Jesus Is His Own Father

[MahogonySnail]

If God needed to become man, He had to humble Himself

God (the Father) did not become a man, He sent the Son to become a Man. This distinction between God the Father who sent, and the Son who became, is clearly evident throughout the new testament: eg. see the verse describing the apointment or ordaining of a man, not the becoming of a man. The distinctions between God and the man, the Son, are clear. I don't think there is one verse in the bible that says "God(the Father) became a Man"

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses wasfaithful in all his house.
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Now you might quote this verse:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
..and say that well it says God was manifest in the flesh, therefore the Father must be Jesus.

That is absolutely incorrect. If we look to 1 John 3:8, it tells us who the "God" is in 1 Ti 3:16:

"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested"

So we see it was the Son of God who was manifested, not the Father.

If we go right back to the old testament, the Father sending the Son to be sacrificed for us is the same thing as what Abraham (who represents the father) did with Isaac on the altar.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Further proof that Jesus is not the Father. 1 John 4:12 says, no man hath seen God at any time:
1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Therefore Jesus must not be the Father. The Father is unseen (in secret);

Mat 6:18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

Again, it says no one has seen God at any time, but the Son, who is in the bosom of the Father (not is the Father), has revealed Him:
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. \

Based on these passages alone, the Father cannot be the Son and vice versa. The Son is the revelation of the Father, but is not the Father Himself. The Son is seen, but the Father is unseen and no man has seen the father.

If the Son and the Father were the same, these verses would not say that no one has seen God (the Father) at any time - because obviously Jesus was seen by many.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

God cannot be divided, so He cannot be 3 seperate personalities.

1 Cor. 8:4-6

"and there is none other than God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or earth, as there be gods many and lords many. But to us there is but one God - The Father of Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ by Whom are all things, and we in by Him. How be it there is not in every man that knowledge."

Well where is the 'third member'? There is only one Theos and one Kurios, and Lord God is Kurios Theos.

The Father is all things, but we had a fallen creation in need of salvation which can only be achieved by God who is the Saviour in Kurios Iesus Christos by Whom are all things. Thats the physical manifestation of God in the material realm, how can it be that you see the Father? You cannot only can be seen is the Lord Jesus Christ, you cannot see the Father it is impossible but the Son as Jesus says to Phillip "he who has seen Me has seen the Father", "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me"...I mean how else can Jesus answer?

Here the Lord is come down off His throne in Heaven to a fallen creature and puts on their sinful flesh, and you want Him to say 'yes you are looking directly on the Father, there is no Father in Heaven only a Me as a human being in your filthy flesh'! Jesus cannot say that, what is the prayer "Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy Name' that was Jesus' prayer and thank God it was so because otherwise we all would be rotting in Hell right now, what is the Name by which men are saved, 'Jesus Christ' there is only one name, I mean how else can he answer?

 

[watchmen]

Jesus is God, the Son

There is no such person as God the Son nor God the Holy Spirit but only God the Father, the Son of God and the Spirit of God.

 

[watchmen]

This might help:

It really doesn't

 

[watchmen]

God (the Father) did not become a man, He sent the Son to become a Man.

This is absolutely wrong. The Son is the man God the Father became.

 

[watchmen]

Now you might quote this verse:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
..and say that well it says God was manifest in the flesh, therefore the Father must be Jesus.

That is absolutely incorrect. If we look to 1 John 3:8, it tells us who the "God" is in 1 Ti 3:16:

"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested"

So we see it was the Son of God who was manifested, not the Father.

If we go right back to the old testament, the Father sending the Son to be sacrificed for us is the same thing as what Abraham (who represents the father) did with Isaac on the altar.

The Father was manifested as the Son.

 

[MahogonySnail]

This is absolutely wrong. The Son is the man God the Father became.

That's a heresy because it denies the pre-incarnate existance of the Son with God who was before Abraham. God created the earth through the Son. The Son was there in the beginning when God said let us .(plural)..

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

That's a heresy because it denies the pre-incarnate existance of the Son with God who was before Abraham. God created the earth through the Son. The Son was there in the beginning when God said let us .(plural)..

'Let us' is not defining plural gods, there are not 2 gods or three, there is only one, being that 'let us' refers to the divine purpose and mission, as the angels did witness the creation of the world and man, then in their likeness also, thus God would say seeming He is not alone - 'let us' as the divine purpose of the Heavenly host with the Lord of Hosts.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Two persons of the Trinity are even seen as far back as :

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Two persons of the Trinity are even seen as far back as :

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

'2 Persons of the Trinity'...So the 'Spirit of God' is a third like 33.33333etc??? Do you understand that God cannot be divided if He is divided, He cannot be God without peers, otherwise He has equal peers, two in fact according to Trinitarians. Read the scriptures, what does it say:

"These things saith He That hath the seven Spirits of God, and seven stars" Rev 3:1

So which spirit was was on the face of the waters, because Jesus Christ has seven and He created the heaven and earth by His word?

