Jesus didn't come to separate the old and new covenants.

[Kaycie]

I don't claim that God changed. He does the same thing, just in the old t (testament) He did things physically, and in the new t He does those same things spiritually. If God had a different plan for Joseph than He did for Moses, does that mean He changed? Of course not. I do live on every word from God. I live knowing how we were created, the history of God's people, and have a better understanding of the spiritual things in the new t by the physical shadow of them from the old testament. (Colossians 2:17). But a shadow is not the real thing, it is only evidence of the real thing- which we now have. And when the real thing comes, the imperfect thing disappears. (1 Corinthians 13:10) Jesus fulfilled the old law for us and nailed it to the cross. (Colossians 2:14). 2 Timothy 2:15 says we need to rightly divide the word of truth (bible- old testament and new testament). We are not under Moses' laws, we are now under the laws of Christ, and we cannot be under both at the same time (Romans 7:1-6).

 

[dcontroversal]

So many posts, so little time!

To be clear, I never said I didn't believe in progressive revelation nor did I say that it is not linear. I said, "I don't think the progression is as linear as one might try to posit." Of course, God reveals more over time and this is added to our body of knowledge about a particular subject. EDIT: When I first wrote this post, I went into a long description of what "linear" means, using examples of linear equations in mathematics and talking about a constant rate of change over time, how some prophets expand our knowledge greatly and others only provide a smaller bit of new information, how some statements are clearer and others less clear, etc. But I realized that this has almost nothing to do with our discussion, so I deleted it.

The main point I was getting at is this: Progressive revelation over time does not mean that the earlier revealed knowledge is inferior, of less quality or of less authority. It's an ever-increasing body of knowledge which makes up the whole truth of the matter. You give a great example of an ever-increasing understanding revealed about the Messiah. But notice, the later knowledge doesn't make any of the earlier knowledge false. E.g., Gabriel telling Joseph to name his son Jesus doesn't change what God revealed to Eve about her offspring crushing the head of that old serpent.

I will also make a claim (not a statement of fact) that while later information is more clear in many cases, that doesn't universally mean that all earlier knowledge is less clear (or at least not in terms of presentation) or that clear statements or lessons can't be drawn from earlier knowledge. E.g., sometimes God speaks very clearly early in the OT, and at other times a certain epistle can contain a puzzling allegory. This gets to what john832 was saying about some of the "plain" teachings of Jesus. Personally, I believe that the Messiah is the ultimate revelation of God to mankind. In Him was fully abundant Spirit, perfect love, perfect obedience, and so forth. The Son is the radiant glory of the Father made manifest and the perfect expression of His being. This, if anything else, should lead us to take His words very seriously.


Yes, the Holy Spirit revealed "deep truths" to the disciples/apostles, that which the Messiah could not share at the time of His earthly ministry. And the revelations of the Holy Spirit to them, as is all the Word contained in the Scriptures, are the words of the Messiah. Here's the problem I see with how some people apply progressive revelation: They start with the NT epistles and make it their foundation. I believe one should start with the basics, so to speak. Learn what God has said and established as truth through His direct voice, through His early prophets, through the Messiah, and then the NT epistles. If it was given in a progression, follow the progression. Start with the algebra before jumping to the calculus. Isn't this the method that God set up? I thought early on He said trust My words and test the message of any future prophet against them, and if the prophet speaks against My words, then He is a false prophet (Deut. 13, et al.). This includes testing our own interpretations. Personally, I also believe in the concept of multiple witnesses establishing truth, which requires a wider lens when looking at the Scriptures.

The point is not that progressive revelation voids and or makes the beginning of that progression wrong or false, but that some progression of knowledge and understanding completes and or finishes the original lines of thought.....for example.....

What was the purpose of the sacrifices under the law?
What did the sacrifices point to?
Was the picture of the sacrifices fulfilled in Christ?

The end result question is.........

If the progressive revelation of the sacrificial system, priesthood were fulfilled in Christ does this not prove that sometimes the end result of what has been revealed in the N.T. and what has happened in the N.T. supercedes, finishes and or overrides what has taken place in the O.T. without undermining the validity of the beginning of said progressive revelation?

Christ is the end of the LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS unto those who believe.......!

 

[MyLighthouse]

39 of the 66 books in the Bible are Old Testament. Without the Old Testament we would not have the New Testament. You can not fully grasp the Gospel, if you only feel roughly 30% percent is profitable, the whole 100% is. It does say EVERY WORD, and it does say ALL SCRIPTURE. What scripture did the apostle have back then? I do believe the New Testament was still in progress. There are still scriptures in the OT that hasn't been fulfilled.

“Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. [SUP] [/SUP]Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened." Matthew 5:17,18

Yet most like to ignore the OT because it conflicts with many Gentile and/or Catholic influenced beliefs and doctrines....

 

[Brother_Don]

Malachi 2:8, Malachi 2:17, Malachi 3:1, Malachi 3:6.

