Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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FreeGrace2

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Yes i adhere to both of those

They both agree with the pretrib position.
The Bible disagrees with the pretrib position, because the Bible clearly teaches that there is ONE resurrection, which includes a gathering, primarily known as a rapture, which occurs at the Second Advent.

All the dead in christ are resurrected at the rapture.
The Bible teaches that Christ is the first fruits of resurrection, followed by, WHEN He comes, "those who belong to him", per 1 Cor 15:23.

That means ALL believers from Adam forward will be in that single resurrection of the "righteous", or saved.

Paul knew a whole lot more about end times events that you do.
 

FreeGrace2

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On top of that
...the rapture verses are all peacetime with life as normal.
Go ahead and quote a few, please. I'd like to see an actual rapture verse. And the context, of course.

Acts one says " Jesus returns in like manner".
Do you think the 2 angels were referring to some "peacetime" scenario there? No, they weren't. They were describing HOW He would return to earth at the Second Advent. On clouds. Just LIKE He left earth. He will come back the SAME WAY.

So Acts 1 doesn't support your theory.

Now if we test fit that into the post-trib Rapture model we need about half of the Earth's population destroyed no leaves on any trees, men that have huge lesions all over them, (from taking the mark), plus the Antichrist in power with everything looking like a desolate war Zone. We also would need none of the disciples able to buy or sell anything because they refused the mark which automatically would dictate that everybody would have the mark except those disciples and a handful of Jesus followers. So we begin to see the ridiculousness of some post tribulation rapture, when in fact, the angels said it would be the exact opposite scenery and dynamic.
"in LIKE MANNER" refers to the clouds.

You've got YOUR head in the clouds. Get grounded in the Word. Learn the Truth.
 

FreeGrace2

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It is very simple: John shows us that the marriage and supper will be in heaven.
No. The wording of v.7 and v.9 shows preparation FOR it. Not anything about it occurring in heaven.

Pretribbers sure have to lean leavily on assumption to come up with support for their theory.

When John writes "is come" it means RIGHT THEN, not later and somewhere else.
The preparation is come. That's what is occurring.

Explain v.9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Let me point something out to you. IF the wedding WAS occurring IN heaven, John would have written "blessed are those who were invited to the wedding."

Question: do you expect to STAND at the marriage supper? Oh, wait: you cannot GET THERE. Forget I ask.
Of course I'll be there. ALL believers from all time will be there.

Don't you know heaven will be emptied of all the believers who are now there? Up until the Second Advent?
 

Nehemiah6

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So we begin to see the ridiculousness of some post tribulation rapture
Correct. Ridiculous and absurd would be appropriate for any fantasy about a post-tribulation Rapture. But God does not deal in absurdities.
 

Jocund

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Correct. Ridiculous and absurd would be appropriate for any fantasy about a post-tribulation Rapture. But God does not deal in absurdities.
You may have stumbled across an absurd variant of post-trib rapture, but post-trib rapture in itself is not absurd.

I have yet to see a concise explanation for pretrib rapture that does not rely on unnecessary assumptions.
 

Nehemiah6

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I have yet to see a concise explanation for pretrib rapture that does not rely on unnecessary assumptions.
So let's start by you telling us exactly what is the purpose of the Rapture. Why is there a Resurrection/Rapture?
 

FreeGrace2

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Jocund said:
I have yet to see a concise explanation for pretrib rapture that does not rely on unnecessary assumptions.
So let's start by you telling us exactly what is the purpose of the Rapture. Why is there a Resurrection/Rapture?
So, 2 questions, really.

The purpose of the rapture, or the better word is "gathering", used both in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2:1 and both noted to be at the Second Advent (post trib), is to include all the remaining and living believers with all the dead saints in receiving their glorified, or resurrection bodies.

We know that this occurs in a single event, since Scripture plainly says so.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

How many resurrections are seen in this verse?

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

How many resurrections are seen in this verse regarding the saved (righteous)?

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Red words refer to the Second Advent. Blue words refer to every believer from Adam forward.

