrath of God would not be there.

The wrath of God does not happen until the end of the 7 years period that God is giving the world their way to cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom and then he will end sin on earth.

Which then comes the end when the Son shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father and then He will put down all rule, power, and authority on earth.

The saints are on earth when the New Age Christ claims to be God and then they can be gathered unto Christ.

But the Bible says the beast shall make war against the saints and prevail against them, and the saints are given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when he shall accomplish to scatter the power of the holy people then all things will be finished.

So it seems like the saints are going to go through the 7 years period.

The Bible says there is only 2 resurrections one of the saints before the millennial reign, and one of the dead after the millennial reign.

The saints will resurrect at one time and there is no pre-tribulation resurrection, and there is no left behind saints.

2 Timothy 2:16-18 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

When the resurrection does not happen before the 7 years period it will overthrow the faith of many people and they will end up following the new age movement interpretation of the Bible which some will depart from the faith and follow the new age movement.

The New Age Christ will be of the new age movement and when the nations come together they will forbid a man and a woman to marry for population reduction but many people will not care for they are following the new age movement to evolve to be spiritual and godlike and the new age movement believes they do not have to keep increasing the people for their survival of the human race but they will be spiritual in which they will live forever.

And they will command to not eat for they reverence nature, mother earth.

The 7 years will be determined when the nations come together as one for a one world government and religious system which will be all religions interpreted by the new age movement and the resurrection will not happen before that and the saints are going through the 7 years period.

That is what is going on in America and the problems they have which they want those problems is they are trying to implement the new age movement in the nation by a slow implementation that will soon be the operation of the world.

Evolution changed their perspective of reality from the belief in a God to we evolved and are still evolving and there is no personal God and because of that things will change in the world as they try to establish this new reality in the world believing they are doing the will of nature the God of forces.
 

John146

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For those who believe the body of Christ will go through the tribulation...

Question: What part of the body of Christ will go through the tribulation?
 

kleronomos

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The Bible states that there will be ONE resurrection for the saved and ONE resurrection for the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
WHERE does that say 'and that will be all'? Those MEN didn't believe IN CHRIST JESUS, DID THEY?

Where does the bible say there will be JUST ONE resurrection for the saved and JUST ONE resurrection for the unsaved? SAYING there is 'just one' etc. IS A CONCLUSION, it is NOT WRITTEN though you keep claiming it like it is, KNOWING IT IS NOT.


Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

(A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD THAT IS A RESURRECTION OF BOTH JUST AND UNJUST, NOT SAVED AND UNSAVED, not one and one).


Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.


GREEK
A hope having in God which also they themselves await, a resurrection there is about to be of just both and of unjust.


In this also I myself strive without offense a conscience to have toward God and men through everything


778. askeó ►
Strong's Concordance
askeó: to practice, endeavor
Original Word: ἀσκέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: askeó
Phonetic Spelling: (as-keh'-o)
Definition: to practice, endeavor
Usage: I train, practice, exercise.


677. aproskopos ►
Strong's Concordance
aproskopos: not causing to stumble, not stumbling
Original Word: ἀπρόσκοπος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aproskopos
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ros'-kop-os)
Definition: not causing to stumble, not stumbling
Usage: (free from hurt or harm, hence) not offending, not causing offence, blameless.
 

kleronomos

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Dec 15, 2021
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There is no resurrection of the saints before the 7 years period and the tribulation is for the last three and one half years.
Do you believe that there are souls who have remained alive for the past 2000 years in graves waiting to be resurrected when Jesus returns? Wouldn't that be pure torture? I ask this because JESUS SAID if while you are alive you believe in HIM, you never die which would mean they would either have to go to heaven when their flesh body died or they would go alive into the grave with it.

Understand, I don't believe in a 'group' resurrection of saints pre trib. Then again, I don't believe in a 'group' of saints ever being resurrected again. (at this point anyhow). The group of 'saints' resurrected from the dead took place 2000 years ago (and with them 'gentiles' saved by hearing and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ) when the captivity was led captive...the graves opened...the dead heard His voice and if we believe Jesus died and rose, even so them because if the dead don't rise then Christ isn't risen.