 

[john832]

So it is applicable for you to

1. Build an ark when it rains?

Show me a command to build an ark when it rains.

2. Do you grow a garden and do you give 10% of everything to your preacher

I do tithe on my increase.

3. Do you sacrifice once a year at the temple

Being able to rightly divide the Word of Truth, I understand that Christ is now the sacrifice. As Heb 10 plainly shows, those sacrifices were pointing to Christ. They were a schoolmaster to show us Christ's sacrifice but once faith has come, we need not continually sacrifice.

4. Have you been circumcised and is every male in your family circumcised the 8th day

I was circumcised on September 26, 1970. Rom 2:29

5. HAs your house been cleared of all leaven for the upcoming Passover

We do that EVERY year prior to the Days of Unleavened Bread. I Cor 5:7-8

6. Do you fast on a regular basis.

Yes, just as Jesus commanded us. Mat 9:15, Mark 2:20, Luke 5:35

7. Do you travel once a year to Israel..to Jerusalem to worship
and on and on and on.......

Nope, I go to where God has placed His name. Deut 12, 14, 16 I have kept God's Feast Days since 1969.

Not everything written IS APPLICABLE in our AGE and TIME FRAME

You are very correct here, the Aaronic Priesthood is not functioning currently, we are under the Melchisedec Priesthood.

So I will ask again....

Does everything written in the bible apply unto you JOHN?

Let's turn this around and ask this...

Do you just summarily dismiss the instruction of God because someone told you it was done away? Especially in light of this direct statement of the One we worship...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

By your answer above you seen to indicate yes......

I will add.....WHEN was MALACHI written, who did it apply to, how many years before JESUS came on the scene and under which Covenant was it lumped?

You seem to think that Malachi is old news and should be dismissed...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

This is still in the future.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

We are reading of events that occur AFTER Rev 20:15 here.

Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

Interestingly enough, this is sandwiched into writings of the future.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

This is coming up in just a short period of time.

The 7 or 8 assertions found therein...are you guilty of any of them.....

Do you tithe under the law.....?
10 percent off the top to the priests (preacher) and anything over that an offering......

Uh, I think that we see that I do obey. As far as tithing, yes, I tithe and have been blessed enormously for it...

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

I can personally attest that God does open the windows of heaven but then, I was willing to put my money where my mouth was to prove it.

My question for you now would be for you to answer the same questions and explain why or why not you don't do what God says to.

 

[john832]

Either God inspired the writers or not....
Either the words are equal in weight and or authority or not....
To deny progressive revelation of the word is to reject the word and what Christ spoke about deeper truths to be given to his disciples but not ready to be received by his disciples and does a disservice to the latter revelations of the word
No one, including me has said the words of JESUS are not for us
There is no contradiction when one understand that Christ was under the law until the New Covenant was ratified by his death

So it is applicable for you to

1. Build an ark when it rains?
2. Do you grow a garden and do you give 10% of everything to your preacher
3. Do you sacrifice once a year at the temple
4. Have you been circumcised and is every male in your family circumcised the 8th day
5. HAs your house been cleared of all leaven for the upcoming Passover
6. Do you fast on a regular basis.
7. Do you travel once a year to Israel..to Jerusalem to worship
and on and on and on.......

Not everything written IS APPLICABLE in our AGE and TIME FRAME

So I will ask again....

Does everything written in the bible apply unto you JOHN?

By your answer above you seen to indicate yes......

I will add.....WHEN was MALACHI written, who did it apply to, how many years before JESUS came on the scene and under which Covenant was it lumped?

The 7 or 8 assertions found therein...are you guilty of any of them.....

Do you tithe under the law.....?
10 percent off the top to the priests (preacher) and anything over that an offering......

So you believe the epistles are inspired and should be obeyed but there are thirty nine books that should be ripped out?

 

[john832]

Either God inspired the writers or not....
Either the words are equal in weight and or authority or not....
To deny progressive revelation of the word is to reject the word and what Christ spoke about deeper truths to be given to his disciples but not ready to be received by his disciples and does a disservice to the latter revelations of the word
No one, including me has said the words of JESUS are not for us
There is no contradiction when one understand that Christ was under the law until the New Covenant was ratified by his death

39 of the 66 books in the Bible are Old Testament. Without the Old Testament we would not have the New Testament. You can not fully grasp the Gospel, if you only feel roughly 30% percent is profitable, the whole 100% is. It does say EVERY WORD, and it does say ALL SCRIPTURE. What scripture did the apostle have back then? I do believe the New Testament was still in progress. There are still scriptures in the OT that hasn't been fulfilled.

“Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened." Matthew 5:17,18

Yet most like to ignore the OT because it conflicts with many Gentile and/or Catholic influenced beliefs and doctrines....

Excellent insight.

 

[john832]

I believe so. He made the Word, that is the Gospel of Christ, the New Testament alive, Hebrews 4:12, 1 peter 1:23, it is the sword of the spirit Ephesians 6:17. It goes into your heart, according to the parable of the soils, hence the saying I will write My laws upon their hearts and upon their minds I will place them.