Why is Jesus' resurrection described as "firstfruits"? Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red words refer to the Second Advent. Blue words refer to the "rapture". They occur together.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life (resurrection) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

These 2 verses speak about the martyrs of the Tribulation, who are resurrected (came to life) so they could "reign with Christ". v.5 ends with a description of this resurrection: "this is the FIRST resurrection.

Recalling Acts 24:15 that refers to a single resurrection of the saved and a single resurrection of the unsaved, we KNOW that Rev 20:5 is the ONLY resurrection for the saved, which is why it is called the FIRST one.

Pretribbers are forced to believe that the saved are resurrected in "waves", "stages" or "series".

Yet, all these verses prove that there is only ONE resurrection for the saved. All believers (those who belong to Him - 1 Cor 15:23) will be resurrected/gathered when Jesus Christ comes back at the Second Advent.

I can be proved wrong IF these verses are properly exegeted to PROVE that they don't mean what I say they mean.

Please proceed.
 

Charlie24

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Jocund said:
I have yet to see a concise explanation for pretrib rapture that does not rely on unnecessary assumptions.

So, 2 questions, really.

The purpose of the rapture, or the better word is "gathering", used both in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2:1 and both noted to be at the Second Advent (post trib), is to include all the remaining and living believers with all the dead saints in receiving their glorified, or resurrection bodies.

We know that this occurs in a single event, since Scripture plainly says so.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

How many resurrections are seen in this verse?

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

How many resurrections are seen in this verse regarding the saved (righteous)?

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Red words refer to the Second Advent. Blue words refer to every believer from Adam forward.

Why is Jesus' resurrection described as "firstfruits"? Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red words refer to the Second Advent. Blue words refer to the "rapture". They occur together.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life (resurrection) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

These 2 verses speak about the martyrs of the Tribulation, who are resurrected (came to life) so they could "reign with Christ". v.5 ends with a description of this resurrection: "this is the FIRST resurrection.

Recalling Acts 24:15 that refers to a single resurrection of the saved and a single resurrection of the unsaved, we KNOW that Rev 20:5 is the ONLY resurrection for the saved, which is why it is called the FIRST one.

Pretribbers are forced to believe that the saved are resurrected in "waves", "stages" or "series".

Yet, all these verses prove that there is only ONE resurrection for the saved. All believers (those who belong to Him - 1 Cor 15:23) will be resurrected/gathered when Jesus Christ comes back at the Second Advent.

I can be proved wrong IF these verses are properly exegeted to PROVE that they don't mean what I say they mean.

Please proceed.
The problems with the post-trib resurrection are considerable! Here's just one.

If the resurrection takes place at the Second Coming and all the saved are translated as Paul said, receiving their Glorified bodies, how is Isa. 65:20-25 fulfilled?

The Millennial reign of Christ begins and life goes on as Isaiah said, with children being born, etc.

If the pre-trib theory is looked at, Christ raptures the church with tribulation for 7 years and comes back at the Second Coming and those saved during the tribulation and still alive will be in their natural bodies along with the Jews to fulfill Isaiah's prophecy. This would be impossible in the post-trib theory.
 

Jocund

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So let's start by you telling us exactly what is the purpose of the Rapture. Why is there a Resurrection/Rapture?
I don't think rapture is particularly important. "Meeting up in cloud" can easily be a description of a transition step between earth and new earth at the end of Rev 20.

The resurrection on the other hand is a very important part of scripture.

"And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." - Luke 20:34-36 KJV

"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain." - 1 Corinthians 15:12-14 KJV

The resurrection is fundamental to the faith. The belief in a particular rapture model is not. Many try to pull in 1 Cor 15's reference to the final trump as the seventh trumpet. This isn't necessarily the same thing. We see descriptions of God's voice being like a trumpet. Why would we rule out the possibility that the final trump is God's voice?

The idea of living people flying up into the air during or before the tribulation doesn't seem to be supported explicitly through scripture.

Now your turn, make your case for why it is necessarily the case that a literal rapture of living people occurs prior to the resurrection.
 

ewq1938

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Ridiculous and absurd would be appropriate for any fantasy about a post-tribulation Rapture. But God does not deal in absurdities.
That applies only to pre-trib.