The DEAD, those who didn't raise up when the saints did (2000 years ago), along with all those who have died in the past 2000 years without coming to faith before they died, will rise when Christ returns. Just or Unjust? we won't know for another 1000 years when THE DEAD stand in judgment before 'the sea, death and hell' give up those going into the lake of fire.
 

montana123

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Oct 9, 2021
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Do you believe that there are souls who have remained alive for the past 2000 years in graves waiting to be resurrected when Jesus returns? Wouldn't that be pure torture? I ask this because JESUS SAID if while you are alive you believe in HIM, you never die which would mean they would either have to go to heaven when their flesh body died or they would go alive into the grave with it.

Understand, I don't believe in a 'group' resurrection of saints pre trib. Then again, I don't believe in a 'group' of saints ever being resurrected again. (at this point anyhow). The group of 'saints' resurrected from the dead took place 2000 years ago (and with them 'gentiles' saved by hearing and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ) when the captivity was led captive...the graves opened...the dead heard His voice and if we believe Jesus died and rose, even so them because if the dead don't rise then Christ isn't risen.


The DEAD, those who didn't raise up when the saints did (2000 years ago), along with all those who have died in the past 2000 years without coming to faith before they died, will rise when Christ returns. Just or Unjust? we won't know for another 1000 years when THE DEAD stand in judgment before 'the sea, death and hell' give up those going into the lake of fire.
The Bible says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord so a saint that dies is with Jesus but they have not received their resurrected body yet.
 

Thewatchman

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Jun 19, 2021
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The Scripture you posted guarantees that raptured Believers are transformed into His Gloroified Likeness AFTER the Resurrection at His Second Coming.
Lets try once again to put this whole thing to rest.
For those who believe the body of Christ will go through the tribulation...

Question: What part of the body of Christ will go through the tribulation?
All of them that have not gone on to be with the Lord!
Lets see if we can not put this idea of a rapture to rest.
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Verse 37. Jesus sows the good seed. Verse 38. Pay attention when Jesus or God gives you an interpretation IT is interpreted. The field is the world! The good seed is not wheat it is “ The Children of God”; BUT the tares are not weeds or bad wheat NO they are the children of the wicked one. Who is the wicked one? Verse 39. The enemy is the devil. The harvest: What is going to get harvested? Wheat and tares? NO! Children, people, how many types of people are there? 2 and only 2 there are only to types of children (people) in the field (world) Know we come to the harvest, what is the harvest? The end of the world(the end of this earth age)and the reapers are the angles. Whose angles? We will find that out. Verse 40. What is gathered first ? The tares who are? The children of the evil one the devil, Satan. They are to be gathered and burned in the fire. When at the end of the world.



I want to stop here and ask a question? Has Jesus said anything about a secret gathering of wheat or children of The Kingdom, children of God? NO! So who is gathered first? The tares, the children of Satan, The children of the wicked one.



Verse 41 Jesus is not leaving this to any misinterpretation by man. The Son of Man: Who is that? Jesus Christ The Son of God not some man and where is it written in some book by some man? No It is written in the word of God. 42. And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43. Then shall the righteous (Strong's 1344 to render(i.e. Show or regard as) just or innocent:- free, be righteous) shin forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Do you have ears to hear what Jesus is teaching here?

There are only 2 choices for us; we can either follow Jesus and be children of God or we can follow Satan and be children of the wicked one. There is no middle of the road, there is no ½ in and ½ out that puts you in the camp of the evil one. The children of the wicked one Satan. There is no rapture, no secret gathering of the Saints, nothing that will offend; it will be perfect.
 

John146

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Lets try once again to put this whole thing to rest.

All of them that have not gone on to be with the Lord!
Lets see if we can not put this idea of a rapture to rest.
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Verse 37. Jesus sows the good seed. Verse 38. Pay attention when Jesus or God gives you an interpretation IT is interpreted. The field is the world! The good seed is not wheat it is “ The Children of God”; BUT the tares are not weeds or bad wheat NO they are the children of the wicked one. Who is the wicked one? Verse 39. The enemy is the devil. The harvest: What is going to get harvested? Wheat and tares? NO! Children, people, how many types of people are there? 2 and only 2 there are only to types of children (people) in the field (world) Know we come to the harvest, what is the harvest? The end of the world(the end of this earth age)and the reapers are the angles. Whose angles? We will find that out. Verse 40. What is gathered first ? The tares who are? The children of the evil one the devil, Satan. They are to be gathered and burned in the fire. When at the end of the world.