God is infinite, He isn't a 'trinity' its ridiculous, illogical, beyond reason, inconceivable, He does not have 3 parts, 'in the days of His flesh', 'offering up prayers' 'though He was a Son yet learned obedience by the things that He suffered', dosen't the Book of Hebrews explain all this.

"For making a promise to Abraham God swore by Himself (sinse He could swear by none greater)"

And then the 'King of Righteousness' of 'the high Preist of Mechisedek' hath neith mother or father or end of days but 'resembling the Son of God'!

To me it is very straightforward and easy to understand - Jesus is what He says He is the "I AM" who tasted death in 'his days of His flesh' for everybody, He died for everybody, in the flesh and then ressurected. as the first fruits, because by Christ all is made.

 

[stillearning]

Still Learning,

Your name is appropriate. Just do us all a favor. Stop posting error. Learn the truth.

Your logic is seriously flawed. What you have established with your line of reason is not that Jesus is His own Father, but that both He and the Father are deity. This is part of the evidence for the godhead (aka, trinity).

I pray that you are teachable as well are not we all STILLEARNING??? DO not DENY His Word because if you do He will deny you.

I do not base my beliefe on logic at all. I believe our Father clothed Himself in flesh and dwelt among us as the Mighty Word. I believe our Father clothed in flesh as the Son died for our transgressions and redeemed man from sin. I believe He rose from the grave that could not hold Him.
I believe the Jesus is God Almighty!!
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.(Prophecy).
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.(Isaiah 7:14 prophecy fulfilled).
Isa 40:3 ¶ The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.(Prophecy).
Jhn 1:23 He said, I [am] the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.(Isaiah 40:3 prophecy fulfilled).
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Prophecy).
Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.(Isaiah 45:23 prophecy referring to Jesus).
Isa 44:6 ¶ Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.
Isa 48:12 ¶ Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I [am] he; I [am] the first, I also [am] the last.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

 

[MahogonySnail]

'2 Persons of the Trinity'...So the 'Spirit of God' is a third like 33.33333etc??? Do you understand that God cannot be divided if He is divided, He cannot be God without peers, otherwise He has equal peers, two in fact according to Trinitarians. Read the scriptures, what does it say:

"These things saith He That hath the seven Spirits of God, and seven stars" Rev 3:1

So which spirit was was on the face of the waters, because Jesus Christ has seven and He created the heaven and earth by His word?

God is infinite, He isn't a 'trinity' its ridiculous, illogical, beyond reason, inconceivable, He does not have 3 parts, 'in the days of His flesh', 'offering up prayers' 'though He was a Son yet learned obedience by the things that He suffered', dosen't the Book of Hebrews explain all this.

"For making a promise to Abraham God swore by Himself (sinse He could swear by none greater)"

And then the 'King of Righteousness' of 'the high Preist of Mechisedek' hath neith mother or father or end of days but 'resembling the Son of God'!

To me it is very straightforward and easy to understand - Jesus is what He says He is the "I AM" who tasted death in 'his days of His flesh' for everybody, He died for everybody, in the flesh and then ressurected. as the first fruits, because by Christ all is made.

Trinitarians do not deny these things, but confusing the Father with the Son is a grave error indeed, and results in weird interpretationsi of many verses that mention both the Father and the Son, not to mention confuses what actually happened on the cross. The Son died on the cross, not the Father. The Son died on the cross and cried out to the Father, "why have you forsaken me". Can God forsake Himself? Can the Father cry out to Himself in heaven and say why have I forsaken myself? No, it makes no sense at all.

I pray that you are teachable as well are not we all STILLEARNING??? DO not DENY His Word because if you do He will deny you.

I do not base my beliefe on logic at all. I believe our Father clothed Himself in flesh and dwelt among us as the Mighty Word. I believe our Father clothed in flesh as the Son died for our transgressions and redeemed man from sin. I believe He rose from the grave that could not hold Him.
I believe the Jesus is God Almighty!!

Who raised who from the dead? Did the Father raise Himself from the dead? No, it says:

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

The Father raised Jesus from the dead. Logically, is Jesus the Father? No.. Jesus was dead, whilst the Father was very much alive.

I don't think slepsog was denying His Word, he was denying your heresy.