Ridiculous and absurd would be appropriate for any fantasy about a pre-tribulation Rapture which they think Apostasia is a reference to. God does not deal in absurdities.
 

Charlie24

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I don't think rapture is particularly important. "Meeting up in cloud" can easily be a description of a transition step between earth and new earth at the end of Rev 20.

The resurrection on the other hand is a very important part of scripture.

"And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." - Luke 20:34-36 KJV

"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain." - 1 Corinthians 15:12-14 KJV

The resurrection is fundamental to the faith. The belief in a particular rapture model is not. Many try to pull in 1 Cor 15's reference to the final trump as the seventh trumpet. This isn't necessarily the same thing. We see descriptions of God's voice being like a trumpet. Why would we rule out the possibility that the final trump is God's voice?

The idea of living people flying up into the air during or before the tribulation doesn't seem to be supported explicitly through scripture.

Now your turn, make your case for why it is necessarily the case that a literal rapture of living people occurs prior to the resurrection.
The Rapture of the pre-trib theory is necessary for life to continue on earth during the Millennial reign of Christ, and forever!

If all are translated into their glorified body at the Second Coming, as the post-trib teaches, there are no natural bodies of mortal man left for reproduction. The glorified body in not mortal but immortal.
 

Jocund

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The problems with the post-trib resurrection are considerable! Here's just one.

If the resurrection takes place at the Second Coming and all the saved are translated as Paul said, receiving their Glorified bodies, how is Isa. 65:20-25 fulfilled?

The Millennial reign of Christ begins and life goes on as Isaiah said, with children being born, etc.

If the pre-trib theory is looked at, Christ raptures the church with tribulation for 7 years and comes back at the Second Coming and those saved during the tribulation and still alive will be in their natural bodies along with the Jews to fulfill Isaiah's prophecy. This would be impossible in the post-trib theory.
Considering Isa. 65:20-25 is about new earth and new heaven referenced in Rev 21, I don't understand where you interpreted that passage to take place. And since in glorified bodies there are no marriages, it follows that there would be no children being born either (at least through conventional means).

Here's a thought for you. What if all the believers died and entered heaven after death? What stops that interpretation as opposed to a physical rapture of living people prior to the resurrection?

Christ raptures the church with tribulation for 7 years and comes back at the Second Coming
Are you saying Christ comes a second time, leaves for 7 years and then returns? Is that a Third Coming?

and those saved during the tribulation and still alive will be in their natural bodies
Which passages would support this interpretation?
 

Jocund

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The Rapture of the pre-trib theory is necessary for life to continue on earth during the Millennial reign of Christ, and forever!

If all are translated into their glorified body at the Second Coming, as the post-trib teaches, there are no natural bodies of mortal man left for reproduction. The glorified body in not mortal but immortal.
1 Cor 15:51-52 tells us that at the time that the dead are raised imperishable that we will also be changed. No one in Christ would have a mortal body at that time.
 

Charlie24

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Considering Isa. 65:20-25 is about new earth and new heaven referenced in Rev 21, I don't understand where you interpreted that passage to take place. And since in glorified bodies there are no marriages, it follows that there would be no children being born either (at least through conventional means).

Here's a thought for you. What if all the believers died and entered heaven after death? What stops that interpretation as opposed to a physical rapture of living people prior to the resurrection?



Are you saying Christ comes a second time, leaves for 7 years and then returns? Is that a Third Coming?



Which passages would support this interpretation?
There will be believers on earth at the Second Coming. If you read Matt. 26:31-46, when He comes He places the sheep to His right hand and the goats to His left.

The sheep are welcomed into His Kingdom and the goats are assigned everlasting fire, vs.41.

This is proof there is no post-trib resurrection of the Church saints, they must remain in their natural mortal bodies for life on earth to continue.

Isaiah says that during this time the average life of man will be 100 years, the lion will eat straw as an ox, etc. This is possible because the King of Kings the Lord of Lords is now dwelling on earth, there is peace with even the animals no longer killing one another.
 

Jocund

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There will be believers on earth at the Second Coming. If you read Matt. 26:31-46, when He comes He places the sheep to His right hand and the goats to His left.