I want to stop here and ask a question? Has Jesus said anything about a secret gathering of wheat or children of The Kingdom, children of God? NO! So who is gathered first? The tares, the children of Satan, The children of the wicked one.



Verse 41 Jesus is not leaving this to any misinterpretation by man. The Son of Man: Who is that? Jesus Christ The Son of God not some man and where is it written in some book by some man? No It is written in the word of God. 42. And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43. Then shall the righteous (Strong's 1344 to render(i.e. Show or regard as) just or innocent:- free, be righteous) shin forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Do you have ears to hear what Jesus is teaching here?

There are only 2 choices for us; we can either follow Jesus and be children of God or we can follow Satan and be children of the wicked one. There is no middle of the road, there is no ½ in and ½ out that puts you in the camp of the evil one. The children of the wicked one Satan. There is no rapture, no secret gathering of the Saints, nothing that will offend; it will be perfect.
Actually, the Gentile church was a secret mystery revealed to the Apostle Paul. That's why you will not see mention of it in Matthew 24-25. Matthew is Jewish in content. What people fail to see is the possibility of two separate raptures; one for the Gentile bride and one for the Jews. Paul never warns of Jacob's trouble. We are not Jacob. The body of Christ has not replaced Israel. Until this is realized, there will be debates unending.
 

DavidTree

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Actually, the Gentile church was a secret mystery revealed to the Apostle Paul. That's why you will not see mention of it in Matthew 24-25. Matthew is Jewish in content. What people fail to see is the possibility of two separate raptures; one for the Gentile bride and one for the Jews. Paul never warns of Jacob's trouble. We are not Jacob. The body of Christ has not replaced Israel. Until this is realized, there will be debates unending.
There is no such thing as a 'Gentile church' in scripture.

You keep building lie upon lie of the Serpent = pre-trib rapture.

Read Romans, Galatians Ephesians and the Gospel of John and Acts.


KJV Romans ch9
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

God's Sovereign Choice

(Genesis 25:19-28; Malachi 1:1-5)

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

The Calling of the Gentiles

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Israel's Unbelief

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 

John146

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There is no such thing as a 'Gentile church' in scripture.

You keep building lie upon lie of the Serpent = pre-trib rapture.

Read Romans, Galatians Ephesians and the Gospel of John and Acts.


KJV Romans ch9
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

God's Sovereign Choice

(Genesis 25:19-28; Malachi 1:1-5)

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

The Calling of the Gentiles

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Israel's Unbelief

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
The mystery revealed to Paul is nowhere found in the gospels or OT books. It was a mystery from the beginning of the world kept hid until Paul. It’s not found in Matthew 24. The elect in Matthew 24 are Jews.
 

Beckie

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Actually, the Gentile church was a secret mystery revealed to the Apostle Paul. That's why you will not see mention of it in Matthew 24-25. Matthew is Jewish in content. What people fail to see is the possibility of two separate raptures; one for the Gentile bride and one for the Jews. Paul never warns of Jacob's trouble. We are not Jacob. The body of Christ has not replaced Israel. Until this is realized, there will be debates unending.
The body of Christ has not replaced Israel.
Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exo 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

He has one body, always had one body still has one Body . Moses, Noah, Job, Isaiah, David, John are a parts of His Body ,. As are the early church fathers, Billy Graham you and me.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
 

FreeGrace2

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Scripture proves that I am right.
Anyone can make this empty statement. Where are the verses that you think "prove that you are right"?

No doubt about it. Denying the obvious is the standard (and tragic) post-tribber bunker mentality.
Here are some facts for you to consider:

1. there is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 12:30, Luke 14:14 (Jesus used "resurrection" in the singular). It is never used in the plural. Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23 and Rev 20:5.
2. the ONE resurrection occurs "when He comes" a phrase that refers to the SECOND COMING or Advent. 1 Cor 15:23, 2 Thess 2:1
3. the ONE resurrection is described in Rev 20:5 and actually called the FIRST resurrection, the second one being for all the unbelievers.
Acts 24:15 and John 5:28,29.

All this proves that Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent, resurrects/changes all believers, ends the battle of Armegeddon, and sets up His Millennial reign.