 

[CarrierOfChrist]

Oh you guys, trying to figure out things of infinite nature with finite minds. This can lead to insanity, do you not know that? lol.

I'll try to explain it the way I learned from C.S. Lewis, from his book Mere Christianity:


Jesus was God's only begotten son. This wasn't talking about the virgin birth; this was talking about before nature was created at all... before time was even started!

Now, to beget something means to become the father of; like a man begets human babies, a bird begets eggs that turn into little birds, and so on. God didn't create His Son, because that wouldn't have made him God (although I'm sure He could've winged it!).

We, however, are not God, because we were not begotten, but CREATED by God. We're to God like what a statue is to us; a likeness, but not the same.

Now for the tricky part: the glue that holds Them together. This glue is something C.S. Lewis called dimensions. Now, if you have one single dimension, you can have only a straight line. If you have two, you could draw a figure (say, a square) made of straight lines on a flat surface. With three dimensions, we can have an actual solid body, like a cubed lump of sugar; made up of six squares, but still being one single lump of sugar.

This is where you find your "God glue" (hehe I made that one up). In His dimensions, there are three Beings (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) on a lower* dimension that make up one Being on a higher* dimension, like the 2D squares that make up the 3D sugar lump. That Being is God.

I believe that is how C.S. Lewis described it. I haven't read the book in a while. If it's heretical, please show me in the Bible the part that it's contradicting.



* I used "lower" and "higher" for lack of better words; I know "lower" isn't a good way to describe it, it's more like a parallel dimension.

 

[watchmen]

That's a heresy because it denies the pre-incarnate existance of the Son with God who was before Abraham. God created the earth through the Son. The Son was there in the beginning when God said let us .(plural)..

Once again you are wrong. Jesus did pre-exist. He was the ever exististing God of creation before the incarnation. The only true God, God the Father.

 

[MahogonySnail]

You said:

The Father was manifested as the Son.

If the Father was manifested as the Son, and if there is only one person, then the Son did not exist until He was manifested. But the Son was with God and everything was created through Him.

Jesus is not God the Father for a very simple reason - God is Spirit, Jesus is flesh.

Who do you think is at the right hand of the Father? Can someone be at the right hand of Himself?

Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Acts 7:56 shows two people in heaven, not one. Your views are easily disproven.

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Try and explain that one.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Here's the verse which says Jesus was with God before creation:

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus had glory with the Father, but was not the Father. That's a plain and simple reading of the verse.

 

[MahogonySnail]

'2 Persons of the Trinity'...So the 'Spirit of God' is a third like 33.33333etc??? Do you understand that God cannot be divided if He is divided, He cannot be God without peers, otherwise He has equal peers, two in fact according to Trinitarians. Read the scriptures, what does it say:

I think the number infinite would be more appropriate to represent God. Infinite divided by 3 is still infinite. Or if you like, 1^inf x 1^inf x1^inf = 1 where ^ represents to the power of. God the Father times God the Son times God the Spirit equals God.

Or probably the union (A = D) U (B=D) U (C=D) = D is a better representation where A, B, C are the names given to the persons Father, Son, Holy Spirit and D is God. A = D is read as God the Father, B = D is read God the Son etc. It is obvious that D U D U D = D and so the Trinity doctrine of "three persons of God who each are God by there own, but there is only one God" is easily proven mathematically. A person looking at the left side of the equation might wrongly conclude that there are three God's and that it is polytheism. But this is not correct. Polytheism is A U B U C = D. Although it is correct to say that A, B, C are of type D, and A=D, B= D, C = D, it is incorrect to say A = B = C = D since obviously A U B U C /= D where /= is does not equal. Polytheism could also be represented as 1^inf + 1^inf + 1^inf . So it is easily shown mathematically that the Trinity doctrine is not polytheism.

Oneness/modalism is 1^inf + 0^inf + 0^inf = 1^inf. Or, (A = B ) U (A = C) U (B = C) = D but obviously A U A U B /= D , B U C U C /= D and likewise for all combinations of Father is Son, Son is Father etc, , therefore Oneness is easily disproven mathematically.

So which spirit was was on the face of the waters, because Jesus Christ has seven and He created the heaven and earth by His word?

There is only one Spirit not seven. God the Father is Spirit, but we know that Jesus is flesh. Therefore Jesus cannot be the Father.

 

[watchmen]

Jesus is not God the Father for a very simple reason - God is Spirit, Jesus is flesh.

What is sad is that you claim the necessity of truly understanding the nature of God, and then continue to show you inability to do so. Jesus was God the Father manifest as the Son. ''The MAN Christ Jesus''