The sheep are welcomed into His Kingdom and the goats are assigned everlasting fire, vs.41.

This is proof there is no post-trib resurrection of the Church saints, they must remain in their natural mortal bodies for life on earth to continue.

Isaiah says that during this time the average life of man will be 100 years, the lion will eat straw as an ox, etc. This is possible because the King of Kings the Lord of Lords is now dwelling on earth, there is peace with even the animals no longer killing one another.
Why would you assume that Matthew 25:31-46 is talking about the kingdom of the 1000 reign as opposed to the kingdom of New Jerusalem? Why would you assume that the sheep and goats parable isn't about the reading from the book of life at the end of Rev 20?

1 Cor 15 is fairly explicit that at the time of the resurrection, everyone in Christ changes to their immortal form. At the resurrection, there are no instances of "some" of those in Christ being mortal and "some" not.

no post-trib resurrection of the Church saints, they must remain in their natural mortal bodies for life on earth to continue.
If your argument was that there was no resurrection or change of nonChristians at the first resurrection and therefore a continuation of mortals on earth, I might explore that concept. But you are presenting the opposite idea. Opposite of what scripture says. Specifically in regards to Rev 20:4-6 talking about Christian martyrs and those that didn't take the mark of the beast.

I don't see any reason to suggest that any mortal humans necessarily existed on earth during that time.

Isaiah says that during this time the average life of man will be 100 years
"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." - Isaiah 65:20 KJV

This doesn't say anything about the average life of men being 100, only that if a figurative person were to die at age 100 they would be considered a child by age. This doesn't mean that there will be any 100 year olds that would die, the phrasing only operates as a comparison. Not even a 100 year old in Noah's time would have been considered a child, and those individuals lived almost to the 1000 year mark.
 

Charlie24

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Why would you assume that Matthew 25:31-46 is talking about the kingdom of the 1000 reign as opposed to the kingdom of New Jerusalem? Why would you assume that the sheep and goats parable isn't about the reading from the book of life at the end of Rev 20?

1 Cor 15 is fairly explicit that at the time of the resurrection, everyone in Christ changes to their immortal form. At the resurrection, there are no instances of "some" of those in Christ being mortal and "some" not.



If your argument was that there was no resurrection or change of nonChristians at the first resurrection and therefore a continuation of mortals on earth, I might explore that concept. But you are presenting the opposite idea. Opposite of what scripture says. Specifically in regards to Rev 20:4-6 talking about Christian martyrs and those that didn't take the mark of the beast.

I don't see any reason to suggest that any mortal humans necessarily existed on earth during that time.



"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." - Isaiah 65:20 KJV

This doesn't say anything about the average life of men being 100, only that if a figurative person were to die at age 100 they would be considered a child by age. This doesn't mean that there will be any 100 year olds that would die, the phrasing only operates as a comparison. Not even a 100 year old in Noah's time would have been considered a child, and those individuals lived almost to the 1000 year mark.
 

Charlie24

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1 Cor 15:51-52 tells us that at the time that the dead are raised imperishable that we will also be changed. No one in Christ would have a mortal body at that time.
If that resurrection took place at His Second Coming, All would be immortal and how could Isaiah's prophesy be fulfilled?

Where would the mortal body be found? But on the other hand, the rapture provides a gap of 7 years for the saved during the tribulation who did not die, they will have the natural bodies. They will fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah.
 

ewq1938

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If that resurrection took place at His Second Coming, All would be immortal and how could Isaiah's prophesy be fulfilled?

Where would the mortal body be found? But on the other hand, the rapture provides a gap of 7 years for the saved during the tribulation who did not die, they will have the natural bodies. They will fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah.
In the thousand years the immortal saints rule over mortals.
 

Charlie24

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In the thousand years the immortal saints rule over mortals.
I'm happy to see that someone realizes there are mortal and immortal on earth at this time.

I was beginning to think I was the only one! Good observation!
 

ewq1938

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I'm happy to see that someone realizes there are mortal and immortal on earth at this time.

I was beginning to think I was the only one! Good observation!

I'm Pre-mill and that is a standard understanding in that doctrine.