So, the New Testament is the gospel but it is separate from the Old Testament? OK...

Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[john832]

Override? They are in agreement.

All NT Scripture is God-breathed and is the statement of Jesus Christ.

And keeping in mind that Jesus' revelation in the gospels was given before his death, under the old covenant and its laws,
and is not as full as the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers, while the epistles were given after his death and inauguration in his blood of the new covenant ministry.

All Scripture must be understod in the light of the new covenant inaugurated after his death.

NO, all scripture must be understood in the light of all scripture. It all must harmonize...

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

I am not willing to disregard ANY scripture.

 

[john832]

The covenant of the rainbow benefits all mankind, not just those in Christ.

The covenant with David is to David only, and is fulfilled.

Which Covenant? This one?

Mar 11:9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:
Mar 11:10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

Hasn't happened yet...

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Christ has not returned and is not currently ruling on the throne of David.


[qutoe]The Mosaic covenant with Israel is available to no one today, it is obsolete (Heb 8:13).

That leaves only the Abrahamic covenant's unconditional promise of the heavenly city of God
(Heb 11:14-16), received through faith, to which all those in Jesus Christ are heirs.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm, and yet Christ comes back to earth and so does the Father. The Kingdom of God is established on earth at the return of Christ.

 

[john832]

It really shocks me to hear someone say that Jesus' words in the gospel are more important than Jesus' words in the epistles!

What shocks me even more is to hear someone say the words of those in the epistles is more important than the words of Christ in the gospels.

 

[john832]

Just how mysterious is this statement?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

that too complicated?

Yes, that was God's Mosaic law in force at that time.

Jesus was not in a position, prior to his atoning death, to reveal that no one could meet
that condition for eternal life because of the Law's condemnation of imperfect obedience.

So help us out here, was the statement Christ made true or false? Are you saying that what Christ said was under the Old Covenant and no null and void?

Again, another person who would teach that the epistles negate the plain teachings of Christ. You are telling people that we must not listen to Christ but rather to Paul. You are negating Christ's teachings here.

How about this one...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Really, really difficult to understand?

Yes, that was God's Mosaic law in force at that time.

Jesus was not in a position, prior to his atoning death, to reveal that no one could meet
that condition for eternal life because of the Law's condemnation of imperfect obedience.


So in the new covenant, eternal life is by one's law-keeping?

I'll let John answer that...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

What does this plainly say? It says those who KEEP the Commandments have a right to the tree of Life.

Even though this is not from one of Paul's epistles, I still believe it is truth.

Selective quoting. . .omitting Mt 22:37-40.

So, quoting Christ is selective quoting? Well, you will see me "selectively" quoting for the rest of my life because I believe this with all my heart...

Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Jesus Christ spoke the Words of eternal life. You don't have to agree but it is in your best interest to do so.

 

[pem]

What shocks me even more is to hear someone say the words of those in the epistles is more important than the words of Christ in the gospels.

Every word is Gods Word .

To love God and neighbour is the TOTAL Law for a Christian .

 

[prove-all]

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

.

yes a better covent(eternal heratage, be sons and daughters)

yes a more excellent ministry(changed priesthood)

yes a mediator, between God and man, Christ Jesus, the word who was with him by his side.

and a down payment,to be heirs, with the help of Gods power to do his will with pleasure.


lovely better promises, from loving father, also he



puts (his) laws now in our hearts to do his will,

as all knee will bow before him, wise to listen now ,

but we should never claim by our works, he moves us to do them

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Something to consider

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

[just-me]

Every word is Gods Word .

To love God and neighbour is the TOTAL Law for a Christian .

The instructions of how to love are written in the Old Covenant. See Leviticus 19:11-18 and Deuteronomy 6:1-6, 13:1-3 and 30:6

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The instructions of how to love are written in the Old Covenant. See Leviticus 19:11-18 and Deuteronomy 6:1-6, 13:1-3 and 30:6

Those are not instructions on how to love,

Those are the results of loving someone.

If I say 2 plus 2 equals 4. the number 4 is not the instructions on how I got there. it is the result.

Just because I do not cheat my neighbor or rob him does not mean I love him, I just may not see anything I like to take from him.

yet I am still obeying the law in those commands

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Was there a "mystery", i.e. "secret" that was hid from other generations and revealed to Paul through revelation of Jesus Christ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Something to consider

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The law will never fail, It will continue to prove our sin, and our need for Christ, and as long as their are people who need the schoolmaster to lead them to Christ, it will remain.

It will never show us how to be righteous, or how to love someone as God loved us, To find this out, we look at How God gave love to mankind, Not to the law.

 

[royalscot]

what view point is one standing in.
jewish v gentiles.

two different ministries
.7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles),9

14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

of the two ministries who was still under the full law of moses, given there was still a temple of stone, in place at the time of writing these letters. (act 15)

would this be an other way of saying, both jewish and gentile, who believe in jesus christ, as a saviour.


27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.