Every verse is clear enough for elementary children to understand.

I've shown you mine. Now it your turn to show me yours. If you have any.

I mean, a verse that describes Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven.
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Facts that prove that NO resurrected believer is taken to heaven.
WHAT IS WRITTEN (facts) PROVES THAT RESURRECTED BELIEVERS ARE TAKEN TO HEAVEN

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Really? v.27 states that God owns all spirits/souls. They go to God WHEN they die, and God sends them to the proper waiting area.

Nothing here about resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Talking about the difference between mortal and immortal bodies. NOTHING about resurrected bodies being taken to heaven.

Did you forget what you were claiming to prove?

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
I see nothing about resurrected bodies. I DO see the souls of dead saints being given heavenly clothing to wear. btw, all of this is occurring DURING the first set of God's wrath on the earth IN the Tribulation.

Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
This is about all saints in heaven preparing to return with Christ at the Second Advent. Their bodies will be resurrected when Jesus comes to earth. 1 Cor 15:23.

OK, I'm getting tired. NONE of the verses above say ANYTHING about resurrection with a trip to heaven.

So I'm not going to continue with all the rest. I did read them and there were STILL no references to being resurrected and then taken to heaven.

So far, your score is still ZERO.
 

DavidTree

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The mystery revealed to Paul is nowhere found in the gospels or OT books. It was a mystery from the beginning of the world kept hid until Paul. It’s not found in Matthew 24. The elect in Matthew 24 are Jews.
Brother John, in the Love of Messiah HaMashiach set yourself free from the error of religion.

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2Which he had promised afore by his prophets(OT) in the holy scriptures,
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Romans 1:1-6 KJV

6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture(OT), foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Galatians 3:6-9 KJV

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Hebrews chs3-4 KJV
 

FreeGrace2

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For those who believe the body of Christ will go through the tribulation...

Question: What part of the body of Christ will go through the tribulation?
Question is not clear. By the time of the Tribulation, the VAST MAJORITY of the "body of Christ" will ALREADY be in heaven.
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible states that there will be ONE resurrection for the saved and ONE resurrection for the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
WHERE does that say 'and that will be all'?
1 Cor 15:23. In that ONE resurrection, "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected. "when He comes", which is the 2nd Advent.

Those MEN didn't believe IN CHRIST JESUS, DID THEY?
I don't know which "men" you are referring to here. Sorry.

Where does the bible say there will be JUST ONE resurrection for the saved and JUST ONE resurrection for the unsaved?
John 5;28,29 and Acts 24:15.

SAYING there is 'just one' etc. IS A CONCLUSION, it is NOT WRITTEN though you keep claiming it like it is, KNOWING IT IS NOT.
See above. 2 verses SAY it.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
If you can't count up to 2, then I guess I just can't help you. "a resurrection....BOTH of the saved and unsaved". That's real clear to me.

(A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD THAT IS A RESURRECTION OF BOTH JUST AND UNJUST, NOT SAVED AND UNSAVED, not one and one).
Biblically speaking, the word "just" means "justified ones" which are SAVED people. Justification in the sense of being in union with Christ. That is the basis of our justification.

So if you argue that "just and unjust" doesn't mean "saved and unsaved", well, that's just your problem.
 

John146

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Question is not clear. By the time of the Tribulation, the VAST MAJORITY of the "body of Christ" will ALREADY be in heaven.
So only a few parts of the body of Christ will have to endure the tribulation....while the rest of the body of Christ is with the Lord. Nope.
 

John146

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FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible states that there will be ONE resurrection for the saved and ONE resurrection for the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

1 Cor 15:23. In that ONE resurrection, "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected. "when He comes", which is the 2nd Advent.


I don't know which "men" you are referring to here. Sorry.


John 5;28,29 and Acts 24:15.


See above. 2 verses SAY it.


If you can't count up to 2, then I guess I just can't help you. "a resurrection....BOTH of the saved and unsaved". That's real clear to me.


Biblically speaking, the word "just" means "justified ones" which are SAVED people. Justification in the sense of being in union with Christ. That is the basis of our justification.

So if you argue that "just and unjust" doesn't mean "saved and unsaved", well, that's just your problem.
Are you stating that the resurrection is a one time event?